Jedi Council Forums - The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read

[TheForce.Net] Jedi Council Forums » Inactive Forums: Jedi Council » Focus Group: Bashers, bashing and the Jedi Council » The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read

Locked Topic | Read Only Topic | Previous Active Topic | ~~Next Active Topic~~

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 - Previous | Next | Reload

Author	Topic: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/3/06 9:00am Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	Darth-Stryphe posted: It has been stated and asked why the sanctuary was created in the first place. Good question. We have the sanctuary creator, Binary, here with us. Binary, why did you create the sanctuary. What was its exact purpose? I joined the boards in Oct. 2000, and it didn't take me long at all to recognize a recurrent problem: A basher would start a thread on a given TPM topic, and the thread topic would take as a given that one or more things were wrong with TPM. The thread would then almost instantly get de-railed by one or more gushers who attacked the very premise of the thread. Thread after thread ended up turning into the same old thread, with the bashers giving wordy explanations as to why they didn't like Jar Jar, midichlorians, and Anakin's virginal conception (amongst other things), while the gushers gave wordy explanations as to why they did like said things. This got tiresome very quickly. To facilitate conversation, I started the Bashers' Sanctuary in November (the 15th, I think) 2000. It provided a thread in which it was taken as a premise of the conversation that Jar Jar, midichlorians, virginal conception, and other widely-disliked (by bashers) elements of TPM were unfortunate. That way we could converse without having to explain for the umpteenth-time why we didn't like Jar Jar (or whatever). Explaining the same thing over and over is certainly no fun, and having fun is the point of SW fandom. The only alternative to the Sanctuary would have been to have a Word document with long paragraphs explaining the problems with unfortunate elements of TPM, and then copy-and-pasting them over and over. Again, not fun. Sometimes SW just want to kick-back and talk SW without having to debate. Debating is fine, but who wants to spend all their time debating? The Sanctuary was for relaxed SW discussion. There were and are 100s of threads for when you want to debate. Over the years, the Sanctuary partly evolved (IMO) into a courtesy to the gushers. I felt we were being courteous to fans of the PT by confining the lion's share of our bashing to the Sanctuary. Ultimately, though, the Sanctuary was about having fun with fellow SW fans. Those participating in the thread simply had fun with like-minded SW fans. I'm almost 36 years old, and I'm a hard-core fan of the 1977 SW film. I have very little in common with a 14-year-old fan of the prequels and the Dark Horse comic books but who doesn't like the OT. Good luck to him, but the two of us have very little to say to one another. That doesn't mean that I'm bad, or that he's bad. It just means we're different. It also doesn't mean that he or I should be pressured into conversing together. If we want to talk, we'll talk. And if we don't want to talk, there's not a problem with that, either.
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
gezvader28 Registered: Mar '03	Date Posted: 6/3/06 9:12am Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	Not to get nitpicky, but I think this analogy is somewhat flawed. This situation is more like a particular gay club (to keep with the same analogy) in an all gay town, one that caters to a very specific group of people, and what's being attempted by the powers that be is the melding of the entire gay community And closing down their club is going to help is it? I don't think so. If this particular club has certain tastes - let's say they prefer Judy Garland songs why should they have to give that up just cos the others don't like it ? The analogy works the same - there would be an almighty stink if this happened, and the gay people discriminated against would point out that the Gays with power were now doing what the larger society used to do to gays in general . and besides - most sanct regulars do go out to the other threads, a few don't and they have their reasons which is mostly about meeting insults and 'you're not welcome' signs . instead of having little offshoot groups that have a tendancy to fight with each other, sometimes violently What? you're saying that we fought violently? The fight violently was just an analogy, we don't usually get violent here, heated arguments and bickering perhaps. and what's wrong with heated arguments, they happen in all threads . but there's no way to promote tolerance of each other if each group remains segregated Where's the tolerance in the closing down of an enormously popular thread?? -------- It had nothing to do with gushers, I was drawing an analogy to how the sanct could define culture by how it already defines culture I have read that explanation several times and ... I just don't understand it . As to the sanctuary itself, this FG is not a discussion on why the sanctuary was closed. Reasons were given in Comms, but if they were not satisfactory I'd be glad to discuss it more in PMs Well I'd be happy to read any PMs. but - I thought we were supposed to be getting it all out in the open , and already I'm hearing a lot of "Let's not mention the sanctuary" Maybe I'm being dense and not understanding something that everyone else already understands so can I ask the bashers here a question - do you understand why stryphe locked the sanct ? This FG is, however, for tackling the bigger issues of bashers and bashing (past, present, future) and then look at solutions for this conflict we find ourselves in, and look at how we can make the JC better as a result of it okay, but if we don't even understand why you and strilo wanted the sanct locked how are we gonna get to any understanding or move on etc. ? again, my apologies if I'm being the dense one who's not getting it. and I'm sorry if it seems like I'm badgering you, but - I care about the sanct, it was a fine place . All of this I have other threads to discuss already. You can see the list here. Feel free to creat additional topics I can create topic here? this is like a whole board itself? couldn't we keep it all in one ? Why was the Comms thread locked, that doesn't look good. There seems to be this thought that a bunch of mods were clamoring for the locking of the BS, but that isn't true at all Well stryphe said in the sanct that there wasn't a mod who didn't want to see it locked apart from himself and Dorkmanscott. (he has further explained what was going on to me in the Comms thread . ) but I mention it 'cos ... well it relates to what you say. No the stereotypes won't go away with the locking of a thread, but it could help in the long term to break them down. and of course we've seen a lot of stereotypical views being used to describe the sanct in the last week : full of hate, negative, fighting violently, etc. so can I ask that the mods who see us like this read the thread and see what it's like. g edit - Stryphe rulez!!1! happy now ? -----signature----- ROTJ 2007 edition : "Leia ... do you remember your mother? Your real mother? " "No."
