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That_Wascally_Droid Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 6/5/06 5:36pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	I like that idea more or less. It expands nicely on malkie's idea. However, some people see enough wrong with the PT to warrant an entire rewrite. Wanting a completely different movie (which is more or less ok). There it can get tricky. Do we want another 'rewrite the PT to tailor suit you' thread? If not, what are some groundrules about that? Oh well. I still like the idea of favoring discussion amongst the points as they come up in threads. You know what I'd like to see? Each person here write something they like, and something they don't like about each film (even ESB). I'm curious. -----signature----- As has been said: Don't **** with Kenobi
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G-FETT Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/6/06 2:16am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	ShaneP posted: MalkieD2 basically put a forum for praising the movies, and another forum for critisising the movies. Would that work? But how is that different from what was before with the BS and Go-Mer Tonic's Gusher Supplemental to the BS? Why not just create new threads in both the PT and CT where you can bash, but with the caveat that whatever you bash....a line of dialogue, a scene, an entire sequence, you must offer what you think would make it better. So, it wouldn't just be: Jar Jar suxxxors! or asinine attacks against Lucas personally, but honest, constructive, open debate about what you might think would be a probelm in a film and how you would fix it. People could come in and criticise, but they'd have to come prepared to also give their thoughts, constructive thoughts, about what would be better. No personal jibes at Lucas. No one-liners about characters, actors, dialogue, etc. Well-constructed posts about, in that posters opinion,WHAT is the thing being criticised, WHY they feel it's a problem, and what they'd do to make it better. Every post would have to have this. Posts saying: "nothing is wrong,everything is perfect", or "the whole thing went wrong", etc. would not be allowed. No generalizations. It has to be specific things: line of dialogue,specific scenes,fx shot,character moment that may not fit(ITHO). You couldn't just come in and say what it is that bugs you. You'd have to say why and what you'd do better. If you have complaints about the films, stae them and then back up why you think it does. Can we have some more discussion on Shane's idea? I've commented and Butt and Malkie have commented, but I'd like to see if we can carry this compromise iodea forward a little bit. -----signature----- I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced. The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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malkieD2 Title: EuroMod™-JCC - FFUK-RSA Emeritus Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/6/06 4:48am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	G-FETT posted: I think the idea of allowing a thread in PT and a thread in CT for "educated bashing" is an interesting one. It would need rules to stop it becoming the BS mark 2 and 3. So; 1. All merchandise complaints would be off limits. 2. Lucas/Lucasfilm rants should be kept strictly to directorial decisions that were made by Lucas. 3. All post's must offer an in depth reason why you feel the thing your criticising is wrong, and positive alternatives must be given. 4. People with counter arguements to your post's are encouraged to post response's. I must admit, the idea of having a thread where people like Tyrannus_The_Hutt and Cyrogenic can critique the PT movies with people like Binary_Sunset and Patrick is a pretty exciting and interesting one - If its created and moderated properly. This really work for me, with rule 3 being the most important. It would give you the ability as a mod to remove non-constructive criticism, but also unfounded praising. ie "Lucas is an idiot", would be removed, as should "Lucas is God". What you'd encourage is "Lucas's decision to drop the Biggs scenes from ANH was a mistake to me as you lose the importance of the contributions from individual people on small planets in the galactic struggle against the Empire from the outset", and also "Lucas's grasp of human values of good and evil are conveyed so well you can't help but cheer the Rebel's on". -----signature----- HBOF There are only 10 types of people in this world; those who understand binary jokes, and those who don't. If you don't already know, you'll never understand. If you already know, no explanation is needed - KW
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/6/06 6:14am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	I don't care if it's reality or not, but you're coming up with threads that have always been allowed (but just not started, how is that anyone's fault?) or already exist to some extent. The added rule about personal insults against Lucas is something we've needed for years, but when we did edit it, we were accused of bias. Which is why there are so many of them left in the current OOT-DVD thread: because it became extremely difficult to draw the line. The added rule forbidding things like "Lucas is God" is a bit silly. He is, we have a holiday for him. Sure, "Lucas is God" is a stupid argument in any discussion, but since when are we allowed to mod against stupidity? In one specific thread it can be enforced (for both sides) because that's not what that one thread might be about, but... does that really need extra clarification? Also... we have a dozen threads in CT allowing bashing, however you define it. We merely don't allow new ones. CT is full of SE-bashing, DVD-bashing, Lucas-bashing, Ewok/Hayden/Greedo-bashing, you name it, we