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Topic:
Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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Tyranus_the_Hutt
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
6/13/06 6:39am
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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So then the question becomes are mods going to mod on PC-ness? I don't support that.
Nor would I; it was more of a hypothetical extrapolation than anything else.
In any event, that's really a larger issue than what we are discussing here.
I’m sorry if that was off-topic. 
I have a question for Quix and others as well. Do you feel that these ideas are already in use?
Yes, for the most part, although I wouldn’t be opposed to the notion of re-addressing and/or modifying some of the existing threads if others felt so inclined.
(2) Dedicated thread(s) for critique, criticism, and improvement of the PT (validating basher concerns);
Here are some existent threads (in the PT forum) that might fall under that jurisdiction:
ROTS...maybe not that great?
Attack of the Cuts: A Fan Edit
Interesting Trend: Fans are warming up to TPM and distancing themselves from AOTC
Return of the Rewrites!
Possible Worst Moment in ROTS
Hayden
Has the PT helped or destroyed Darth Vader’s image?
TPM #12 in ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY's top 25 worst sequels
Are you glad Lucas made the prequels?
Vader’s "NOOOO" when he hears he "killed" Padme
Least favorite PT duel
Does the PT do justice to Anakin Skywalker?
*OFFICIAL THREAD* RotS Discrepancies, Gaping Plot Holes and Continuity Problems
What truly went wrong with TPM?
If AOTC and ROTS were directed by other than Lucas...
Did GL try to force too many OT characters into the PT?
Did George do it for the money?
Would ROTS have been a better film if it had included more suited Vader?
Worst special effects shot of the Prequels?
Another Possible Choice for Anakin
I think all of these threads raise legitimate questions as to the validity of the artistic decisions or direction of the PT, and with a couple of exceptions, they are not posed in a manner that necessarily propagates negativity; many of the above threads are intended to espouse a measure of criticism on the part of their respective authors, but their underlying conceits have been addressed in such a way that they can be used to accommodate a constructive discourse, with dissenting opinions managed reasonably in turn.
(3) An absence of drive-by posting/trolling/militantism (validating the concerns of the less critical fans);
Those things cannot ever be fully extinguished, in my view, but they can be controlled. One problem I have observed is that some users will enter into a forum without having read the index or the policy of conduct that applies to either the site as a whole, or an isolated forum; that can, I suspect, contribute to some of the difficulties outlined above. Whether or not a given user bothers to consider these matters with any perceptible amount of cogency prior to posting a new topic (or contributing to an existing thread), can’t really be controlled, so issues will inevitably arise from this type of situation.
I was originally going to cite a specific example to substantiate my claim, but I’m not sure that that would be entirely appropriate in this context (for a number of reasons).
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DarthSapient
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/13/06 7:46am
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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Part of me has always thought that as another generation emerges behind us, and the more and more this happens, the more folks may see the films as seamless and simply as episodes 1-6. Each will be judged on its own merit. I feel this separation of fans by trilogies is a product of the time in which we live. Most of the fans of the originals didn't readily adopt the PT as much as the OT. They're nostalgic for the originals and little can compare to them in their mind. Yet I've found the younger kids who saw Star Wars for the first time with the PT seem to like it and realy aren't all that harsh against it. As my generation gets older, passes on, and a new set of fans emerge, then their children grow, the films will be a huge story of father and then son and I think a lot of this gushing and bashing will eventually just diminish to noise in the background.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
6/13/06 9:02am
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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One of the things I didn't know was cleared-up for me by TwiLekJedi (here: http://boards.theforce.net/communications/b10006/23814690/p1/?19 ) with these words:
All your suggestions can be done in a normal thread in CT if you simply clarify it at the beginning (even though it might need some reminders along the way). "What did Vader's revelation/The duel(s) on the Death Star(s)/Obi-Wan's speech on Dagobah/Boba Fett's death/The Emperor's death/Leia's Hippie Dress mean before the PT/EU/Ewok movies?"