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
ShaakRider Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/3/06 9:35am Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	RebelScum77 posted: I'm not sure where it's ever been said that some of us are "irritated that these people exist", it's this sort of assumption which is making communication difficult. No one thinks that. The only irritating thing to me is extremism (on either side) which does not allow for good debate and discussion. Well, noone actually said so, I grant you that. However, we were given plenty of reasons to feel that bashers are not welcome here, so, at least to me, it won't be easy to get rid of this assumption. RebelScum77 posted: Remember that it was entirely Strilo and Stryphe's own decision to lock the BS. They came in and told the MS their plans. We then all agreed that the Golden Age thread sounded like a really good idea. There seems to be this thought that a bunch of mods were clamoring for the locking of the BS, but that isn't true at all. In the thread we all agreed that this new plan sounded like a much better idea and a community builder, which is what we're really trying to accomplish post films (it is even a major concern of Sape's)- building a strong community that will last much longer than the films themselves. Well, both Stryphe and Strilo stated not once, that they're the only reason the Sanctuary could exist as long as it did. This pretty much implies that, even if you weren't outright clamouring for a lock, there was some kind of anti-BS sentimet among the mods. So I really don't know, what to think. Stryphe stated his personal reasons for the lock back in the BS, and while I heavily disagree with his decision (or rather, the way it happened), they are at least acceptable, and make sense. But in terms of building a community, I still don't understand, what did you hope to achieve with this move. Offending and driving away a part of the community doesn't seem like step towards "better integrating" them. In general, I don't think it's a good idea trying to build communities "by force", as they have a great self-regulating potential anyway. Yep, this new thread is a great idea, or would be, if it weren't presented as a replacement for the BS. Quite possibly many BS regulars would have moved there anyway. Anyhow, what bothers me the most: why didn't anyone care to consult the ones this change affects prior to making it?
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/3/06 10:35am Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	G-Fett and if they can say how they feel about the main movie forums? What do you guys think are the main problems with the movie forums? Maybe these patented responses: "But that happened in the OT too" "Anyone with a brain could see that..." "It's so simple" and, of course, whatever crap Lucas says. But then of course, when he says something different the next week, totally contradictory, those same people ditch what he said before. It gets old. Personally, I find some of those people who would just repeat whatever Lucas says about the films is fine because it's "his vision", a waste of time and full of crap. Don't tell me what Lucas' vision is. It changes every other week anyway. If someone were to make a book called "George Lucas says...", they'd have to revise the thing every other week to keep up with his "vision". I don't come here to read fans opinions that read like a Lucasfilm press release. I come here to read what fans think about it. And no, I don't mean if you like it you're a mouthpiece or a Lucas tool. There are plenty of folks who love the prequels who always make good points, their points about why it's good or works. I just don't want to hear that corporate crap. That's why, if this site is for the fans and about the fans, then we have some issues to talk about: Alot of folks are very, very unhappy with Lucasfilm's recent O-OT DVD release. IMHO, it's a 180 on Lucas' part and bodes well for the future of the OOT in coming media. He's acknowledging it at long last. That's a big difference. However, I'm not going to kid myself and say it's going over well with everybody else. It's not. I think some fans have just had it. This is the last straw for them. They're no longer going to just happily accept whatever goes down. And look, the PT fans, the newer fans, some of them think the O-OT fans are crazy. They don't see what the big deal is. When the O-OT's coming on DVD were announced they said: "Okay, you got what you want, now will you shut up?" I've seen those comments. There's resentment and attitudes across the board. I think it speaks to a larger frustration and realization in fandom: The Originals and Prequels are two different sets of films that go together like oil and water. The 6-film Star Wars saga sucks. It's ridiculous if you watch them as one long 14 hour movie. There are gaps,plotholes, illogical behaviour,amazingly disparate visualizations and technical changes,different characterizations of the same characters from one set to the other, etc. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
That_Wascally_Droid Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 6/3/06 11:14am Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	There are plenty of folks who love the prequels who always make good points You know, I have to say, coming in here that was just about the only thing I actually hoped to see and I'll tell you why. It speaks volumes that this isn't going to be another dual defensive maneuver. Otherwise, there's nothing to discuss (not that there may be anyway, but we'll see). This shows, I think, that at least some on each side are willing to give a little ground here and there. Not everyone on both sides I'm sure, but at least a few. I think each side (yes, I know, again with the labels) get so wrapped up in defending their side that they ignore any points the other side makes. It becomes a contest of no, you're wrong, I'm right and here's why (sometimes without the why). I can't speak for everybody (seeing as I'm not everybody) but it's a situation I've noticed. I've been guilty of it often enough that I've had to step back and go 'hold on, wait a minute, why am I doing this?' It's not a basher/gusher thing, it's a human thing really. You see it everywhere. Politics, religion, school, sports, etc etc. Anytime where two 'teams' are present. If anything is going to come from this (what possibly could, I have no idea but we'll see) it's only going to come by acknowledging old habits and making an effort to combat them. afterall, you can't fix what you can't acknowlege is there. -----signature----- As has been said: Don't **** with Kenobi
