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Topic:
15K budget camera
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PixelMitch
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/9 9:38pm
Subject:
15K budget camera
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Okay, so a local studio I work in conjunction with is about to purchase a lot of new equipment, in which a camera has been budgeted $15,000. I know you guys know so much about cameras and such, so I thought it would be helpful to see your take on the whole thing - it is a bit out of my league because I have never had that kind of money for a video camera. But I thought it would be helpful if I could offer him some advice.
I mentioned the Red One, but he was saying that with all the lenses and fixing it comes to to much, so not this time around.
Right now, they are looking at the Panasonic HVX AG 200; however I think they may get 2.
So my impression is, if its an extremely amazing camera for more expensive, they would possibly settle for that (a single one), or perhaps two cheaper prosumer cameras that can get the job done.
Anyway, I'm just looking for advice, and the different options that are out there, which are worth considering!
Thanks a lot 
-mitch
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bgii_2000
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
6/9 9:54pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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The latest and greatest (that isn't the RED if you alread ruled that out) is the Sony XDCAM EX-1. You could get two of those.
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Foamy-the-Freaka-dog
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
6/9 10:19pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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http://www.dv.com/
usually has some good equipment reviews...
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Master_Comyn
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
6/10 4:15am
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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I've heard some bad things about XDCam, when compared to P2, from a lot of shooters nationwide. Most are skeptical about just the data writing to the cards. The same Gigabyte level SxS card and P2 card for Panasonic's line, and the Sony's are getting two to three times as many minutes onto theirs, so you know they've gotta be compressing the heck out of it.
That's just what I've heard and has seemed to be the general consensus among over a dozen shooters I've worked with in the past couple months. Don't take it a fact, but it gives you a place to start looking.
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-Spiff-
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/10 6:37am
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
- Date Edited:
6/10 6:41am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
-Spiff-
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Conversely, I've heard a lot of good things about the XDcam format, but haven't really looked for footage.
The EX-1 has a few advantages over the HVX200, including lower noise, 3 full 1920x1080 CMOS chips and full 1920x1080 (4:2:0) and 1280x720 (4:2:0) recording at 35 Mbps long GOP MPEG-2. In comparison, the HVX200 has 3 960x540 CCD chips and records 1280x1080 (4:2:2) and 960x540 (4:2:2) at 100 Mbps DVCPRO-HD. The EX-1 thus produces a higher resolution, lower noise signal.
The disadvantage of the EX-1 would be a rolling-shutter CMOS over a the frame-transfer CCD in the HVX. The long GOP codec may add artifacting over the HVX, but it's difficult to gauge due to the increased compression efficiency.
Both have variable frame rates and progressive scan. The EX-1 has 1-30 fps selectable in 1080p and 1-60 fps in 720p, while the HVX is restricted to 1-60 fps in 720p only. I have no idea about the quality of their audio options.
I would go to a camera store and check both out for ergonomics and balance. I would also suggest looking over at dvinfo.net and other forums for workflow information. You could also look into the Canon XL-H1, though it's getting a little dated.
-Spiff
EDIT: And before someone touts the "4:2:2 colour resolution" of the HVX as an advantage, keep in mind that since the chips are only 1/2 the vertical resolution of 1080p, they cannot effectively generate 1080 lines of chroma detail. In other words, even though the DVCPRO-HD codec is 4:2:2, at best, the chips can only generate 4:2:0. Moreover, if one was to use a more correct sampling notation, the EX-1 would have 1920x1080 4:2:0, while the HVX would have 1920x1080 2.67:1.33:0 in terms of actual resolution in 1080p.
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-Spiff-
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/10 8:11am
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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Sony has also recently produced the EX-3, which is a step up from the EX-1 with interchangeable lenses.
By this time next year, hopefully the discussion will be moot and we'll all be recommending Scarlet.
-Spiff
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bgii_2000
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
6/10 11:51am
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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Panasonic is supposed to have a whole new line that replaces the HVX200 anyway.
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-Spiff-
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/10 12:15pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
- Date Edited:
6/10 12:16pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
-Spiff-
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Panasonic hasn't announced a replacement for the HVX200 yet, and the only additional product within PixelMitch's price range appears to be the HPX500.
Panasonic is moving towards an "AVC-Intra" format, but they don't seem to have sub $20k equipment with that feature set... and when you do get to their higher end stuff, you should look closely at a RED ONE.
-Spiff
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bgii_2000
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
6/10 12:37pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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I guess it never actually showed up, but Panasonic was talking about the HMC-150 at NAB. I suppose it's not really a replacement for the HVX-200.
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-Spiff-
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/10 1:18pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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Yeah - the HMC-150 is more like a DVX100 replacement than an HVX replacement.
-Spiff
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Darth_Abdax
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/10 1:26pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
- Date Edited:
6/10 1:29pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Darth_Abdax
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What about these?
HVX200a
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/hvx200a/
The HVX200a looks more like the direct replacement to the HVX.
But then the HPX170 supposedly performs better, at a more DVX like form factor.
HPX170
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/hpx170/
A closer look at the HPX170's features
http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/article.php/12
I don't see any prices yet though.
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-Spiff-
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/10 2:12pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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Judging from the fact that I can't find the HPX-170s CCD resolutions, whereas they published the resolutions of their other cameras as being "full native 1920x1080", I can only assume that they're not, and are playing the pixel-shifting game again.
If I was in the market for a camera as an upgrade in the next couple of years, I'd go for Scarlet. If I had to buy one right now, I'd be frustrated by the compromises offered by Sony, Panasonic and Canon.
$15k should get PixelMitch a pretty awesome solid-state camcorder though, regardless as to whether he jumps on the Sony/Panasonic bandwagon.
-Spiff
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PixelMitch
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/10 2:43pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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Thanks for all the advice thus far.
So far from the comments, I've gathered that both the Sony XDCAM EX-1 and HVX200 would be great buys?
Or is there anything else really worth considering in the price range?
I wish I could contribute more to the conversation, but really all I can do is listen and relay, since, as I said, these are a bit out of my league. But please don't think I'm not paying attention! I really appreciate the advice.
-mitch
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-Spiff-
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/10 3:11pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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For Panasonics, rather than HVX200, look for the HVX200a or the HPX-170 - they're basically updated models of the HVX200. You might also consider the HPX500.
On the Sony front, consider the EX-1 and EX-3.
-Spiff
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PixelMagic
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/10 4:31pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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Won't it be fantastic when computers and storage are so powerful, that footage will never be compressed? I'm so sick of compromises on recording formats, but I understand that with the current state of technology, it's an evil necessity.
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-Spiff-
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
6/10 5:04pm
Subject:
RE: 15K budget camera
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I don't think that time will ever come. Ultimately, you can get more quality for your data rate if you compress the data. Moreover, as the image resolution increases, the additional information becomes more redundant, allowing even further compression to be implemented.
Would you rather 1080p uncompressed, or Redcode RAW 4k? Uncompressed 4k or compressed 8k? Compression gives a bigger advantage the higher in data rate and resolution you go.
-Spiff
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