There. Discussion of Padmé, the rule of two, Dark Empire and Cindel would be totally off-topic all of a sudden.
One of the concerns of some bashers has been a perception that the OT forum is really the SE forum. But with the above clarification, that is no longer a perception of mine. Perhaps these words of TwiLekJedi (or words similar) could be added to the Classic Trilogy Forum Rules, Thread Index, and Reference Guide thread (here: http://boards.theforce.net/classic_trilogy/b10002/20582779/p1/?55 ).
This might be a minor point in the overall scheme of things, but I think it is an important one nonetheless.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/13/06 10:02am
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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Stryphe
Bashers shake their fist and talk about how our power hungry modding styles have micro-managed them off of the TFN and its sanctuary or nothing. The mods, in turn, act as if we made perfect decisions on the issue, act as if we're incapable of error, and everything would be OK if the bashers would just see things our way -- either that or they don't seem to care.
Well said.
One of the things this discussion has shown is our seeming inability to get past labels. This person is a "basher" or this person is a "gusher".
That's why I brought up someone like Hook Line and Sinker in the very beginning. He ripped AOTC as hard as any basher;yet, he wasn't pigeonholed as a "basher". He's a still a fan(despite the untimely demise of Passel Argente).
So, why do some folks escape this label while others do not?
As I said earlier, I've never met a FAN who disliked everything SW. They wouldn't be here to begin with.
There are parts of the prequels that I enjoy as much as anything in the originals.
That's why I suggested a thread where everyone could participate in criticising, but in a way that was constructive and didn't lead to endless debates and "choosing sides".
This "us vs them" crap has to stop.
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TwiLekJedi
Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/13/06 12:31pm
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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Binary_Sunset basically posted:
TwiLekJedi is awesome.
Added.
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ShaakRider
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
6/13/06 1:15pm
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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Stryphe
Meanwhile, at the JC new accounts are created almost daily. People will continue to come here for the first time who share all the basher opinions about the PT, about the SE and even EU. They will want to express those opinions. They will know little to nothing about all basher history, nor anything of ORS. What about these people? Will they feel welcomed here? Will they have a place to stay? Will they find the rules and conditions and attitudes of the regular users here and the mods to be uninviting or inviting? If we don't tackle this, then in two or three years we're going to end up right back here.
Just make Lord of the Script sticky  perhaps with some commentary on the historical context 
 actually, something like that would do good to the more established members as well...
Honestly, I don't care what happens here in two or three years. I understand the situation is frustrating to you, but I dont feel there's anything more I could do anything about it. As long as the ones in charge don't care, what are we supposed to do?
I'd very much like to try to convince the "bashers" over there that they're over-dramatizing this whole persecution thing, but right now that's just as hopeless as it is to achieve anything here, and I suppose when the FG material becomes public, things will be even worse, as both "sides" will see their theories confirmed, so yes, so far it was mostly a waste of time (not entirely though, I agree with Quix on this). Well, it sucks, but I feel I did what I could, and now I'd rather focus on RL matters, unless someone comes up with something really exciting here.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
6/13/06 2:36pm
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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Cute, TwiLekJedi.
I think some progress has been made, and I think it can be summarized in three points:
1. Both Styphe and Strilo have indicated their intentions to moderate the Golden Age Society thread with a light touch. That pleases me very much. Some bashing has and will take place in there, within the context of comparing-and-contrasting the O-OT with the PT and/or with the SEs. The Golden Age Society thread is my new "home on TF.N", and it is getting a respectable number of posts. I'm confident that the thread will slowly but surely gather steam and become a nice, comfortable thread with a feel all its own. I think lots of fans who are disenchanted with the PT and/or the SEs will post in there.
2. TwiLekJedi has made clear that the originator of a thread in the OT board can stipulate in his opening post what sources are on-topic for that thread, so those of us who don't like the PT and/or the SEs can make threads that indicate that the PT and/or the SEs are off-topic for that thread.
