DVCPRO-HDeditor posted: And Jedi are also willing to order faceless, nameless soldiers to their deaths.
DVCPRO posted: Which, I'm trying to point out, is propaganda. Yes, the Sith did horrible things to win the war. But were the Jedi, or the Rebels, really any different?
DVCPRO posted: RocketGirl posted:...CT? I know OT and PT...whatinhell is the CT? That would be the Classic Trilogy.
RocketGirl posted:...CT? I know OT and PT...whatinhell is the CT?
DVCPRO posted: RocketGirl posted:In any case, they're freedom fighters, and everybody knows it. "It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it..." etc. "It's not like I love the Bush administration, I hate it..." (Just using a real-world analog, mind you.)
RocketGirl posted:In any case, they're freedom fighters, and everybody knows it. "It's not that I like the Empire, I hate it..." etc.
DVCPRO posted: Power is gained in order to be kept. Windu was willing to bypass the legal system and execute Palpatine. Yoda also attempted to assassinate a head of state. How is the "oppression" of the Sith (which we never see directly on screen, I'd like to point out) any different from the baby-snatching, mind-wiping, limb-chopping methods applied by the "heroic" Jedi?
DVCPRO posted: I'm not really trying to argue, but you've got to admit, this sort of discussion would make for a terrific film.
Jace Taran posted: I don't think we should focus on this era(and I'm sure RocketGirl will be opposed to the idea)
JT posted: Also, good Star Wars stories don't generally focus on just one aspect, so a story that is nothing but a Jedi/Sith struggle probably isn't the best way to go.
JT posted: It needs some diversity. Besides, we could do a story that has Jedi, Sith, and/or the Force in it without covering the Jedi/Sith war era, because that era has very, very few possibilities left. Somehow I imagine that anyone's attempt to cover that area is almost certain to hit pretty much every Jedi/Sith cliche in the book. I'd really rather not see another story about the war between the Jedi and the Sith, or some ancient artifact, or some Jedi tempted by the dark side.
jedsithor posted:As you guys know, George Lucas doesn't consider the EU to be part of the "movieverse". Instead he sees it as alternate universe, parrallel but separate to what he was doing with the movies. For example the history of the clone wars in the Heir to the Empire series differs greatly from wha we see in AOTC and ROTS, in the prequels, the republic has existed for 1000 years as opposed to the 25000 in EU...though even here, Lucas contradicted himself...Obi-Wan said 1000 generations, which would fit the EU timeline, but apparently Lucas either changed his mind or forgot that Kenobi said generations and not years. So, some people have wondered, what is Lucas' history of the Star Wars universe? Weill I've been doing some research, and quite frankly, there's not a lot to go on. Looking though things like Lucas' early work on the movies, comments he's made, early drafts of scripts, I tried to come up with a history of the Republic...this proved very, very difficult because there is so little information some of the characters have dual histories, one in Lucas' universe, one in the EU and they tend to get mixed up. Characters like Darth Bane and Darth Ruin were created by Lucas while working on the prequels and they have appeared in EU in similar roles to what Lucas imagined, but because of he nature of EU, there were noticable differences. So...the formation of the Republic....it was formed a thousand years before the movies, and before that the galaxy was ruled by the Sith...it's an untold story that would essentially destroy pre-movie EU if it was ever told...but what its it? Some of this comes from Lucas, and a few blanks are filled in with best guesses. It starts with the Jedi...a group who have been around for at least 2000 years, probably a lot longer than that. What the galaxy was like is unknown, but if we assume that the Jedi existed then as they do today, then they would have come from all over the galaxy, suggesting that Hperspace travel existed and was widely used. Planets were probably independant worlds, with no central government of a republic or empire, although some sort of loosely affiliated organisation like early versions of the European Union may have existed to facilitate trade between worlds. From what we've seen of the movies, humans seem to be the most common sentient species, suggesting that they may have colonised or even conquered other worlds...in a galaxy where it's every planet for themselves, interplanetary war could be a common occurance. Which leads me to the Sith, and the origin of the 2000+ number for the age of the Jedi Order. From Lucas' early work on the prequels and subsequent adaptations in the EU, we learn that the Sith were created 2000 years ago, which provies a minimum age for the Jedi...in reality, it could be more than 3 or 4 thousand years since the Jedi were formed. One thing we can say with relative certainty is that the lightsaber existed 2000 years before TPM, given that the Sith left the jedi Order at that point and have been seen to use lightsabers as weapons. The lightsaber has only ever been used by jedi or Sith apart from the likes of Grevious who took their lightsabers from Jedi. So, what happened? The first Sith was "Darth Ruin", who, along with over a thousand Jedi (though that number may be wrong), left the Jedi Order because of their use of the Dark Side