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Topic:
Hey, all you editor-types...
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beafet
Title: Webmaster
Jacksonville, NC FanForce
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
7/8 11:57am
Subject:
Hey, all you editor-types...
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If one were to make a free alternative to FCP, Avid, Premiere, Smoke, and Vegas...what would you like it to be capable of? What are some of the best things you have seen implemented in other high-end NLE's? What would you rather do without? I need some feedback from people who have actually used professional NLE's for a FOSS project. I will pass this info onto the people who are actually designing the NLE.
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
7/8 12:10pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
- Date Edited:
7/8 12:10pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DorkmanScott
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-Native 24p support, including the ability to remove pulldown (standard 3:2 and advanced 2:3:3:2) intelligently, and the ability to re-introduce pulldown on export
-Native MXF (P2) support (I'd settle for a "log and transfer" import like FCP)
-Native image sequence support for the major formats (png, tif, tga; dpx wouldn't hurt you)
-Native REDCODE support (the RED SDK should be coming out soon)
-Background rendering/processing
-Resolution independent timelines
-32-bit image processing
-Support for FXplug or AE plugins
-Decent audio tools right on the timeline (as much as I hate Vegas, they do have this)
Those are the main ones I can think of wanting, besides the obvious (cutting, trimming, rolling, slipping, real-time transitions, etc.).
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 Obama/Biden 2008 Let's bring back America. http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com Check out my blog: http://dorkmanscott.blogspot.com
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-Spiff-
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
7/8 12:29pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
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The most important things for an NLE:
- Codec support, including uncompressed, Huffyuv, Cineform, Redcode RAW, XDCAM, DVCPRO, HDV, AVC-HD, DV
- Variable time-line frame rates (with presents for 23.976, 24, 25, 29.97, 50i, 59.94)
- 2:3 pull-down reversal and 2:3:3:2 pull-down reversal
- 4:4:4 colour processing in 16 bit-per colour channel or higher (32-bit float preferable)
- Colour processing in gamma-correct linear colour space.
- Supports nested time lines
- Support for high precision audio editing (i.e., audio time units should be significantly smaller than frame time units)
- Chroma deartifacting filters (for 4:1:1, 4:2:0, 4:2:2)
- Adaptive deinterlacing options
- Time resampling options.
That's all I can think of for the moment.
-Spiff
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Eclipse SE now available: http://boards.theforce.net/fan_films/b10015/28647876/p1/?26 Spiff(x, |x-Phi|<small) = twitterpated FREE THE QUARKS!!!
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AdamBertocci
Title: Manager: Fan Films
Registered:
Feb '02
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Date Posted:
7/8 12:30pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
- Date Edited:
7/8 12:31pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
AdamBertocci
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Techie things don't bother me. I assume that a free NLE would not be for the high-end editor or filmmaker anyway. Or maybe you're suggesting it still would? I don't know.
For interface/capability things... you know, I've never used any of the free NLEs, the iMovies and Windows Movie Makers of the world, so _for all I know_ they've got these. But nonetheless:
- Ability to have multiple timelines in the same project, nest them and such.
- Being able to make subclips and those sorts of relationships between unrelated files in your project.
- Composite modes (multiply, screen, transfer etc.)
- The ability to add plugins like transitions and filters and stuff, the way you can with other programs.
- The ability to read PSDs and update as the PSD updates. Same with other types of files from other applications.
- A decent de-interlace tool when working with other formats.
These are useful but not super-complicated things I bet would help a free NLE rise above, like, Windows Movie Maker or something.
Rick McCallum loves you!
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beafet
Title: Webmaster
Jacksonville, NC FanForce
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
7/8 12:33pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
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Yeah, this is meant more to compete with FCP or Avid than iMovie or WMM.
Kinda like how The Gimp is closer to Photoshop than MS Paint.
Appreciate the detailed feedback thus far, guys!
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AdamBertocci
Title: Manager: Fan Films
Registered:
Feb '02
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Date Posted:
7/8 12:40pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
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Ahh, like Gimp! Now I understand.
Hmm.
- Dealing with multiclips. FCP does this pretty well I'm told, never dealt with it in anything else.
- For any "out of the box" setting on a piece of media or a transition or filter or whatever, customizability. As in, when you put on a wipe, you should be able to control the angle and the speed and the blurriness; when you put in a video clip, you should be able to control its handles and its opacity and its playback speed just like on the big NLEs. No "it's the default or nothing, buddy".
Rick McCallum loves you!