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Vortigern99 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 6/3/06 11:37am Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read -
	Darth-Stryphe posted: It had nothing to do with gushers, I was drawing an analogy to how the sanct could define culture by how it already defines culture. I really don't know how else to make my points, so I'll just add that it wasn't "the" reason I closed the sanctuary, it was just something about it that bothered me. To my mind that is an utterly indefensible reason for closing a thread that was important to many minds and close to many hearts: that "something about it bothered you." It didn't violate the TOS in any way, but it bothered you personally, so you locked it? That is an unreasoning, unjust and spiteful act. It distresses me that a mod, whom many have praised for helping the Basher cause over the years, would make this kind of decision and then refuse to give clear answers for it in the thread he created in order to talk about the problem. "Defining culture?" As a man who studied anthropology and human culture in college, I ask you: WT* are you talking about?? Darth-Stryphe posted: As to the sanctuary itself, this FG is not a discussion on why the sanctuary was closed. Reasons were given in Comms, but if they were not satisfactory I'd be glad to discuss it more in PMs. This FG is, however, for tackling the bigger issues of bashers and bashing (past, present, future) and then look at solutions for this conflict we find ourselves in, and look at how we can make the JC better as a result of it. I'm not here to point a finger at any one group for this currently state of unrest. It simply is, has been building for a long time, and should be talked about and worked on. The closing of the Sanctuary is the issue, is germaine to this discussion, and is the source of the present unrest. How can you not see that? You don't want to "point fingers" because the finger points at you, who locked the thread that gave the Bashers a voice. I don't know where this "Comms" thread is, nor has any mod who locked a "Sanctuary-discussion" thread provided a link to Comms, so frankly I have no clue what the reasons for the lock were. It seems that the current thread would be a good place to discuss it in detail, but I suppose that's up to the people in charge. gezvader28 posted: Well I'd be happy to read any PMs. but - I thought we were supposed to be getting it all out in the open , and already I'm hearing a lot of "Let's not mention the sanctuary." Maybe I'm being dense and not understanding something that everyone else already understands so can I ask the bashers here a question - do you understand why stryphe locked the sanct? I surely do not. gezvader28 posted: There seems to be this thought that a bunch of mods were clamoring for the locking of the BS, but that isn't true at all Well stryphe said in the sanct that there wasn't a mod who didn't want to see it locked apart from himself and Dorkmanscott. Exactly! First Stryphe implies that the other mods are practically chomping at the bit to close the Sanctuary, then he disavows any such sentiment. Again, I ask: WT?? gezvader28* posted: ... and of course we've seen a lot of stereotypical views being used to describe the sanct in the last week : full of hate, negative, fighting violently, etc. so can I ask that the mods who see us like this read the thread and see what it's like. Again: exactly. The Sanctuary was a fun and funny place. Negative comments were almost always couched in the language of humor and satire. To my way of thinking, anyone offended by the thoughts and feelings expressed therein might simply have clicked on the Back button and got the hell out of Dodge. God knows I've done that myself on numerous occasions. Edit: Took out the "F" -----signature----- "I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale."--George Lucas My "Vader's Origins" thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
That_Wascally_Droid Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 6/3/06 12:21pm Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	We can do that? -----signature----- As has been said: Don't **** with Kenobi
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
ShaakRider Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/3/06 1:19pm Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	from the BS Stryphe posted: be thankful the thread got 4 more years than the administration would have allowed, because of Quix, Stryphe and myself. Very true. Regarding statements already made by Strilo about this transition to a new thread: What he says is true. For a time there, Strilo and I thought this place would last forever, but over time, things changed. For the record, coming to the decision to close the Sanctuary was very hard for Strilo. He was really torn. But for the sake of full discloser, even though Strilo and I agree on the direction of the Sanctuary and on this the new thread, I have to clarify that my reasons for coming to this decision were somewhat different. I would have been OK keeping the sanctuary open and not making this transition, but for two reasons: 1) Someday the SWC administration will change. Don't know when, but some day it will. Just the nature of life. Now, let's be realistic, when this SWC administration is gone, so is the sanctuary and its legacy. There will be no more mods to support it, definitely not like Strilo and I have. I'm tired of us being the only reason this place is open. I want a thread that all the mods and admins could be happy with and at the same time give you guys a fun place to play. With such a thread I can stop worrying about you guys having a lasting legacy. You guys are SW fans, and you deserve a place you can be fans. This new thread will do just that, if you should choose to take advantage of it. All the other mods think it is a great idea, and that is huge for you guys. I don't know if you realize just how huge. Especially with Sapient saying he thinks the new thread sounds great. 