of the Force. It's entirely possible that Darth Ruin was the rogue jedi's real name and that much like "Ceaser", future Sith took the name "Darth" as a rank or title, in honour of the first Sith. What happened afterwards is unknown...but at some point in the next thousand years, the Sith expanded their numbers and conquered the galaxy.The power of the Force, combined with the fact that planets were independant and unlikely to come to each other's aid, would have made this conquest relatively easy. But what about the Jedi? Couldn't they have prevented the Sith from ruling the galaxy? Sure...but we know from ROTS that the Sith did rule for a time and oppressed their subjects, most likely enslaving them. It may also explain how humans ended up all over the galaxy apart from colonisation and conquest, with humans from Coruscant, which I'm guessing is the human homeworld, it could be Corellia, being sent as slaves to work from the core worlds to the outer rim. So why didn't the jedi stop it from happening? Again, I'm speculating here, but my guess is that their beliefs at the time, prevented them from doing so...the Jedi believe in peace and practice the light side of the Force...they also believe in the will of the Force, so it's possible that they thought that Sith rule was simply meant to be, and besides that, they didn't believe in going to war. If that's true, then it's likely that the prophecy of the Chosen One originated around this time...after all there were no Sith until Darth Ruin so the Force would have been in balance at that point...but when the Sith ruled the galaxy, then a prophecy of someone born of the Force who would destroy them would probably have been first mentioned around this time. So the Jedi let the Sith rule the galaxy...but something changed...maybe they saw how dark the galaxy was becoming, maybe the sith attacked the Jedi, forcing them to respond...what's clear though is that initially, the Sih didn't see the jedi as a threat, otherwise they would have sought to wipe them out during their conquest of the galaxy...maybe the Sith and the jedi even had relations, given both groups affinity for the Force. At some point though, the Jedi were either forced to fight, or they realised they couldn't stand by and do nothing anymore...so they went to war. This is the full scale war that the governor of naboo mentions in AOTC. Of course at this point, the Sith are in full control of the galaxy so they would have near limitless resources, making me think that the war could have easily lasted a hundred years. it also seems to me that the jedi would have had small numbers....maybe the Sith allowed the jedi to search for padawans, though it seems unlikely given the Sith beliefs about the Dark Side. Also, the events of the clone wars show us that the jedi were more like military leaders, commanding armies, rather than an army themselves. So, what probably happened is that the Jedi attacked a single world and liberated it...then the freed slaves of that world volunteered to join the jedi in the fight against the sith...the jedi went to the next world and did the same...then the next and the next...the early part of the war would have been about that...freeing one world at a time, with the newly freed slaves joining the jedi's army, building up numbers. I would think they were outer rim worlds, which would have been easier to liberate than worlds closer to Coruscant, the Sith capital...you're probably wondering about korriban...well it's an EU world, and while the Sith may have been on a world like that during their early history, after Darth ruin left the jedi, but when they took over the galaxy, they would have moved to a more central world where they could govern from, and given Coruscants position in the movies, it's the most likely candidate. The question is though, how could the Sith have lost the war with the resources of an entire galaxy at their disposal? it's quite simple really. 1. The Sith oppressed and enslaved their subjects. Any force coming to liberate these people would have given them hope and many of them may have fled to join the jedi or even stayed and sabotaged Sith installations....I actually think this is the reason for the introduction of battle droids. The Sith, realising that they couldn't rely on these slaves, phased them out of the military and replaced them with droids...which as we know, are outmatched by free-thinking lifeforms. 2. The nature of the Dark Side. We know from Lucas and from the movies that the Sith want power and they will kill each other to get it. In fact is quite likely that during Sith Rule, Dark lords spent their time fighting each other...this is fine when there's no outside threat, because the strongest will emerge...but when you're at war and need every Sith on side, it can prove to be a liability. So the Sith fought the jedi and they fought each other. Which brings me to the end of the war, and to Darth Bane. Now, given that the jedi know of the rule of 2, it seems to me that Bane, the Sith who introduced the new way of thinking, was not only known by the Jedi, but was also a high ranking Sith. In fact i think he had his own Order 66 and destroyed the Sith. i actually discussed this with someone who was making a fan film about Bane, and I came up with the idea that Bane was the top man in the Sith regime and he gathered all of the Dark Lords on a world to discuss the jedi offensive, but instead, he bombarded the planet and killed them all, leaving