got it (except for Prequel-bashing, since that's just plain off-topic in CT). Yet, it's the bashers who don't feel welcome. Right. Why? Because the gushers keep shooting them down. Funny, some people might call it debating. I don't read everything, but what I read and don't touch is exactly what I allow both sides to do. The worst part about all this is that it all annoys me to no end - because I know can't do anything against it. Because I don't mod opinion. I agree about one thing in here so far: That it's all about (mis)perception. Which, btw, is why the closing of the Sanctuary is helpful - I won't be able to look up people who annoy me and see if they post in there. I'm probably not being very constructive here, but I took many of the proposed things here for granted and wonder why oh why nobody ever suggested or just plain started a thread like it before. But I really don't see the point of a "Let's discuss the CT" thread in CT. You can start a thread for every single damn scene. That's what the forum is there for. That's what it's being used for. Look at the "prophecy in the originals" thread. That's one of the best threads this year. That's a miracle, considering it's heavily based on the PT. Or the "lie/inconsistency about Luke's father" - that one even has a basher/gusher-like diversity in posters. I'd say those guys can't stand each other, and yet they provide a pretty good discussion. We shouldn't create "one thread to rule them all". We're only here because we got rid of "one thread". What is a brilliant idea is creating one new and more specific set of rules that should be applied to ALL threads in the whole movie forum category. Because I actually agree with what's being proposed here, but I don't know why it should count for only one thread? I mean, IIRC, the Three Strike Policy was thought up in a FG because of the problem with EUers/purists. Should we have created an EU thread and an anti-EU thread in CT? What about EU in all other threads? What about gushing/bashing in DVD threads (main source nowadays) outside of The One Thread? That's not a solution, that's a relocation. Another reason why I don't like one thread is... CT could use more active threads. And less of those large headache-inducing threads. I hate those. Nothing against successful threads (I love those), but we had to split up the 04DVD thread, we might split up the OOT-DVD thread and even though I never wanted it, we have a thread solely for the Hayden-thing. CT is quiet (unless they release DVDs, and even the second release barely got a mention). One more thread about old topics (everything apart from non-anamorphic DVDs is old now) doesn't really change anything. I would love dozens of those threads for CT, each specific to a certain aspect/element. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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That_Wascally_Droid Registered: Jul '01	Date Posted: 6/6/06 8:26am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	New rules could be the answer. But I think that would take a new thread (in here) so that we could focus on that discussion and come to terms everyone can agree on. Well, most could agree on anyway. -----signature----- As has been said: Don't **** with Kenobi
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ShaakRider Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/6/06 9:47am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	Yet, it's the bashers who don't feel welcome. Right. Why? Because the gushers keep shooting them down. Funny, some people might call it debating. There's a difference b/w debating and saying "that's what Lucas says, so shut up" though. Now, I'm not saying there's no real debate (and BS regulars happen to participate in them), and I'm not saying the the corresponding reaction* doesn't come from "bashers", but it's still there, and imo not just sporadically. Regarding the "persecution" issue in general, I'm willing to believe that "bashers" exaggregate the extent of it (as I personally don't see the situation as dramatic as my fellow bashers, but do share some of their feelings and opinions), and I'm not willing to believe that it's all just misperception. It's kind of insulting, when almost everyone acknowledges that it exists to an extent, save for a few people who keep telling that everyone else is just imagining things. I see no way to find out the truth about it, so I'll try to stay out of this debate in the future, but I had to get this out of my system. I agree about one thing in here so far: That it's all about (mis)perception. Which, btw, is why the closing of the Sanctuary is helpful - I won't be able to look up people who annoy me and see if they post in there. Errrr...I'm not sure what are you getting at...I mean, if you were doing that, thats a problem with you (that is, if you think it's a problem ), not with the sanctuary, or anyone else...well, unless you were joking We shouldn't create "one thread to rule them all". We're only here because we got rid of "one thread". What is a brilliant idea is creating one new and more specific set of rules that should be applied to ALL threads in the whole movie forum category. Because I actually agree with what's being proposed here, but I don't know why it should count for only one thread? I mean, IIRC, the Three Strike Policy was thought up in a FG because of the problem with EUers/purists. Should we have created an EU thread and an anti-EU thread in CT? What about EU in all other threads? What about gushing/bashing in DVD threads (main source nowadays) outside of The One Thread? That's not a solution, that's a relocation. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Though I personally wouldn't really like to have all of those rules applied to the entire forum... *that would be "it's the ORIGINAL, if you don't like it you're not a fan", did I get it right?