2) On a selfish note, I'm bored with PT talk. Aren't you guys? How many times can we say JJB sucks. That's old news. Protesting the SE has given us OEs, but GL ain't making new PT, I don't care what you said. Now, I'm perfectly fine if you guys want to keep bashing. I do a little of it still in Saga where I mod now (I moved out of PT, if you guys didn't notice). However, the bashing here these days is only fun when you guys are making great jokes. With two days left to go, your next clue about the new thread is it has nothing to do with the PT and I think for many of us, this will be very refreshing. Read the opening post before judging, but I think you'll find the new place taylor-made for most people here. I admit this reason #2 is selfish, but to my credit I wouldn't have locked the sanct on this reason alone. After weighing all the pros and cons with Strilo, in the end, this one tipped the scales for me. That and (to be even more bluntly honest) the fact I was getting crap from a few of the sanctuary folks on a fairly regular basis. I warned you guys if you pushed me too far even I wouldn't be here to stand-up for this place. It finally came to that. At the same time, I'm not leaving you guys out to dry, either. Good things will come, if you will make them good. So I think that's why he closed the Sanctuary. Now, why should we discuss this stuff in PM's, when it's the most poignant symptom of this basher/gusher thing, and lead to the creation of this FG in the first place, that's indeed a good question
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Vortigern99 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 6/3/06 2:35pm Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	Shaak-Rider, thanks for posting that^. Since Stryphe first posted it in the Sanctuary, I've read it several times. Unfortunately, I must be as dense as gezvader, because even a close examination of it gets me no closer to understanding the reasons for locking the Sanc. Let me try to dissect why that is. Darth-Stryphe posted: be thankful the thread got 4 more years than the administration would have allowed, because of Quix, Stryphe and myself. Very true. Thanking Stryphe and Strilo for keeping the Sanctuary open seems to me like thanking Congress for making laws, or the police for enforcing them, or the justice department for interpreting them. Yeah, okay: Stryphe and Strilo, thanks for doing the fair, reasonable and expected thing according to the rules established by the administration... that is, until you reversed your position and instead did the unfair, unreasonable and surprising thing by closing the Sanc! If you could provide me with a single logical reason, based on the TOS or any other criteria you choose, why the Sanctuary should not remain open, I wish you would. Darth-Stryphe posted: I would have been OK keeping the sanctuary open and not making this transition, but for two reasons: 1) Someday the SWC administration will change. Don't know when, but some day it will. Just the nature of life. Now, let's be realistic, when this SWC administration is gone, so is the sanctuary and its legacy. There will be no more mods to support it, definitely not like Strilo and I have. [Walter from Lebowski]I believe prior restraint has been roundly rejected by the Supreme Court! [/Walter from Lebowski] Stryphe, how can you say with absolute assurance that "when this SWC administration is gone, so is the sanctuary and its legacy"? That is prognosting a future that may or may not come to pass. As change is indeed the nature of life, the events and experiences you've had which impel you to the above conclusion may alter, leading the SWC administration to, say, assume an attitude of neutrality toward the Sanctuary. There may even come a time when they are sympathetic toward it! It may seem a foolish notion based on current opinions, but again: how can you possibly know what will or will nto come to pass? Why not make the decision to close the Sanc when and if such a regime change occurs? Or, better yet, simply allow those future-world, putatively anti-Basher mods to do the deed themselves? Darth-Stryphe posted: I'm tired of us being the only reason this place is open. I want a thread that all the mods and admins could be happy with and at the same time give you guys a fun place to play. With such a thread I can stop worrying about you guys having a lasting legacy. You guys are SW fans, and you deserve a place you can be fans. This new thread will do just that, if you should choose to take advantage of it. All the other mods think it is a great idea, and that is huge for you guys. I don't know if you realize just how huge. Especially with Sapient saying he thinks the new thread sounds great. Yes, the Golden Age Society is pretty cool. I have to hand it to you there. The only problem with it is that bashing is off-topic! Darth-Stryphe posted: 2) On a selfish note, I'm bored with PT talk. Aren't you guys? How many times can we say JJB sucks. That's old news. Protesting the SE has given us OEs, but GL ain't making new PT, I don't care what you said. Now, I'm perfectly fine if you guys want to keep bashing. I do a little of it still in Saga where I mod now (I moved out of PT, if you guys didn't notice). However, the bashing here these days is only fun when you guys are making great jokes. Okay, so PT bashing gets old. But so what? Since when do the personal feelings of a mod dictate what threads get to stay open? Since when, and according to what rule or regulation, is it up to the admins to decide what topics of interest to STAR WARS fandom can and cannot be discussed (aside from the obvious such as obscenity and other no-no's as listed in the TOS)? Again: what is the exact violation that has engendered the closing of the Sanc?? Darth-Stryphe posted: After weighing all the pros and cons with Strilo, in the end, this one tipped the scales for me. That and (to be even more bluntly honest) the fact I was getting crap from a few of the sanctuary folks on a fairly regular basis. I warned you guys if you pushed me too far even I wouldn't be here to stand-up for this place. It finally came to that. At the same time, I'm not leaving you guys out to dry, either. Good things will come, if you will make them good. I wish I knew what this meant, exactly. In the last few days of the Sanc, I recall a poster challenging Strilo's admonition for us all to "calm down" in the wake of O-OTgate. We all went back and forth for a few pages, with Strilo ultimately insisting that he could "shut this thread down" or ban users for arguing with him. I felt then and I feel now that Strilo was way off-base. It continues to strike me as perplexing and unjust to close the Sanctuary. -----signature----- "I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale."