Author Topic: Practical vs Digital...
PadawanNick  3318 posts
Registered: Jun '01
6036_Pit Droid
Date Posted: 5/18 7:41pm Subject: Practical vs Digital...
elemental_fantasy posted:
"You know, I think someday your gonna probably be able to do everything you can do with models, your gonna be able to do in a computer, but were not there yet."

-Dennis Muren

That was back in 2002.
Are we there yet? It seems that CG models in films these days are often easier and actually less time consuming then practical models, with a much more broad range of control, especially with matching the plat elements. So why still build practical models for films? Miniatures is dying, but is it dead?

Basically, yes, we have reached the "someday" that Mr. Muren talked about, but the bottom line is that doesn't equate to miniatures being dead, or even dying. There use is much more limited and specialized, but they will be an active component of visual effects for movies for as long as there are artists that have the ingenuity, creativity and talent to deliver the astounding work we've all grown accustomed to.

The thing is that most of the "that was obviously CG" moments you see are crashed through production on very limited budgets and time lines. Most of the CG you see on television and movies goes by with you ever knowing it was CG. You're not talking about those shots here because, even as VFX enthusiasts, you didn't notice they happened.

Still, that doesn't equate to the death of miniatures. In fact ... it enhances miniature work.
One of my friends is a supervisor over at New Deal Studios.
Visit their website and browse through their behind the scenes segments to see just how much goes into their work.

Have fun.

 

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Darth_Abdax  517 posts
Registered: Jun '05
24124_Indiana Jones
Date Posted: 5/18 10:24pm Subject: Practical vs Digital...
PadawanNick posted:
One of my friends is a supervisor over at New Deal Studios.
Visit their website and browse through their behind the scenes segments to see just how much goes into their work.

Have fun.


God, I would love to even intern there shooting miniatures.

 

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NZPoe  1425 posts
Registered: Nov '01
13864_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 5/18 11:06pm Subject: Practical vs Digital...
PadawanNick posted:

The thing is that most of the "that was obviously CG" moments you see are crashed through production on very limited budgets and time lines.


Hence. Point. CGI is a tool.

A SOLUTION might have been a smarter approach to the effect, combining good shoot, good planning, good balance of CG and practical/in front of camera elements plus research plus a bit of creative ingenuity.

THAT could be a solution to "that was obviously CG".

 

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PadawanNick  3318 posts
Registered: Jun '01
6036_Pit Droid
Date Posted: 5/19 4:11am Subject: Practical vs Digital...
NZPoe posted:
PadawanNick posted:

The thing is that most of the "that was obviously CG" moments you see are crashed through production on very limited budgets and time lines.
A SOLUTION might have been a smarter approach to the effect, combining good shoot, good planning, good balance of CG and practical/in front of camera elements plus research plus a bit of creative ingenuity.

THAT could be a solution to "that was obviously CG".
Yes ... well .... these things are all generally the exact opposite of limited budget and/or limited timeline. tongue
Have fun. happy

 

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NZPoe  1425 posts
Registered: Nov '01
13864_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 5/19 5:22am Subject: Practical vs Digital...
PadawanNick posted:
Yes ... well .... these things are all generally the exact opposite of limited budget and/or limited timeline. tongue
Have fun. happy


tongue Make no mistake, this is - sadly - the VFX artists PROBLEM....but it is NOT their fault. And it is not in their position to remedy. It's only their position to pick up the pieces, along with the limited budget and time, and just to try to make it happen.

It's the producers and the directors and money-handlers of the world who CREATE the problems that lead to "that was so obviously CGI".

I've been there, I've seen it happen and there's little that CAN be done. Anyone at the top of the heap who has no mind for post or VFX will only continue to put VFX artists in those positions.

THAT...is what makes all of this so damn hard doh!

 

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Boter  1868 posts
Registered: Jul '02
44265_Chiss
Date Posted: 5/19 9:43am Subject: Practical vs Digital...
elemental_fantasy posted:
Boter posted:
elemental_fantasy posted:
At top class, a cgi starship beats any practical starship.

Wrong. There's something about the Return of the Jedi space battle that is utterly astounding, because they used actual live models. The battle at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, by counterpoint, does nothing for me.

Jedi's space battle was cool, but it really wasn't that great Boter. Not even close to astounding!

I disagree. I love it, and I don't think I've seen a large-scale space battle that's matched it. I know where the important ships are, I know what's going on, I know who's winning and who's backed up against the wall/Death Star shields.

RotS had a good small-scale space battle - for everything going on around them, the movie was focused on Anakin and Obi-Wan. (Failing of the PT, forgetting that people other than Jedi exist.). In that respect it was good - like Broken Allegiance, it follows people and what's directly impacting them. But I haven't seen something large-scale where we get a good sense of the expansive space battlefield. Heck, Mass Effect cutscenes towards the end give a decent sense of that, but for the most part I've seen better expansive space scenes in books (Halo, The Fall of Reach).

I suppose this isn't a practical/GC comparison, it's more of a focus of the movie. RotS could have been great if they focused on more people than the two Jedi, but as it was, though it was a nice story element, it wasn't a great space battle for me.