him and his apprentice left as the last of the Sith. Another possibility is that Bane did with the droids what Sidious would later do with the clones, programming them to turn on the Sith. Whatever happened, Bane and his apprentice became the only Sith in the galaxy, with full command over the droid galaxy. Did Bane survive the war? Maybe, maybe not...it's possible that the first instance of the rule of two happened during the war with apprentice killing master, so bane died and his apprentice became the master and took on a new student. Ultimately, it doesn't matter...the jedi eventually reached Coruscant and defeated the Sith forces once and for all. If bane survived, he escaped and went into hiding, and the Sith would remain hidden for a thousand years until Darth Sidious revealed himself to Nute Gunray. So, the jedi liberate the Galaxy...what happens then? Well the ironic thing is, I think the Sith are the ones responsible for the Republic...before they came along the galaxy was divided, but the Sith united it through conquest and slavery, and then the jedi united freed worlds against the Sith. Now the liberated worlds could have gone their separate ways, but it's the aftermath of a war...a lot of rebuilding to be done and I think any world would have welcomed help from their neighbours...ultimately leading to the formation of a Galactic Republic with the Jedi, saviours of the galaxy, as its protectors. And that is the "Lucasverse" or as close to it as I think we can get....gotta say the Jedi/Sith war would make a kickass movie. So, here's what I think is a fairly accurate timeline, using the "BY" (Battle of yavin) calender from the EU.... Between 5000 and 2000 BBY: Hyperspace travel extends across the galaxy, the jedi order is formed. 2000 BBY: Darth Ruin leaves the Jedi Order and forms a new Sith Order Between 2000 and 1500 BBY: The Sith Order expands and conquers the galaxy. Between 1500 and 1000 BBY: Sith rule the galaxy, the Jedi go to war. In the last years of the war, Bane destroys rival Sith lords and creates Rule of Two 1000 BBY: Sith are defeated, the last of whom goes into hiding, Galactic Republic is formed. So, that's it...feel free to discuss.
RocketGirl posted:Yes, of course they were!
RocketGirl posted:But you'ren ot helping your case; Bush is evil too.
RocketGirl posted:Truthfully, the Jedi are not baby-snatchers; I'm sure parents are given the willing choice whether or not to give their children to the Order. Yoda attempted to assassinate a usurper of power, an illegitimate head of state. The Jedi do not lop off limbs without cause. They are nothing like the Sith. The similarity is superficial at best; the Jedi do the same things as the Sith sometimes, but with COMPLETELY different motivations.
RocketGirl posted:I think it's really hard to genuinely defend the Sith...I hate to invoke Godwin, but it's like trying to apologize for Hitler...
Jedsithor posted:Ok so here's my version of the "Lucasverse" history, which is what I'd base a Sith war movie on...and again, a disclaimer, this isn't EU. It's mostly generated from Lucas quotes, draft screenplays and notes, a lot of guesswork and stuff I just made up. Also it's essentially cut and pasted from the site I originally posted on, hence the reason the beginning seems like it's from a different topic: jedsithor posted:As you guys know, George Lucas doesn't consider the EU to be part of the "movieverse". Instead he sees it as alternate universe, parrallel but separate to what he was doing with the movies. For example the history of the clone wars in the Heir to the Empire series differs greatly from wha we see in AOTC and ROTS, in the prequels, the republic has existed for 1000 years as opposed to the 25000 in EU...though even here, Lucas contradicted himself...Obi-Wan said 1000 generations, which would fit the EU timeline, but apparently Lucas either changed his mind or forgot that Kenobi said generations and not years. So, some people have wondered, what is Lucas' history of the Star Wars universe? Weill I've been doing some research, and quite frankly, there's not a lot to go on. Looking though things like Lucas' early work on the movies, comments he's made, early drafts of scripts, I tried to come up with a history of the Republic...this proved very, very difficult because there is so little information some of the characters have dual histories, one in Lucas' universe, one in the EU and they tend to get mixed up. Characters like Darth Bane and Darth Ruin were created by Lucas while working on the prequels and they have appeared in EU in similar roles to what Lucas imagined, but because of he nature of EU, there were noticable differences. So...the formation of the Republic....it was formed a thousand years before the movies, and before that the galaxy was ruled by the Sith...it's an untold story that would essentially destroy pre-movie EU if it was ever told...but what its it? Some of this comes from Lucas, and a few blanks are filled in with best guesses. It starts with the Jedi...a group who have been around for at least 2000 years, probably a lot longer than that. What the galaxy was like is unknown, but if we assume that the Jedi existed then as they do today, then they would have come from all over the galaxy, suggesting that Hperspace travel existed and was widely used. Planets were probably independant worlds, with no central government of a republic or empire, although some sort of loosely affiliated organisation like early versions