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/6/06 11:29am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	Twilek jedi Another reason why I don't like one thread is... CT could use more active threads. This isn't about "one thread" where you bash. That isn't what it's about. You can go into all those other threads you mentioned in CT and debate yourself silly. But, what you don't have is one thread that would require each post to be a combination bash,why, and how, all in one. In those other threads, you have examples of each, but not so often each post having all. That's what this new thread would be. You'd go in and for example: Critique: Script Scene 1: Character: "Character says this and that". Why:This is wrong for the following reasons. Examples, examples. This is also where one could submit their subjective criticism of the scene,dialogue,etc. How I'd do it: This is what would've worked for me....examples, examples.Maybe a location change? Maybe a character change? A dialogue change,etc. This would also likely contain elements of the critique to show why this is better than what was done. Comparison and contrast. The good thing about this is it'd make people think about the larger story as well. They'd have to think about how changing this one scene might change the overall story. It would require some preemptive analysis of their own criticism. They couldn't just come in and say: "Character A isn't developed enough" and then leave. They'd have to give an argument as to why they think so and how they'd make it better. People would also have to think about how changing this one scene might cause change further down the line. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/6/06 11:54am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	That's a glorified What-If-thread (or maybe the Future Changes thread - I thought people hate that thing!?) I don't even see how that has anything to do with bashing anymore. That's a 'more intelligent' thread concept where you can't count on people to keep it up. It's still a simple thread that's being artificially called special. I just don't get it. That type of thread is a good idea for a forum - but again, one thread like that doesn't fix anything. It'd be a pseudo-sanctuary to protect some people from the "difference b/w debating and saying 'that's what Lucas says, so shut up'" I can understand the wish for better reasons than "It's a Lucas-fact©", but I can't defend it becoming a requirement. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/6/06 12:13pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	Twilek jedi That type of thread is a good idea for a forum It definately wouldn't work for an entire forum. All those threads you mentioned, are debate threads. This would be a constructive criticism thread. If you applied all those rules G-Fett proposed forum-wide, you'd kill 'em. This thread would purposively have tighter requirements so it doesn't turn into a "sanctuary". There seems to be this "wish" that people could just post throughout the forums and not worry. Why do you think the Sanctuaries existed to begin with? They existed because people DID POST forum wide. Then gusher/basher conflicts broke out , and many folks who had problems with the prequels created a place where they could post without flame wars, bans, and other conflicts. You can't just expect people who've been here forever to just up and forget everything and post all across the forum. Maybe with time? But not right now. Not going to happen. What my thread proposal would do would create a place where you could continue to critique the films, but with qualifications that you explain why and propose a solution. It's positive and reasonable. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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Darth-Stryphe Title: Saga Manager Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 6/6/06 5:40pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	OK, so you come up with a scene or element that bothers you, you start a thread on it in which you give a detailed critic -- no drive-by bashing, no puns or jokes, just an honest critic... do I understand so far? If so, great, but how do you keep it from turning into a debate thread? Said PT fan who disagrees will come in and say why they disagree, said basher who agrees with person who started the thread will come in and help defend, and so on and so forth. Would you suggest we designate these as threads not open for rebuttal? Here's another idea, although I should state up front that I have not spoken with Strilo on this yet, this is just my idea I thought of this afternoon: SWC has mini-sanctuaries still. They are "topical" sanctuaries. The Golden Age thread is one, the Anakin/Padme Lovestory and Fateful Bond (discussing Obi-wan and Anakin's love/hate relationship) are the anothers. They are both movie discussion threads and commuity social threads at the same time. They don't have to take themselves too seriously, but they can. Why not have a couple of these topical threads that are favoriable to a topic popular amongst bashers? This might be good also for fans who love the PT but dislike some element and wouldn't mind having a place to talk about that one thing. You might have something like the "CG Sanitarium" for people who don't like the use of CG in SW, or the "Sith Sports Bar and Grill", where people who think the Jedi are what was wrong with the Old Republic could chat. And before you get worried that the forum would be overrun with this, Strilo and I already require these, fan clubs and most all games to be approved by us before being allowed to start, so we could very easily police the volume and contents of these prior to their starting just as we do many others. Of course, Strilo may really hate this idea, but then we could also start one to bash on Jabba's Palace and then I'm sure he'd be on board -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