--George Lucas My "Vader's Origins" thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/3/06 2:59pm Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	The thread in Comms was locked because our arguments were getting circular and there were some in the thread that were using it as a means to point fingers at the mod(s) of their choice, and we knew this FG would be open for us to discuss all this rationally with those were weren't using the thread as a place to pile on any individual mod, or being a tad too over-dramatic. As far as closing the Sanctuary goes, I'll repeat what I said in Comms: We knew of Stryphe and Strilo's decision to close the Sanc approximately 4 days before it was done, but the decision had been made between the two of them. SWC is their forum and they have a right to run it as they see fit. Now, I certainly supported them in the decision to create the Golden Era thread as it is a place to celebrate something you love in a positive way. Kind of like the Anakin/Padme Defenders. Many liken the A/P thread to a "Sanctuary", which it could be seen as, but actually it's more like the Golden Era thread, a place to celebrate that aspect of the story together with like minds. -----signature----- DT421
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Patrick Russell Registered: Jul '98	Date Posted: 6/3/06 6:19pm Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	With all due respect, I'm not sure why people continue to maintain this fiction that the Golden Age thread relates in any way, shape, or form to the Sanctuary. Yes, it's a new discussion thread. There are new discussion threads all the time. Probably always will be. But it has absolutely nothing to do with, nor is it anything resembling a replacement for or a progression from the Sanctuary. Don't yank an apple out of my hand, give me an orange, and then imply that it's just a new, improved kind of apple. I don't think any of us here just fell off the turnip truck, y'know? And Stryphe, I have to agree with the others who have pointed out that the closing of the Sanctuary is very much at the heart of the matter here, and to try and remove that from the discussion is basically to avoid talking about what we're here to talk about in the first place. -----signature----- "Eat one lousy foot, and they call you a cannibal!" "Why does the porridge bird lay its egg in the air? "It's not my fault!"
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Darth-Stryphe Title: In time you will call me Saga Manager! Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 6/3/06 10:31pm Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	I'll go over my reasons for the sanctuary closer again, but let me give you a little history, first. Go get something to eat and drink, this will be a long read. I think it was in 2003, yes, I remember now, in Spring, March, to be precise, the JC had these things called Advisor Councils. Any of the non-mods here remember those? What they were was a cross between a focus group (in fact FG's evolved from the AC) and a mini-mod squad. A small number of regular users were hand-picked (I forget by who) to join a three month long advisor council that would meet in private with the mods and discuss matters of forum policy and the like. Someone had dropped out and they needed to fill there spot. I was drafted as a replacement. I have no idea who offered up my name, probably Quix. So, I'm in this AC for about six week. During this time, I noticed a couple of mods actively lobby for the sanctuary's closer. It was obvious to me that they weren't even going to stop there, they would, if they could, start a real basher purge. It was every basher's worst nightmare. Fortunately, it was just two mods behind this. What unsettled me was that even though the other mods didn't see eye-to-eye with these two mods, some of the arguments for closing the sanctuary had a lot of support. As my term ended, I think Strilo came in to serve in the next AC term. He and Quix were able to successfully counter these two mods. Some of this drama spilled over into Comms. Over the period of time from 2002 to my early modship in 2004 every few months someone would start a thread in Comms about locking the sanctuary. Each time it happened, the TPM forum mods would stand up for it, but I was always a little unsettled at the number of other mods who came in agreed that it should be locked. There were always more of them than mods who supported the sanctuary. Usually the later was a very small list, in fact. The good thing was, though, that the right mods were the one's who supported it, and the head admin always supported the TPM mods position, even if he disagreed with it. When I became a mod, there was a bit of drama early on about locking the sanctuary. Strilo and I stood our grounds and kept it open. I can't remember the specifics about this bit of a drama, all I remember is it didn't last long. Throughout my time as a mod, I was never asked or pressured by the MS to close it. The two mods I mentioned who felt passionate about closing the sanctuary either left before I got promoted or soon after. However, throughout my time as a mod there were whispers here and there about other mods being dissatisifed with the sanctuary's existance. I even had some private conversation about it with a few, even one admin (said admin has since retired). One of these persons was cbjedi, who had been a TPM mod and a supporter of the sanctuary. He came out and said his biggest mistake as a movie forum mod was deciding not to lock the sanctuary (he was a JCC mod at the time he said this). Now, all of what I have said here thus far took place