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Author	Topic: LCC VI Winners Announced!
Master_Comyn Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 6/13 4:35am Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	-Phi- posted: Will there be judges' reviews for the other ten entries? Yes, we will be posting similar reviews soon, as we right them. I'd say look for them by the end of the weekend. As for this voting thing, I agree that simple is best. But I don't see the 3-2-1 scheme as being more simple or, for that matter, better than a traditional voting scheme where 1st, 2nd, and 3rd are decided by the votes' cascading order. Other than that, the only thing I would've changed is the emphasis on choreography alone. The rules state that you can use effects, story, music, whatever you want, so long as there's choreography. This led to many people submitting whole fanfilms with very little choreography. Next year, to keep things more competitive, I'd like to see people focus less on scripted lines, costumes, force lightning effects, and focus more on the traditional "two guys meet at a location to beat the hell out of each other". That's been the winning formula for how long? Furthermore, many of the reviews to date have reviewed editing, story, effects, etc. Why? -----signature----- "What we cannot reach flying, we must reach limping. The Book tells us it is no sin to limp." What IS Meatball? Stuck Up Avid User, and PROUD of it!
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-Spiff- Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 6/13 9:08am Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced! - Date Edited: 6/13 9:13am (1 edits total) Edited By: -Spiff-
	Master_Comyn posted: As for this voting thing, I agree that simple is best. But I don't see the 3-2-1 scheme as being more simple or, for that matter, better than a traditional voting scheme where 1st, 2nd, and 3rd are decided by the votes' cascading order. First off - let me apologize for being a little bit pissed off about this, but the amount of effort that goes into producing these fights is extreme, even if the fights aren't any good. I know, because I've done it 5 times (4x for PwNN, 1x for Eclipse). For that I applaud all entrants. However, it seems to me that not organizing a proper voting structure or algorithm, and presenting it along with the results, makes a very hollow victory for those people who would like to be ranked. While it is a great feeling to be rewarded by a panel of 2 experts, it is not the same as literally 210 people (I added them) indicating their preference. The voting algorithm does not have to be opaque, and it's perfectly acceptable to post the raw data. However, the voting algorithm should be both part of the official rules and published. To say there was something wrong with the voting is foolish, because there wasn't. There was NOTHING WRONG WITH THE IMPLEMENTATION OF THE WEBSITE. I know this, not only because bgi_2000's code is fine, but because there are exactly 210 votes for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. I have little respect for the statistical proficiency of those of you saying a 3-2-1 weighting scheme isn't "simple". Not only has it been done in previous LCCs, but it is integer addition/multiplication. People ranked the entries, and every person voted for 3 different entries, nominating a 1st, 2nd and 3rd place. If this kind of analysis is troubling to you, then perhaps you need to do more data analysis. Sure, I agree with -Phi- on the algorithm, not just based on her mathematical qualifications, but because it actually makes sense. Again, I apologize for being rude. Master_Comyn* posted: Furthermore, many of the reviews to date have reviewed editing, story, effects, etc. Why? You detail exactly why in your in your analysis "Logistics" and "Entertainment" categories. Without good editing, story, and effects, the fight is just literally two people bashing each other with no context in terms of character. I think it is better to think about cinematic fights as ballet - expressing a character study through physical movement and non-vocal acting. -Spiff She's a professional statistician whose job it is to analyse survey methodology* -----signature----- Eclipse SE now available: http://boards.theforce.net/fan_films/b10015/28647876/p1/?26 Spiff(x, \|x-Phi\|<small) = twitterpated FREE THE QUARKS!!!