of the European Union may have existed to facilitate trade between worlds. From what we've seen of the movies, humans seem to be the most common sentient species, suggesting that they may have colonised or even conquered other worlds...in a galaxy where it's every planet for themselves, interplanetary war could be a common occurance. Which leads me to the Sith, and the origin of the 2000+ number for the age of the Jedi Order. From Lucas' early work on the prequels and subsequent adaptations in the EU, we learn that the Sith were created 2000 years ago, which provies a minimum age for the Jedi...in reality, it could be more than 3 or 4 thousand years since the Jedi were formed. One thing we can say with relative certainty is that the lightsaber existed 2000 years before TPM, given that the Sith left the jedi Order at that point and have been seen to use lightsabers as weapons. The lightsaber has only ever been used by jedi or Sith apart from the likes of Grevious who took their lightsabers from Jedi. So, what happened? The first Sith was "Darth Ruin", who, along with over a thousand Jedi (though that number may be wrong), left the Jedi Order because of their use of the Dark Side of the Force. It's entirely possible that Darth Ruin was the rogue jedi's real name and that much like "Ceaser", future Sith took the name "Darth" as a rank or title, in honour of the first Sith. What happened afterwards is unknown...but at some point in the next thousand years, the Sith expanded their numbers and conquered the galaxy.The power of the Force, combined with the fact that planets were independant and unlikely to come to each other's aid, would have made this conquest relatively easy. But what about the Jedi? Couldn't they have prevented the Sith from ruling the galaxy? Sure...but we know from ROTS that the Sith did rule for a time and oppressed their subjects, most likely enslaving them. It may also explain how humans ended up all over the galaxy apart from colonisation and conquest, with humans from Coruscant, which I'm guessing is the human homeworld, it could be Corellia, being sent as slaves to work from the core worlds to the outer rim. So why didn't the jedi stop it from happening? Again, I'm speculating here, but my guess is that their beliefs at the time, prevented them from doing so...the Jedi believe in peace and practice the light side of the Force...they also believe in the will of the Force, so it's possible that they thought that Sith rule was simply meant to be, and besides that, they didn't believe in going to war. If that's true, then it's likely that the prophecy of the Chosen One originated around this time...after all there were no Sith until Darth Ruin so the Force would have been in balance at that point...but when the Sith ruled the galaxy, then a prophecy of someone born of the Force who would destroy them would probably have been first mentioned around this time. So the Jedi let the Sith rule the galaxy...but something changed...maybe they saw how dark the galaxy was becoming, maybe the sith attacked the Jedi, forcing them to respond...what's clear though is that initially, the Sih didn't see the jedi as a threat, otherwise they would have sought to wipe them out during their conquest of the galaxy...maybe the Sith and the jedi even had relations, given both groups affinity for the Force. At some point though, the Jedi were either forced to fight, or they realised they couldn't stand by and do nothing anymore...so they went to war. This is the full scale war that the governor of naboo mentions in AOTC. Of course at this point, the Sith are in full control of the galaxy so they would have near limitless resources, making me think that the war could have easily lasted a hundred years. it also seems to me that the jedi would have had small numbers....maybe the Sith allowed the jedi to search for padawans, though it seems unlikely given the Sith beliefs about the Dark Side. Also, the events of the clone wars show us that the jedi were more like military leaders, commanding armies, rather than an army themselves. So, what probably happened is that the Jedi attacked a single world and liberated it...then the freed slaves of that world volunteered to join the jedi in the fight against the sith...the jedi went to the next world and did the same...then the next and the next...the early part of the war would have been about that...freeing one world at a time, with the newly freed slaves joining the jedi's army, building up numbers. I would think they were outer rim worlds, which would have been easier to liberate than worlds closer to Coruscant, the Sith capital...you're probably wondering about korriban...well it's an EU world, and while the Sith may have been on a world like that during their early history, after Darth ruin left the jedi, but when they took over the galaxy, they would have moved to a more central world where they could govern from, and given Coruscants position in the movies, it's the most likely candidate. The question is though, how could the Sith have lost the war with the resources of an entire galaxy at their disposal? it's quite simple really. 1. The Sith oppressed and enslaved their subjects. Any force coming to liberate these people would have given them hope and many of them may have fled to join the jedi or even stayed and sabotaged Sith installations....I actually think this is the reason for the introduction of battle droids. The Sith, realising that they couldn't rely on these slaves, phased them out of the military and replaced them with droids...which as we know, are outmatched by free-thinking lifeforms. 