in or prior to 2004. Let's flash forward to 2005. As I said, since early 2004 there had been no pressure from members of the MS to close the sanctuary. I really felt that we had reached a place where the sanctuary would remain working and viable for as long as the JC was open. We'd already moved it out of the PT forum, thus preventing it from getting lost in the TPM and AOTC forum's closer and also putting it in a place where "on-topic" wouldn't be much of an issue (to a reasonable degree). Early 2005 to mid 2005 were golden ages for the sanctuary, IMO. However, there was one thing that continued to concern me. Our head admin, Darth Sapient, was strongly opposed to the sanctuary. He felt it and all Defense Forces, polarized the boards. However, he has a policy of deferring to the forum mods in such matters. Even though he disagreed with it, he left the decision to Strilo and myself. I feel its important to clarify that Sapient retained that stance to this day. He never asked us to close the sanctuary. But even as recent as two weeks before making the announcement about locking it, he would talk openly about how he felt it was a negative influence on the boards. Now, you may ask, if he wasn't going to ask us to close the sanctuary, why does this figure in the story? For this reason: When I came to the MS, Sap was the head admin. Sap is a nice guy, and back then he was such a nice guy I really didn't think he made a good head admin. Head admins can't always be nice guys. But (aside from a cuple of months of downtime) he has been the head admin for the 2-1/2 years I have been on the MS and over time he has really warmed up to the role of leader. Now he is bold and commanding, willing to do what's best for the forums even if it involves making hard decisions. He also turned his focus away from just maintaining the boards to also shaping the boards and building a future for the JC. Now, if he feels the Sanctuary is a damper on the JC and that future, I began to wonder, how long will he maintain his position of deference? I began to worry one day he would step up and say the time has come to close it. Ok, but getting back to the timeline, its now summer of 2005. I become aware of a problem. Many people expected ROTS to end the basher/gusher war. There are several ways that fans thought this would happen, but one that many held was that the bashers who hated everything since ROTJ-OE or (in many cases) ESB-OE would finally realize SW had nothing left for them, that is was over, and they would either leave or start focusing once again on what they liked about SW, the O-OT. But this didn't happen. It was over, and bashers carried on much as before. These fans really started to loose their patience, and the calm (or as much calm as has ever been) between bashers and gushers started to disappear and the rivalry once again started to pick up momentium. Strilo first approached me late in 2005 (I think it was) and expressed concern. The basher/gusher war was raging on, and he wanted to heal the fanbase. He saw the TPM/AOTC Defensive Forces and the Sanctuaries as roadblocks to this. Why? Because they were created out of the wars of old, and people saw them as icons to the conflict. I, too, wanted to find some resolution to the endless fighting and help heal the fanbase, but I did not think locking the Sanctuary would do it. In fact, I thought it would make things worse. I also was uncomfortable with creating rules and policies that would "encourage" people to post in a manner beyond what the TOS demanded. Why? Because I feared these policies would be abused by future generations of mods and be used for "thought policing". I trusted the current MS, but the MS of tomorrow is unknown to me, so I am not going to pretend I think they will inhertiantly do the right thing if we lay down dangerous precidence. I explained all this to Strilo and he agreed with my reasoning. So we left things as they were. He went ahead and locked the TPM/AOTC DFs, but they had died on their own, anyway, so it was no big deal. Time passed. We're now into 2006. I hear some bashers speak openly in the sanctuary about how they would like to go into CT and just chat about the good old movies, but can't. This angers them. What's the problem? Well, according to them, it is the SE Forum. Even the banners (all of them) were designed to celebrate the SE (side note: Everytime I went into CT, this was true about the banners). I think to myself "Hmmm, maybe the bashers really are ready to move on to just talking about the O-OT. That change might be nice." I say this because these complaints were brought to my attention by bashers. Had they not mentioned it to me or around me, I would never have made these obversations. Also, in 2006 the ROTS forum goes away and now we have just a PT forum. All PT mods who wanted a spot in this new forum got one. Three ROTS forum mods stayed, plus Strilo and myself. This transition goes well, IMO. But since I am now working closer with more of the movie forum mods, I began to realize that there is a sort of split on basher/gusher issue. I can't disclose our private conversations, but some of them reminded me of the old days. The Sanctuary never came up in any of these talks, but they got me to thinking back to the days of 2002 and 2004 when mods would look unfavorably on the sanct, and I realize those types of views still exist amongst mods, even if they were unspoken. Now, let me side track for a moment and make some comments on a personal front. May 2005 to May 2006 was a life changing year for me. It had little to do with SW or this place, althought it is funny to see how SW manages to work its way in there. If you want to know one of the more defining moments of this, click the bottom link in my sig and have a read. I'll just say this much, the Darth-Stryphe you all knew left Houston in September 22 of last year and never came back. I like to think, in light of everything, the Darth-Stryphe of now is a better person, but only God knows. How does that effect this story? Well, during this time, I lost interest in bashing. In part, the end of the Saga had the effect the some PT fans wanted on me, I was done on the issue. Also after what I have seen and been a part of this last year, I have lost an interest in bashing. I enjoy the social