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"Run Leia Run", "The Chopped-Off Hands of Star Wars", and "The Fan Film Menace" ... check 'em out. http://www.runleiarun.com MarriedVespin?!
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backdeskproductions
Registered:
Aug '07
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Date Posted:
7/8 3:38pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
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All I got to say is...
What? 
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bgii_2000
Registered:
Jan '05
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Date Posted:
7/8 3:44pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
- Date Edited:
7/8 3:45pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
bgii_2000
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Being able to preview the final frame size and letter-box at a glance before rendering would be nice. I can't count the number of times that I've had to re-render projects because I had the wrong pixel-ratio, or resolution specified. Being able to see it at a glance would prevent that. TMPEGEnc does this, and it's really handy.
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NickLong
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
7/8 3:44pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
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[stepon_soapbox]
With all due respect...what a load of male cow carp!
There's NO WAY that some of the things suggested by Mike or Spiff are "must have"
Some of the things Spiff mentioned are just ridiculous. Stating they are the "Most important thing in a NLE" is just silly.
[/stepon_soapbox]
OK, so IF you're doing that kind of work, yes, some of those things may be useful - more especially:
-Native 24p support
-Native image sequence support for the major formats
-Resolution independent timelines
-Support for FXplug or AE plugins
-Codec support
-Supports nested time lines
I'm pretty sure that FCP can do all these things, and I know AVID and Premiere can do some.
I'd suggest Beafet, that you check out AVID FREE DV - see what that has to offer. I've briefly glanced at it and it seems to be a cut down version of AVID's software (though you need some specific things hardware wise on a PC I think) that'll handle DV. I know for sure that iMovie can support some Higher Def formats (AVC, HDV etc).
From my point of view, these are some of the things I couldn't do without:
-Multi-layer timeline: A lot of people take it for granted these days and you could argue that it makes for a messy editor. However, I remember the days of Media 100 with must distaste.
-A decent UI: As popular as AVID is, I hate the UI. FCP and even Premiere have a much better UI.
-Codec support: not necessarily things like DivX or Sorenson 3, but for cross compatability, i.e. Cinewave codecs, Aja codec, blackmagic codecs etc.
-Resolution independent timelines: the amount of clients who come in with crap they've captured on their home PC, or an edit they did and only have in MPEG-1 and want to mix it with DVCPro or HDV. Seriously - i get this a lot!!
-Colour Correction tools: not necessarily grading tools, but something to easily increase contrast and get rid of some nasty white balancing (or correct that lovely green hue from the Viper Cam)
-Basic sound mixing: nothing too fancy - you've got protools or logic for that, but something that compares to what's out there at the moment is great.
-DEFINATELY PSD support: preferably layered. would be nice to have layered AE and Motion support, but if not, some sort of integration (i.e. open in editor)
-4:4:4 is pretty much a must these days, but not entirely necessary - it depends what you're working on. I know for sure that I get more 4:2:2 stuff.
-8-bit support: 10-bit also, but again, most broadcasters are happy with 8-bit. I believe Black Magic cards support 12-bit too, but 16-bit+ is somewhat overkill unless you're working on Ultra-Hi-Def or film stuff.
hmm, everything that Adam said too, that's all critical.
I can't think of anything else right now, except maybe EXPORTABILITY, Edit/Print to Tape, Capture/Transfer etc.
I'm a huge fan of settings being customisable, be it sequence settings, capture/output settings or just the prefs. for the NLE itself. Easy Setups are helpful too for quick jobs.
anyway,
Nick "Shorty" Long
P.S. If i think of anything else, I'll try and post them.
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TF.N Superheroes:http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=4509423 and: http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=6121841 Biggest Truth ever heard: "Premiere is a virus" - SovKnight "Boys have a penis, Girls have a vagina" Certified Color Trainer
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DorkmanScott
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
7/8 3:47pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
- Date Edited:
7/8 3:49pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
DorkmanScott
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NickLong posted:
With all due respect...what a load of male cow carp!
There's NO WAY that some of the things suggested by Mike or Spiff are "must have"
Some of the things Spiff mentioned are just ridiculous. Stating they are the "Most important thing in a NLE" is just silly.
As a "free NLE", maybe not. But as an NLE that wants to be competing with the likes of FCP, AVID, and Smoke, then you'd better do it as good or better than those existing NLEs do.
Maybe those aren't "must haves" in terms of getting the job done, but for my part they're "must have" before I'd even consider using that instead of FCP.