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Tatooine_Fireman Registered: May '03	Date Posted: 6/7/06 12:52am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	If so, great, but how do you keep it from turning into a debate thread? Said PT fan who disagrees will come in and say why they disagree, said basher who agrees with person who started the thread will come in and help defend, and so on and so forth. Would you suggest we designate these as threads not open for rebuttal? Well, this is a discussion forum, isn't it? There are many threads that have this kind of discussion. When the discussion gets stuck because the involved parties can't change their opinions, these threads disappear for a while, and come back after a while, with a new topic, or a new view to discuss. Examples of these kinds of threads are "The Peter Jackson has offically pwned George Lucas"-thread in the YJCC, and the "SW, The Matrix or LOTR, which trilogy is better?" thread in the PT board. As far as I followed those, discussion in those threads has been quite civil. I really like your second suggestion, Stryphe. I agree on the rules too: no drive-by posting, just opinions with reasoning behind them. With such reasoning, I'm sure there will be at least a level of mutual understanding between opposing parties. -----signature----- "The Dark Side. Always it speaks to us, from our pain. Our grief. It connects our pain to all pain. Our hurt to all hurt." - Yoda, Dark Rendezvous "Look at us. Are these the faces of victory?" - Darth Vader, Dark Lord
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/7/06 4:38am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	ShaneP posted: Twilek jedi That type of thread is a good idea for a forum It definately wouldn't work for an entire forum. All those threads you mentioned, are debate threads. This would be a constructive criticism thread. That's why I emphasized "type" - of course I don't want the whole forum to turn into this. But a forum, especially CT, could benefit from that type of thread, next to the threads we already have and will always get. Especially since there are enough topics those rules don't even apply to. Aren't they mostly to keep gushing/bashing from becoming extreme? I want to apply this to all the hot topics. Because I think it's a good idea. Shane posted: This thread would purposively have tighter requirements so it doesn't turn into a "sanctuary". There seems to be this "wish" that people could just post throughout the forums and not worry. They existed because people DID POST forum wide. Then gusher/basher conflicts broke out, and many folks who had problems with the prequels created a place where they could post without flame wars, bans, and other conflicts. It is a sanctuary to avoid the gushing/bashing problem in the rest of the forum. I'm supposed to make the forum better, not make 2 or 3 groups of people happy. You don't need to speak in past tense, the only thing that has changed is the amount, but it's still there. You (and plenty of others) actually say it's a problem. Didn't some people say it actually got worse? And you don't even want to try to solve it? oh and the prequels do not concern me. I'm speaking as a CT-mod. It might be a much better idea in PT/SWC. I wouldn't know. Shane posted: You can't just expect people who've been here forever to just up and forget everything and post all across the forum. Maybe with time? But not right now. Not going to happen. I don't expect that. Sure, I'd like it. That's why I want to think of something to get there. It's only that I think this one thread doesn't help anything. It's a good concept to replace some threads with, to start new discussion about certain aspects and to reduce the mindless and extreme posts out of the existing troublesome threads. (Only... no Greedo Shoots First thread. I'll never allow a new one of those ever again and am hoping the old ones are (soon) auto-locked. Anything but Greedo Shooting First. ) Shane posted: It's positive and reasonable. I AGREE! in theory -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/7/06 10:36am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	Darth Stryphe OK, so you come up with a scene or element that bothers you, you start a thread on it in which you give a detailed critic -- no drive-by bashing, no puns or jokes, just an honest critic... do I understand so far? No, it would just be in this one thread. It'd be a designated thread for this type of debate. If so, great, but how do you keep it from turning into a debate thread? Said PT fan who disagrees will come in and say why they disagree, said basher