aspect of the sanct and enjoy the good humor that comes with some bashing nods to LSHB but I don't relate to this need to bash anymore. I still do some, but more for the fun of debating and not as passionately as others in the sanct. That being said, I maintained the view that you guys should have a fair say on the boards, even if the opinion is unpoular. So, I continued to support the sanctuary. Then we hit April of 2006. Strilo PMs me again. He is still worried that the sanctuary is keeping the perception of basher/gusher warfare going and that the only way to heal the boards is to once and for all rid it of the old threads -- the Sanctuary being the last of them that was still open. I still worried that locking the sanctuary would be a bad move and gave the same reasons again (not to mention I enjoyed the sanct still). Strilo understood and shared the concerns, but after having thought about it a long time he felt it was the right thing and worth the risk. He'd consulted many mods on the issue, even an admin. They agreed that Strilo had the right idea for the right reasons (more or less). We discussed it further. I said "Well, if we can offer them a place, a thread, there they can get together and talk about something they share in common, they might be satisfied with the transition, and if it can't be bashing, how about something they all enjoy?" Then I remembered all the complaints about people who wanted to chat about the O-OT in CT but said they couldn't and came up with the idea of the Golden Age thread. It was my hope most of the bashers really would enjoy it more, although I doubted it. So why did I agree to lock it, and what is this business of the 1/3rd and everything I mentioned before? When conversing with Strilo on the lock, I thought of all the mods over the years who argued it would be best to close it, I thought of the mods Strilo consulted with prior to contacting me, and I thought of Sapient. I thought to myself two things (a) If drama occurs again, and somebody runs to Comms like they used to in the good old days and demands the sanctuary be locked, who will defend it? (b) If I leave the MS, in light of all this history, what chance does the sanctuary have of remaining open? I considered other things. Was it worth the drama anymore? I take a lot of crap from forum regulars accusing me of being a bias mod. Becuase I had taken a strong stand about ROTS being kind of good, I even started getting flack from certain bashers who accused me of being bias against bashers. Huh!?! Yeah, that happened several times. I thought about the people who, for SW, it had become some "great evil" (these are people who have no desire to talk about anything but what they hate about SW and are very anger about it all the time). I thought about all this and it sort of took the fight out of me. I don't think the sanctuary should be locked for any of these reasons, and I didn't lock it for any of these reasons. These things, along with what I mentioned about having changed such that I no longer felt the interest in bashing any longer, took the fight out of me. I also was hoping that Strilo and the other mods were right about it, that moving things to the Golden Age thread would help heal the fanbase. I had serious doubts, but Strilo's a good mod, so I was offering him a benefit of the doubt that he might have the right idea. The kicker for me was that I was convinced that the sanctuary would no longer survive long term. I might could keep it open as long as I was a mod, but if I left, I was convinced it would go away with me. I felt that if it was locked while no long standing basher, like myself, was in the movie forum administration the resulting fallout would do irrevrsable damage to the basher community, and maybe to the movie forums as a whole. If it was locked during my watch I could help manage the situation and build something better out of the transition, for both bashers and non-bashers alike. That was the kicker for me. If this was inevidable, I wanted to be a part of it. I wanted say on how it would go down, and I wanted to work with the bashers to insure they have a place on the JC even still. I never told Strilo that until after the lock, because that was a personal decision on my part. No offense to our current administration, but I didn't think you guys could handle this without me, or rather, couldn't handle it was well. Now, let me, once again, address the issue of "mod conspiracy" and mod perception. No mods were involved in this decision to close the sanctuary. Strilo consulted several, but in the end, it was his and mine decision. In fact, we told no one. What the other mods are saying about not knowing is true. I told NO one what was going on, not even my RL friends. I didn't want it to leak, so I kept it even from the mods. Why didn't I want it to leak? I wanted to be the one to make the announcement, and not for someone to leak it out into the community. If no one knows, no one talks. As to mod pressure, well, that's explained in the story here. No one approached us, its all in the history and culture. I gave you the history so that you might see it through my eyes and see why I always felt uneasy with the Sanctuary's longativity. The fact is, most current mods don't care. If we say it needs to be closed, they say "great". If we say "we're keeping it open" they say "OK". Some mods do feel it is the right decision to close it and have felt this way for a long time. Mods who would like to see it remain open, aside from myself? Maybe Dorkmanscott, but he has stopped weighing in on the matter long ago, and then there is imperial_dork, who hasn't been very active in the movie forums recently. There are no others. Now that it is said and done, I think it has gone down disasterously. I still believe it is being handled better than if I was not a current mod, because I think of all the current or former mods, I remember the most what it is like to have been a basher with perceptions of peresuction, real or not, and I have been taking a stand for bashers longer than any one with colors. I'm sorry for the bashers I have upset or offended by this action and I am sorry to the mods who may have taken offense at my bluntness during this whole discussion, but this is the whole story, the whole truth, the whole reason. I