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Ryan_W Title: Fan Films: Emmy-Winning Lightsaber Geek Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/13 12:22pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	Exactly right. It would really make no sense to vote for just one and rank based on that. Once you get past first place is where it always gets the most interesting. The weighted ranking works great, and should be implemented next year, just as in previous years. -----signature----- http://www.RyanVsDorkman.com
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ObiJuan2080 Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 6/13 1:39pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced! - Date Edited: 6/13 1:40pm (1 edits total) Edited By: ObiJuan2080
	Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Phi's a chick?? -----signature----- Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. NEW SITE: http://www.mindscapefilms.net http://www.sabercomp.com "Idiots: It's a world-wide phenomenon" - Master_Cormyn
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Master_Comyn Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 6/13 1:40pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	-Spiff- posted: While it is a great feeling to be rewarded by a panel of 2 experts, it is not the same as literally 210 people (I added them) indicating their preference. Actually, there were four of us who decided unanimously on the entries, and I'd hardly call us professional. -Spiff- posted: However, the voting algorithm should be both part of the official rules and published. Agreed, and after thinking more about the 3-2-1 scheme, not to mention Phi's qualifications, I concede. Now we hug. -Spiff- posted: You detail exactly why in your in your analysis "Logistics" and "Entertainment" categories. Without good editing, story, and effects, the fight is just literally two people bashing each other with no context in terms of character. I was referring to the logistics, authenticity, and entertainment of the choreography itself, not the overall film. And two people bashing sticks without effects or backstory can still amount to a good fight. Look at our first and second place winners (granted RvB2 had some minor effects to help the story along). However, I will grant that you have a point on the editing. Tight editing can help the pacing of a fight. -----signature----- "What we cannot reach flying, we must reach limping. The Book tells us it is no sin to limp." What IS Meatball? Stuck Up Avid User, and PROUD of it!
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-Spiff- Registered: Jun '05	Date Posted: 6/13 2:52pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	ObiJuan2080 posted: Phi's a chick?? Also my wife We met filming Eclipse for LCC3. -Spiff -----signature----- Eclipse SE now available: http://boards.theforce.net/fan_films/b10015/28647876/p1/?26 Spiff(x, \|x-Phi\|<small) = twitterpated FREE THE QUARKS!!!
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ObiJuan2080 Registered: Jan '04	Date Posted: 6/13 3:24pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	There you go folks. The LCC, where people fight and then get married. -----signature----- Ash nazg durbatulûk, ash nazg gimbatul, ash nazg thrakatulûk agh burzum-ishi krimpatul. NEW SITE: http://www.mindscapefilms.net http://www.sabercomp.com "Idiots: It's a world-wide phenomenon" - Master_Cormyn
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Master_Comyn Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 6/13 3:35pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	I was wondering if you two were romantically involved, with the way you came sailing to her rescue. Good job, Spiff! -----signature----- "What we cannot reach flying, we must reach limping. The Book tells us it is no sin to limp." What IS Meatball? Stuck Up Avid User, and PROUD of it!
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bgii_2000 Registered: Jan '05	Date Posted: 6/13 8:44pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	Hence the whole "Spiff(x, \|x-Phi\|<small) = twitterpated" thing. -----signature----- The circle is now complete. When I left you I was but the learner. Now I am the master. My website, blog, and movies http://www.theBradPlace.net What IS meatball? Holy crap I'm learning things everyday. - JeffCaauwe
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VaporTrail Registered: May '02	Date Posted: 6/14 10:25am Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	-Spiff- posted: We met filming Eclipse for LCC3. Aha! So he admits it! That's right, Spiffy Edition. We just had LCC Six. Granted, I haven't gone back and finished an HD cut of my entry from last year, but I'll have you know I did have an excellent audio mix for it on my old computer, which Vegas decided it didn't want to open once I transferred everything to this system. So there's my excuse. //taps toe impatiently -Vaportrail -----signature----- It's not about how the story ends. It's about how they get there. http://www.youtube.com/vaportrailfilms http://thespenceleyspoileriffic.blogspot.com/