3. Shane's intriguing idea for one or more threads in which people explain what they would change and how in the movies has promise.
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: In time you will call me Saga Manager!
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
6/13/06 4:40pm
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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(1) The problem is behavior, not opinion (an old principle, but one worth repeating);
(2) Dedicated thread(s) for critique, criticism, and improvement of the PT (validating basher concerns);
(3) An absence of drive-by posting/trolling/militantism (validating the concerns of the less critical fans);
(4) Standards of acceptable versus unacceptable behavior (validating mod concerns over when to step in).
I have a question for Quix and others as well. Do you feel that these ideas are already in use? This relates more to 2, 3 and 4 than 1, but still...
I think 2, 3 and 4 are a bit nebolous, and thus difficult to answer. Yes, we have threads for critique, criticism, and improvement of the PT, but the bashers find these too restricting and they believe 3 and 4 are being used against them unfairly. It goes back to mainly that there are/were things they could say and do in the BS (which Strilo and myself allowed) that either aren't allowed elsewhere or are discouraged, so what are those things, and are we indeed going to start disallowing posts/styles which we previously allowed in the BS?
"In any event, that's really a larger issue than what we are discussing here."
I’m sorry if that was off-topic.
Nah, that's alright, but if we get into general posting beyond bashing, that really becomes a seperate issue. I was just pointing that out, is all.
Part of me has always thought that as another generation emerges behind us, and the more and more this happens, the more folks may see the films as seamless and simply as episodes 1-6. Each will be judged on its own merit. I feel this separation of fans by trilogies is a product of the time in which we live.
Well, seeing how other successful franchise have divided fanbases years later, I'm not so sure. But be that as it may, it doesn't change the present situation. Some people like Binary will argue it is the PT that will fade with time, others the trilogy seperations. It's academic until it happens. Even if that were to happen, it wouldn't likely for a very, very long time. What we have to address is the situation at hand.
This "us vs them" crap has to stop.
Indeed. I think your idea is fine. I don't think its "the" solution, but its a good idea all the same.
I think, as Binary has pointed out, we have have addressed the situation for the basher who is really more OOT fan than PT basher, but not everyone is like Binary.
Just make Lord of the Script sticky
Ah, but that only covers history up to January 2004
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
aka Dr. John Dorian
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/13/06 5:01pm
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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One of the things we don't allow outside the Sanctuary was Luca$.
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Binary_Sunset
Registered:
Oct '00
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Date Posted:
6/14/06 11:48am
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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Darth-Stryphe posted:
I think, as Binary has pointed out, we have have addressed the situation for the basher who is really more OOT fan than PT basher, but not everyone is like Binary.
I support extending Styphe's patented "films, not fans" rule to the boards as a whole:
1. Of course, no flaming of our fellow posters on TF.N should be allowed.
2. Equally, any bash (and, conversely, any gush) should be allowed as long as it is on the thread's topic. As I've said before, if a person gets offended because someone else has different tastes in movies, that's the offended person's problem. I don't care that people are bashing my all-time favorite movie in the "Is A New Hope.....Meh?" thread. Good luck to them. I hope they're having fun.
And that's what it's all about. As long as people are not flaming and are on-topic, all that should matter is having fun. This is only a SW message board, and as such its purpose is defined as having SW-related fun. Trying to make it something "more" than that actually makes it something less.
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: In time you will call me Saga Manager!
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
6/14/06 4:16pm
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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Yeah, I've not asked the other mods how widely inforced the "film/fan" rule is, but it does help. And even on some smaller levels. I just got down posting a warning to someone for expressing frustration along the lines of "The PT is great! You just hate the PT because of your own expectations!" That sort of posting style creates recentment amongst the fans. If we can weed a lot of that out, I think we can improve the over all situation.