know that unlocking the sanctuary today, or tomorrow, would accomplish nothing. Why? Because sooner or later, I still believe it would get locked again and we'd be right back here. Why? Because in the last two weeks since this has happened, nothing (good) has changed. But what I do believe is that we can change this situation. We can work out our differences, we can move forward and we can find a win-win situation for bashers/gushers/mods alike -- and I'm not talking compremise, I'm talking a win for everyone. But you have to be believe in the possiblity and you have to want it. I asked all of these people to be a part of this focus group, because I believed you would want to resolve this and find, whatever it might be, a solution. We have to stop thinking of people as "the problem" and start thinking of other people as means to a solution. Now, I'm all for everyone here venting their frustrations, so feel free to do so, in fact, I encourage it. But once that is done and all our cards are on the table, we have to be willing to address this and work on this: mods, bashers, PT fans alike. If this group isn't willing to do that, then this really is a waste of our time and the whole matter is a lost cause. I'm open, I've been blunt and honest and I want to work through all this. Anyone else willing to do the same? -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
Vortigern99 Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Nov '00	Date Posted: 6/4/06 12:33am Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	Darth-Stryphe that was a magnificent post. You've answered all my questions and addressed all my concerns. I, for one, see and understand your reasoning for closing the Sanctuary. I still perceive that there is no "legitimate" -- that is, "technical" according to the TOS -- basis for locking the thread, but consensus and majority can be a potent force -- no pun intended -- in any self-governing community such as TFN. In a democracy, after all, majority rules; and the "Basher" perspective/experience/sub-community is apparently by far in the minority here! As far as moving forward, I'm all for it for what it's worth. As I've said, I really like the Golden Age thread. I personally am far more comfortable categorizing myself as a "Golden Ager" than a "Basher", and the new thread feels friendlier and somehow more inviting, at least to me... though it certainly isn't anywhere near as funny or entertaining, at least so far! I have a suggestion along the lines of "healing wounds". Mods, please consider offering the Golden Agers this concession: let us bash in the GA thread -- where appropriate, of course, to the general atmosphere of O-OT adulation. A few giggle-inducing posts from the old regulars will spice things up and remind us of the Sanc(t) in a warm and fuzzy kind of way. I think it's ironic, and a little unfair, that one of the ground rules of the so-called replacement thread to the BS is that no bashing is allowed! A little bit of old school bashery might bring the ship-jumpers among us back onto deck.... -----signature----- "I knew from the beginning I was not doing science fiction. I was doing a space opera, a fantasy film, a mythological piece, a fairy tale."--George Lucas My "Vader's Origins" thread: http://boards.theforce.net/Classic_Trilogy/b10002/8708417/p1
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
rhonderoo Title: Former Head Admin Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/4/06 12:58am Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	Vortigern99 posted: I have a suggestion along the lines of "healing wounds". Mods, please consider offering the Golden Agers this concession: let us bash in the GA thread -- where appropriate, of course, to the general atmosphere of O-OT adulation. A few giggle-inducing posts from the old regulars will spice things up and remind us of the Sanc(t) in a warm and fuzzy kind of way. I think it's ironic, and a little unfair, that one of the ground rules of the so-called replacement thread to the BS is that no bashing is allowed! A little bit of old school bashery might bring the ship-jumpers among us back onto deck.... So let me get this straight... You just want to bash. Or the ability to bash. Like it's a hobby or past time. Right? And I'm not being facetious at all, I'd seriously like to understand this mind set more. -----signature----- DT421
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History
ShaakRider Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/4/06 2:38am Subject: RE: The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read
	rhonderoo posted: So let me get this straight... You just want to bash. Or the ability to bash. Like it's a hobby or past time. Right? And I'm not being facetious at all, I'd seriously like to understand this mind set more. I'd say I enjoy things about each prequel move, but nowhere near as much as I enjoyed reading some of the bashes . Many of them are well thought out, well written, insightful and passionate, and most of the time I even agree with them. Frankly, I'm not on these boards because of the movies anymore, but because of the people I grew fond of, and yes, most of them are bashers. I decided to "move on" last summer, and indeed I haven't seen any of the prequels ever since, nor do I intend to, but even now, that I don't really feel the urge to bash myself, I just cant resist visiting the Sacntuary from time to time. So, yes, I guess in a way it's like a hobby. Also, if I happen to peek into the movie forum discussions, the old frustrations resurface quite easily. Not once do I feel this "OMG, I've forgotten just how utterly stupid* this idea was..." kind of thing. So, I think, we either completely close the PT out of our minds (but that's really hard, as long as we keep talking about SW) or we can't help but bash sometimes * except that I couldn't resist taking a look at the Hungarian dubbed version of AOTC yesterday I watched only a few scenes though
	~~Locked Topic~~ \| Active Topic Notification \| Private Message \| Post History

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 - Previous | Next | Reload

[TheForce.Net] Jedi Council Forums » Inactive Forums: Jedi Council » Focus Group: Bashers, bashing and the Jedi Council » The Basher Focus Group Welcome Thread. Please Read