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Laszlo Registered: Nov '06	Date Posted: 6/16 4:04am Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	Oh well... may as well post my expanded reviews: THE CONTENDERS 1st Place 10th Entry: Ryan_W & BrandonFlyte aka RvB2 It would give me great pleasure to pick apart it's faults, but even jaded Laz haz to admit it's the most solid fight of this year. One does not go into the best steakhouse in the land and complain that you're bored with beef, after all. If I had to describe my singular gripe is that it feels very ‘clinical’; I don't think there's as much raw originality in this entry as a winning entry should possess. It does make up for that in production values and the duel is cleanly and clearly presented. There were more creative bits than RvB (1), thanks to the use of the environment (yay!) and a better use of 3D space than even Ryan vs Dorkman 2 at some points. 2nd Place 12th Entry: Whiteley79 Personally I was biased towards hoping Whitley had improved an already impressive duel in the last LCC. Not quite. The fight is pretty raw and visceral, and I'm really convinced the characters want to do damage to each other, unlike the more light-hearted entry below or the more clinical entry above. I like how they incorporate new moves - like the reverse hilt-bash at 00:55 – without breaking a beat. There are no un-natural pauses for the audience’s benefit because it’s just two guys out to murder each other, not put on a juggling show. The only pause results in a desperation move, leading to a victory and I really appreciate that. There's still a good narrative within the fight, but the 'characters' are not as distinct in their styles as 'RvB 2' and for me that's the clincher as to why these guy’s don’t win. It’s a catch 22: You can’t tell them apart because of the lack of flourish, but the lack of flourish is what makes me enjoy the entry so much. 3rd Place 4th Entry: FSFilms # 1 aka Neon Warriors of the Night Ahhh a lot of flash here but can we find any substance? Lost of nos but a couple yeses. The Masked Brawl (heh, I just made that up) sequence was a good change from the 1 v 1 matches, and even looked better than Planet With no Name’s multiple fighting at first glance… and yet it felt a little off. It took me a moment to realise that it was the strikes, especially the lethal ones, were WAY off the mark in terms of realism. The saber effects almost had me fooled but few of those cuts look really threatening. This could have easily been resolved by using half-length dowels for the leads to still block, but rotoscoping them to full length for the kills. The following fight with the 'mini bosses' were OK. Entertaining but not really groundbreaking, what cool moves I could glean were lost in the saturated color scheme and the shakey cam. I like the idea of the saber-resistant armour but his partner wasn’t distinctive enough a threat for me to care about the other half of the sequence. What really stood out for me was the fight with the 'Lord Duke Esq.', where the leads shared use of one saber between them. THAT was brilliant and original, whereas everything was derivative. Ignoring the other fights and focusing on that one, this entry clearly beat the others under it. The other fights within the entry are just decoration, IMO. HONORABLE MENTIONS 2nd Entry: Darkpitaman This entry is a good example of solid planning hampered by amateur execution. What I meant to say is, the choreo was good but the actors are not fighters enough to execute the moves with a level of intensity capable of unseating the competition. And it’s frustrating to me because I can see what they want to do, as the pure form choreo. Only the fight fails to entertain. It does, however, succeed in informing; it feel to me as if I’m watching a well-executed choreography test video meant to refine concepts or be taken over by the stunt team who would add flourish. 7th Entry: Jacob Landis-Eigsti aka Jacob vs. Michael Some very very odd editing and cinematography here but… you know I kind of like it for being so experimental. It makes the fight much more chaotic and kept me believing I was dangerously close to the action… and it’s an impressive feet from a pair of lousy fighters. Like Darkpitaman’s entry above I’d like to see how the team could take advantage of a real physical actor or martial artist; they could be the next Bourne film directors. And of all the finishing moves, this entry’s was my favourite. “Hey you missed!” grab slash “No I didn’t”. 9th Entry: ResidentOfEvil aka The Resistance Hah, there’s always one entry that tries to be a fan film at the same time. So yea, style points that are immediately back up but some very very nice speed. I like speed. The first fright break could have been better shot & edited though, the good pacing dies under the harsh light of… nothing. I don’t care about what kind of boots the apprentice Sith is wearing. Gaaah!! It ends just as it was getting’ great! sulks THE MEH ENTRIES 1st Entry: BruceM I do appreciate the fact that these guys tried, with their limited skills, to create something cinematic. And they come close to succeeding; I can easily pick out bits that I like, say 1:20 – 1:22, but we have to get to the fighting at some point. The horrid editing doesn’t help. But you know I don’t believe these guy were not stick-bashing. There was choreography buried somewhere - derivative choreo, sure, but they’re limited by their inexperience. There’s a kernel of potential buried in the grain of the compression, but there’s quite some time yet before it blooms. 