In turn, we need threads that cater to certain popular opinions, mini "sanctuary" of sorts without it actually being an official sanctuary. Allow me to explain: A PT fan may be all up for arguing with bashers about this or that, but as many PT fans and I know some mods will attest, they get tired of it if every thread is a debate on whether or not this or that is good or right with the PT. Likewise in turn, the basher doesn't want to have to argue in every thread. Some threads should just be for people to enjoy and air their opinions, while the rest are discussions, debates and the likes.
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rhonderoo
Title:
Former Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/15/06 11:34am
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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Equally, any bash (and, conversely, any gush) should be allowed as long as it is on the thread's topic. As I've said before, if a person gets offended because someone else has different tastes in movies, that's the offended person's problem. I don't care that people are bashing my all-time favorite movie in the "Is A New Hope.....Meh?" thread. Good luck to them. I hope they're having fun.
And that's what it's all about. As long as people are not flaming and are on-topic, all that should matter is having fun. This is only a SW message board, and as such its purpose is defined as having SW-related fun. Trying to make it something "more" than that actually makes it something less.
I agree. One of the things I hear PT fans grumble (or yell) about is that if you bash, it's automatically about the PT or even SE. A basher is a basher. It should be for all incantations of the films actually, but I know that's historcially not the case. Another gripe is that when broad statements are made about disliking the movies, or aspects of them or bashing, it's automatically inferred it's about the PT or the SE.
I think when we open our minds to the fact that ANY of these movies should be able to be "bashed" and/or critiqued in relation to aspects of ALL of them, we'll get somewhere. This was part of the "Meh" thread. Who said ANH was untouchable? Who out there believes the movie doesn't have any flaws? Like ROTJ or ESB in CT it should be able to be looked at with objectivity like the rest of the movies. Just like the flaws the PT has, and the rest of the OT or the holiday special or whatever, opinion should be a level playing field. None of these movies should be untouchable. I think WE need to stop putting the dividing line between the trilogies and start looking at the many facet of EACH movie. There's a generation out there right now that is growing up on the prequels first (and in some cases only so far), whether some like it or not, and it will eventually be about all six, I believe.
I think WE FANS have created the dividing line and the sooner we work to get rid of it and just look at the Tatooine bits in ANH, the Hoth battle in ESB, or the Ewoks in ROTJ, or the podrace in TPM, the love story in AOTC, Anakin's turn in ROTS...whatever... the more we'll be able to post together. I understand the perception in the PT forum, but there are MANY people posting about various things they like/dislike about any given aspect of the PT movies on any given day. The same goes for CT, threads like the "Meh" thread and the threads on TESB and ROTJ, where for the most part people (when ignoring the labels (Oh no! A basher! You just love everything Lucas does, I've seen you compliment the PT!)) talk objectively about things like love/like/dislike/wish had been longer/etc. about all of the movies, OOT included. Real discussion that's just.. discussion.
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/15/06 2:39pm
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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rhonderoo
Like ROTJ or ESB in CT it should be able to be looked at with objectivity like the rest of the movies.
All our opinions are subjective. Ideally, yes, it would be great to be able to look at these films objectively, but we bring our own nostalgia, biases, point of view, education, etc. It's all subjective.
But you're are right about all films being held to the same standard i.e if the prequels can be criticised, so can the originals.
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
aka Dr. John Dorian
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/15/06 3:02pm
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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I just wanna say I agree 100% with that. I have criticisms of all six films. That's part of loving something.
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#1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past"
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: In time you will call me Saga Manager!
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
6/15/06 4:21pm
Subject:
RE: Bashing, the Jedi Council and the World of Tomorrow
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The basher culture was traditionally defined as the group that spent most of its posting time bashing newer films. There have been people out there who bash ANH and/or ROTJ (ESB to a lesser extent), but since their opinion was favorable on the newer movies, they were still considered gushers.
But, yes, all nine films (OOT, SE, and PT) should have the same bashing rights. Like Quix said, its really more behavior than anything.
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