And at any rate, since they're still apparently at the "what do you want to see" stage, I don't see anything wrong with recommending they reach for the stars.
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Obama/Biden 2008 Let's bring back America. http://www.ryanvsdorkman.com Check out my blog: http://dorkmanscott.blogspot.com
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DarthKomar
Registered:
Nov '07
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Date Posted:
7/8 3:56pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
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I want a free video editor that will import videos from my camera, color correct them, cut them, adjust the volume, assemble and render them all automatically. And for the pro version, automatic lightsabre rotosoping and SFXing. Then I will worship you.
Well you asked.
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NickLong
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
7/8 4:05pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
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DorkmanScott posted:
NickLong posted:
With all due respect...what a load of male cow carp!
There's NO WAY that some of the things suggested by Mike or Spiff are "must have"
Some of the things Spiff mentioned are just ridiculous. Stating they are the "Most important thing in a NLE" is just silly.
As a "free NLE", maybe not. But as an NLE that wants to be competing with the likes of FCP, AVID, and Smoke, then you'd better do it as good or better than those existing NLEs do.
Maybe those aren't "must haves" in terms of getting the job done, but for my part they're "must have" before I'd even consider using that instead of FCP.
And at any rate, since they're still apparently at the "what do you want to see" stage, I don't see anything wrong with recommending they reach for the stars.
OK, fair points, but one has to ask, how many people are really gonna be using/able to afford to use a RED camera? for example.
I accept that it's your wish list, but as soon as a developer starts aiming towards a minority with something like a NLE, they may as well stop writing the code before they start.
I'm pretty sure it's mostly down to the camera developer to write the plug-ins anyway isn't it? Then when a format gets more popular, it may be included as standard or in an update (thinking of XD-CAM)
anyway,
Nick "Shorty" Long
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TF.N Superheroes:http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=4509423 and: http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=6121841 Biggest Truth ever heard: "Premiere is a virus" - SovKnight "Boys have a penis, Girls have a vagina" Certified Color Trainer
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-Spiff-
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
7/8 4:29pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
- Date Edited:
7/8 4:32pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
-Spiff-
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NickLong - my points about multiple frame rates and codecs, colour processing and the handling of interlace are all parts of the frameserver engine required for ANY NLE. Specifying the colour precision, colour spaces etc. are all important at the start in order to sort out memory and other allocations that get the engine that drives the NLE up to snuff.
NickLong posted:
OK, fair points, but one has to ask, how many people are really gonna be using/able to afford to use a RED camera? for example.
In 2009 a $3000 3K Scarlet is supposed to be released from Red Digital Cinema. I expect the RedCODE RAW format will become very popular at that point. Seeing as they're in the starting stage, they should definitely be considering resolution support at 4K, 3K and 2K. If not 5K for the RED EPIC.
-Spiff
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Eclipse SE now available: http://boards.theforce.net/fan_films/b10015/28647876/p1/?26 Spiff(x, |x-Phi|<small) = twitterpated FREE THE QUARKS!!!
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AdamBertocci
Title: Manager: Fan Films
Registered:
Feb '02
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Date Posted:
7/8 4:31pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
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OK, fair points, but one has to ask, how many people are really gonna be using/able to afford to use a RED camera?
Well, since they're saving so much money on their NLE... 
Rick McCallum loves you!
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"Run Leia Run", "The Chopped-Off Hands of Star Wars", and "The Fan Film Menace" ... check 'em out. http://www.runleiarun.com MarriedVespin?!
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NickLong
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
7/8 4:36pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
- Date Edited:
7/8 4:41pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
NickLong
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AdamBertocci posted:
OK, fair points, but one has to ask, how many people are really gonna be using/able to afford to use a RED camera?
Well, since they're saving so much money on their NLE...
Rick McCallum loves you!
shut it "mod"
<<In 2009 a $3000 3K Scarlet is supposed to be released from Red Digital Cinema>>
Do people even use 3K? 2K, yes, 4K, yes, but never seen anyone use 3K...
anyway,
Nick "Shorty" Long
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TF.N Superheroes:http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=4509423 and: http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=6121841 Biggest Truth ever heard: "Premiere is a virus" - SovKnight "Boys have a penis, Girls have a vagina" Certified Color Trainer
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Master_Comyn
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
7/8 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: Hey, all you editor-types...
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NickLong posted:
Do people even use 3K? 2K, yes, 4K, yes, but never seen anyone use 3K...
Not while the NAACP still lives and breathes.
[rimshot]
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