3rd Entry: Demogoblin2 A failed attempts at a cat & mouse game peppered between badly framed confrontations of awkward saber handling. First off, lousy music choice as it kills any sense of suspense. Secondly, really bad weapon choice; I get the feeling they would have preferred a gunplay sequence but had to settle for sabers. 5th Entry: FSFilms # 2 This was kind of cute. And I enjoyed the fight immensely, but not so much the choreography (sorry) as I appreciated the swashbuckling cinematography. 6th Entry: Tim DeHaas aka Hondorum Well here’s logo that takes dammed forever… and with a long walk it’s nearly a minute until the first saber clash. Not the best use of your time. There’s some fun use of the roving camera, but ultimately what’s being filmed is stick-bashing, in that few of the strikes look like they’ll seriously connect. In such narrow corridors European style fencing would have been more appropriate, since the constant high swings look blocky and clumsy. Then there’s over a minute of credits. sigh 8th Entry: Ramsaur Yea… we have some guys who are somewhat physically comfortable with the moves but it’s wasted on more stick bashing. 11th Entry: StickGuyProductions aka The Hunt Well… two minutes in no fight… three minutes in still no fight… four minutes! Can I go home yet? And yea what I see wasn’t worth the wait. Best parts are the grab & redirects, but they’re never followed up on. And the gun sequence is utterly out of place here. The opposite of Demogoblin2’s entry. 13th Entry: Tyson Benard aka Near Escape Huh… odd choice of opening. The guy in black does have some decent skills on him, only the cinematography isn’t well enough to show him off. It’s interesting that he’s got just a wooden demeanour yet can tumble so well. -----signature----- Tactical Film Maker http://www.key-pixel.com
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Jacoblandiseigsti Registered: Jun '08	Date Posted: 6/16 4:16pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	hey, thanks for the review. I will keep it (as well as the reviews of many others) in mind as I dream up new fights and polish my own before I post it online again. I don't know if I would call Mike Russell a lousy fighter though, he's pretty good at kung-foo,rather athletic, doing cool stuff like wall runs and jumps, and he is pretty scary with his two lightsabers. I would be afraid to fight him. I haven't fought myself, but I definitely spent many hours swinging those blades around trying to become a faster and better fighter. For anyone who has not seen it I have an untouched version of the fastest parts, as well as a blooper reel of the fight, since people said they were interested in seeing it with no camera shake or black and white. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slWa3kel30o I am directing the next video I do however, behind the camera doing camera work, choreography and effects with people who have years of training with fighting. Really enjoyed being in the competition and parts of the conversation. I can't wait for LCC VII!
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Vidina Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 6/16 4:55pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	MY JUDGE REVIEWS 1st Place: ENTRY 10 - Ryan Wieber VS Brandon Flyte (AKA RvB2) Choreography-wise, there's no doubt that this wins first place. Once again, Ryan and his team ups the bar for all the others, by integrating environment in a damn good way, and using more brute force than ever before. There was a couple of flaws, but nothing that really catches the eye, and they all needed more than 5 viewings to even spot, and apart from that, the choreography is perfect. The reason this entry wins. When it comes to cinematography, these guys continue to amaze me in every aspect, from orbital cams, to the Bourne shaky cams. The cuts are near-perfect (the kick in the back cut could use a little work), but let's face it. Cinematography doesn't count here. It just helps. I don't have any more concerning this entry that's not already been covered, so my closing line is; good job. Authenticity: 10/10 Logistics: 10/10 Entertainment: 10/10 Total: 30/30 2nd Place: ENTRY 12 - Whiteley_79 I liked your previous entry, and was looking forward to this. I'm surprised you didn't add a story this time around, but it's a choreography contest, so it doesn't matter. As the others have pointed out, there's next to no flaws in this, the choreograpy is good, and the only real opening results in a killing blow. It really looks like you're out to kill each other, which is a good thing. There's some things that keeps the 1st place from this entry, which is lack of creativity. I'm