2. The nature of the Dark Side. We know from Lucas and from the movies that the Sith want power and they will kill each other to get it. In fact is quite likely that during Sith Rule, Dark lords spent their time fighting each other...this is fine when there's no outside threat, because the strongest will emerge...but when you're at war and need every Sith on side, it can prove to be a liability. So the Sith fought the jedi and they fought each other. Which brings me to the end of the war, and to Darth Bane. Now, given that the jedi know of the rule of 2, it seems to me that Bane, the Sith who introduced the new way of thinking, was not only known by the Jedi, but was also a high ranking Sith. In fact i think he had his own Order 66 and destroyed the Sith. i actually discussed this with someone who was making a fan film about Bane, and I came up with the idea that Bane was the top man in the Sith regime and he gathered all of the Dark Lords on a world to discuss the jedi offensive, but instead, he bombarded the planet and killed them all, leaving him and his apprentice left as the last of the Sith. Another possibility is that Bane did with the droids what Sidious would later do with the clones, programming them to turn on the Sith. Whatever happened, Bane and his apprentice became the only Sith in the galaxy, with full command over the droid galaxy. Did Bane survive the war? Maybe, maybe not...it's possible that the first instance of the rule of two happened during the war with apprentice killing master, so bane died and his apprentice became the master and took on a new student. Ultimately, it doesn't matter...the jedi eventually reached Coruscant and defeated the Sith forces once and for all. If bane survived, he escaped and went into hiding, and the Sith would remain hidden for a thousand years until Darth Sidious revealed himself to Nute Gunray. So, the jedi liberate the Galaxy...what happens then? Well the ironic thing is, I think the Sith are the ones responsible for the Republic...before they came along the galaxy was divided, but the Sith united it through conquest and slavery, and then the jedi united freed worlds against the Sith. Now the liberated worlds could have gone their separate ways, but it's the aftermath of a war...a lot of rebuilding to be done and I think any world would have welcomed help from their neighbours...ultimately leading to the formation of a Galactic Republic with the Jedi, saviours of the galaxy, as its protectors. And that is the "Lucasverse" or as close to it as I think we can get....gotta say the Jedi/Sith war would make a kickass movie. So, here's what I think is a fairly accurate timeline, using the "BY" (Battle of yavin) calender from the EU.... Between 5000 and 2000 BBY: Hyperspace travel extends across the galaxy, the jedi order is formed. 2000 BBY: Darth Ruin leaves the Jedi Order and forms a new Sith Order Between 2000 and 1500 BBY: The Sith Order expands and conquers the galaxy. Between 1500 and 1000 BBY: Sith rule the galaxy, the Jedi go to war. In the last years of the war, Bane destroys rival Sith lords and creates Rule of Two 1000 BBY: Sith are defeated, the last of whom goes into hiding, Galactic Republic is formed. So, that's it...feel free to discuss. So that's the history I came up with and if I was to do a Sith War movie, I'd base it on that. However it would be mostly background info. Like the rebellion, I'd tell the story from the point of view of a small number of characters, and focus on their journey throughout the war.
backdeskproductions posted: THAT'S what I was going for! Of course it would be original, we'd have to create our own conflicts and heroes. Not too hard to do if you're skilled at thinking things out. I always had this picture in my head of the Sith (resembling Oakland Raiders fans) charging full sprint across the plains of a dark shadowy world towards an army of Jedi or Jedi affiliated characters... with lightsabers drawn. Then the battle begins. THAT would kick ass.
MarcusDade posted: Secondly: No offense to you, RocketGirl, but why do you always have to enter the thread with the same exact "Movies about Jedi and Sith suck," argument?
MD posted: Frankly, it's gotten to the point where it just makes me want to slap you.
MD posted: We know your view on the whole jedi and sith films, please drop it already?
DVCPRO-HDeditor posted: It's all about perspective, I suppose.
DVCPRO posted: Again: perspective, perspective, perspective. It's religious intolerance on a genocidal level. "We don't agree with your beliefs, so we're going to wipe out everyone who believes like you do and set up our power base within sight of the seat of galactic power."
DVCPRO posted: And it's rather hard to defend the Rebellion . . . . it's like trying to apologize for Fat Man & Little Boy.
DVCPRO posted: Maybe that's why the Galactic Civil War is so "untouched" by fan films - the only really interesting story to tell in the modern climate is, essentially, to turn the war on its ear.
DVCPRO posted: The Senate was corrupt, as was the Chancellor's office. If nothing else, Palpatine's rise to power took hold of the corruption and then eliminated it.
DVCPRO posted: I'd love to see a fan film about Imperial loyalists following the Battle of Endor. After all, they were on the losing side, but still aren't convinced it was the wrong one.