 

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NZPoe  1425 posts
Registered: Nov '01
13864_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 7/2 1:32am Subject: Practical vs Digital...
Not to dredge up old arguments again, but this article reminded - in a good-natured way - of this thread happy

http://denofgeek.com/movies/278064/has_cg_had_its_day.html

 

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Boter  1868 posts
Registered: Jul '02
44265_Chiss
Date Posted: 7/2 8:37am Subject: Practical vs Digital...
I disagree with the core fo his argument - that GC needs to have "wow factor". It doesn't - it's a tool, like depth of field or lighting. Every now and then, something is lit in a way that goes "wow", or a shot is set up in such a way to make you go "wow", or a CG effect makes you go "wow", but these are few and far between. In complaining about mere spectacle, the author of that article is looking for spectacle and won't take CG that's as commonplace as lighting a shot competently.

 

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NZPoe  1425 posts
Registered: Nov '01
13864_Boba Fett
Date Posted: 7/3 10:04pm Subject: Practical vs Digital...
I'm in two minds - while I agree that CG doesn't need to have wow factor, he does back up his core argument with the most obvious example: Transformers 2 - which is all about the wow factor. If the wow factor isn't there, then there's nothing really left to enjoy for some audience members given the fact that the script is awful and there's no genuine emotional content in the movie.

If you're paying your money to be wowed by knock-em/sock-em robots and it fails to deliver on that point alone - because CG's WOW factor maybe diminished in the current age - then there's no point to a film like Transformers 2. Transformers 2 isn't going to make you cry or make you duck under your seat or make you get up and yell "yeah, go gettim!" (because its not that kind of a film and certainly not written/directed/acted well enough to be one) then all there is left is dazzling CGI...and for this writer, he argues that its no longer enough.

Star Trek is another interesting variation on the same topic - there's more visual FX in the new Star Trek movie than in the first six films combined, all CG augmented, but how much spectacle can make up for good moviemaking? Star Trek: The Motion Picture was all spectacle and an epic budget, but Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan was made for a fraction of the first film's cost, took place in dimly lit sets and had amazing writing, acting and direction and is STILL thought to be the best Trek movie ever made by a considerable number of people.

I think the article suggests that "what GOOD is spectacle if it doesn't do its job anymore"? So many films try to dazzle with CGI than dazzle with great storytelling and acting.

I think he suggests that the powers that be for mainstream commercial filmmaking have not yet caught up with the fact that droves of audience members are no longer impressed with CGI, given how commonplace it has become in everyday society.

 

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Boter  1868 posts
Registered: Jul '02
44265_Chiss
Date Posted: 7/9 5:28pm Subject: Practical vs Digital...
He's suggesting that it's the CG itself that needs wow factor. We got wow factor CG in the first Transformers movie, now what we're getting with Transformers 2 is a good action movie that happens to use CG for its characters. I just saw Taken, and to use an older example, it uses color film - there is no "wow factor" to the colors. But it is still a very good action movie that uses its tools effectively.

 

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Mithrawnurodo  396 posts
Registered: Sep '05
8081_ILM
Date Posted: 7/10 9:04pm Subject: Practical vs Digital...
In the final analysis, as film makers, we are here to tell a story. There are many tools available to help us tell our story, but we are here to make the audience believe in and feel for our characters. Because that is what a movie is in the end, a story. A story that shocks us, amazes us, frightens us...challenges us.

To this end, any tool available and financially viable should be used. But if and only if it will help sell the illusion. Bad model work, just as bad CG work, hurts this illusion. But, if you make the audience believe in, and feel for your characters, they will overlook certain flaws. The human mind is a powerful thing, as I believe some poster said above, the most powerful tool at the film makers disposal is the human imagination.

Regarding the climatic battle in ROTJ, there are certainly some mistakes in it to our "modern, sophisticated", eye, but I don't see those when I watch it, I see a group of believable, likable, characters, with their backs against the wall, fighting for their survival against an overwhelmingly powerful enemy. As I watch it, I don't see the mistakes in the compositing(which, the compositing in ROTJ is an amazing achievement for the time, I believe I heard somewhere that there are over a hundred layers, all optically composited together in parts of that space battle), I see characters that I care about.

It is a saying that has been repeated here many times, and it is still as true as ever, "effects must never replace story".

Lets go back a few years, 80 to be exact, Technicolor has just perfected their first camera capable of shooting proper color feasibly, it took almost fifteen years for Hollywood to figure out how to make films properly with the new medium. Because everything is different in color then black and white, lighting is different, makeup is different, their are limitations with the new camera, which is very bulky and difficult to move around like their older cameras. The early color films were a disaster, either they sacrificed story and counted on color to carry the film(sound familiar?) or they mishandled their medium in a variety of other ways.

But they figured it out finally, and films like "Robin Hood", "Dodge City", "Wizard of Oz", "Gone With The Wind", etc are made. Classics that endure to thrill us today. Because the film makers back then learned the lesson about color that todays film makers need to learn about effects, story must come first, and the techniques you are using must complement it.

Just my 0.02 cents happy

 

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Boter  1868 posts
Registered: Jul '02
44265_Chiss
Date Posted: 7/10 10:25pm Subject: Practical vs Digital...
Hear, hear! Completely agreed.

 

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