not calling you lame in any way, it's just that all the moves you pulled, I feel I've seen before. Not necessarily in that order, but there's nothing new to it. It's just really solid put together, which secures the second place. Authenticity: 10/10 Logistics: 9.5/10 Entertainment: 8/10 Total: 27.5/30 3rd Place: ENTRY 4 - FSFilms Entry 1 (AKA Neon Warriors of the night) Although I like the second entry too(bar the ending, wth is up with that?), the first one really had me going all the way through. The cinematography, the cuts, the music, the choreography. The choreography had a lot of flaws, which makes you guys wind up as my 3rd choice for winning, but the choreography sure had originality. The whole sharing-saber part was kick ass, and damn original. It sells great, but it has it's flaws. All-in-all, a solid entry, with great choreography. It would've gotten my 1st place choice if it wasn't for some overcranking(at least it looks damn much like it), and some obvious flaws where both contenders' lives could've ended real fast. Authenticity: 8/10 Logistics: 8/10 Entertainment: 10/10 Total: 26/30 If any more would like reviews, let me know, and I'll tell you what are my reasons for not ranking you top 3. -----signature----- Originally registered 9/13/03 - eLto http://twitter.com/Vidina http://www.youtube.com/tomellingsen Video Tutorials: http://www.aurellia.net
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Whiteley79 Registered: Mar '06	Date Posted: 6/16 6:52pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced! - Date Edited: 6/16 6:55pm (1 edits total) Edited By: Whiteley79
	Laszlo posted: 2nd Place 12th Entry: Whiteley79 Personally I was biased towards hoping Whitley had improved an already impressive duel in the last LCC. Not quite. The fight is pretty raw and visceral, and I'm really convinced the characters want to do damage to each other, unlike the more light-hearted entry below or the more clinical entry above. I like how they incorporate new moves - like the reverse hilt-bash at 00:55 – without breaking a beat. There are no un-natural pauses for the audience’s benefit because it’s just two guys out to murder each other, not put on a juggling show. The only pause results in a desperation move, leading to a victory and I really appreciate that. There's still a good narrative within the fight, but the 'characters' are not as distinct in their styles as 'RvB 2' and for me that's the clincher as to why these guy’s don’t win. It’s a catch 22: You can’t tell them apart because of the lack of flourish, but the lack of flourish is what makes me enjoy the entry so much. The reactions to the ending have completely surprised me in the fact that they are all positive. Right after the long wrap-around shot, our battery was dying. We litterally shot the last shot in one take, with hardly any rehearsal. I thought people were gonna hate it because of the shot, angle, and abrupt ending. But hey, it worked and we were able to finish in time. As for any kind of style the characters had, we intentionally kept them brief. Knowing this wasnt going to result in the best of duels, we decided not to focus so much on that, but rather just show a good fight. If there is any kind of style, It is that I (the big guy) must be able to keep up on the offensive so that Shane (the leaner guy) could'nt out maneuver me. Which, of course, is how he wins. Vidina posted: MY JUDGE REVIEWS 2nd Place: ENTRY 12 - Whiteley_79 I liked your previous entry, and was looking forward to this. I'm surprised you didn't add a story this time around, but it's a choreography contest, so it doesn't matter. As the others have pointed out, there's next to no flaws in this, the choreograpy is good, and the only real opening results in a killing blow. It really looks like you're out to kill each other, which is a good thing. There's some things that keeps the 1st place from this entry, which is lack of creativity. I'm not calling you lame in any way, it's just that all the moves you pulled, I feel I've seen before. Not necessarily in that order, but there's nothing new to it. It's just really solid put together, which secures the second place. Authenticity: 10/10 Logistics: 9.5/10 Entertainment: 8/10 Total: 27.5/30 I wish there was time to craft a small story, but we did this in too short of time. We actually cut the production time of FSFilms' second entry almost in half. As they must know, when its like that, you can only worry about the essentials. Thanks for taking the time to review. -----signature----- -WINTER DUEL- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNbszDDM1hg -LCCV ENTRY 13- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC8alCDCEfs
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Vidina Registered: Jan '06	Date Posted: 6/17 12:10pm Subject: RE: LCC VI Winners Announced!
	Whiteley79 posted: Thanks for taking the time to review. I'm a judge. Kinda had to -----signature----- Originally registered 9/13/03 - eLto http://twitter.com/Vidina http://www.youtube.com/tomellingsen Video Tutorials: http://www.aurellia.net
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