who agrees with person who started the thread will come in and help defend, and so on and so forth. Because a PT fan just couldn't come in and say "I disagree. You're wrong. These are Lucas' films. He can do what he wants." Those would be a no-no. For instance, say someone has an idea to change one line of dialogue because it doesn't suit the character(that person's opinion). Someone else could come in and would have to accept the idea of changing it, but doesn't have to accept the content of the change. In other words, what people would then be discussing would not be whether or not a change is needed,the very idea of the thread is to submit your ideas for changes,the idea would be to accept a posters change, but suggest ways in which someone else might think would work better. That way, we're not stuck on Base 1 all the time. The thread would accept the idea that change is what it's about. If people want to debate about this or that, they could still create a normal thread for that like they always do. That's great. Those can be fast and loose debates. They're fun. But this thred can be fun too, just with a different apporach. Darth Stryphe Would you suggest we designate these as threads not open for rebuttal? You could do a rebuttal, but you must accept the premise that we're discussing changes, not keeping things the way they are. That way, we move everyone off of Base 1. A PT fan must accept that this is a thread to discuss and submit changes. The PT critics would have to accept that Jar jar does exist in the SW universe and how could they make the existing films better. No more "the whole thing is crap. Redo the whole film" overall, generalizations. You'd have to accept, as a critic, the existing prequels and SEs as a starting point. I think that's fair because it gives something to both huge fans and big critics. It gives fans the premise that the existing prequels and SEs are the starting point to critcize, while it gives the critics the idea the thread is about changes to be made and those who respond would be accepting their change,but looking for ways to make it better. You could foresee this as a response: "Okay, I see what you're suggesting. Here's what I'd do to tighten the dialogue up. So, the respondent would also have to submit a WHAT, whichever change they're referring to and what it is,HOW, an example of what they'd do to tighten the dialogue up, and WHY. That way it's constructive criticism all around. Respondents would almost be like an amendment to a change. You couldn't respond with: "No, that won't work. Keep it as it is." That argument will go round and round. You'd have to accept what the person is changing. But, you could suggest ways to make that change work better. edit Twilek Jedi I don't expect that. Sure, I'd like it. That's why I want to think of something to get there. It's only that I think this one thread doesn't help anything. That's what I think it is too: something that helps bring everyone back into a situation where they can at least go in, criticize a film,with caveats, and not expect to be shot down and told how they're not a fan. I think a constructive criticism thread would be a good, positive step forward. It's not a sanctuary, but it also allows criticism that must be responded to constructively too. Twilek Jedi It's a good concept to replace some threads with, to start new discussion about certain aspects and to reduce the mindless and extreme posts out of the existing troublesome threads. Well, I could see how a mod would like to see constructive criticism all throughout every thread, but you'd likely see alot less posting. People like more flexible regaulr threads to debate in. It should be that way. The Criticism thread would be different. It would have different ground rules because it would encourage straight-forward criticism and balancing that with a positive "make it better" attitude. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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ShaakRider Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/7/06 12:43pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	ShaneP In theory, this thread is a good idea. In reality. I'm not sure, how popular a thread with such intricate rules can become. I guess I'd give it a shot, but wouldn't keep my hopes high. It'd be also a good idea to create debate threads with this "constructive" ruleset, but I agree that more flexible debate threads are also needed. But then, creating a "constructive" and a "not so constructive" thread about the same subject would be problematic. I could imagine, in the case of the O-OT release, that a "constructive" thread could be started specifically for the anamorphic/restoration issue (as most of the meaningful discussion is centered around that), but then the existing thread might become even worse than it already is. Dunno. Now I was very constructive
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/7/06 1:36pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	ShaakRider No, I understand and you may well be right. It could blow up right in our faces and not work at all. It could die for lack of interest. We'd have to just go through and make the rules not overly complicated. Maybe the reason it sounds intricate or complicated is because I'm not doing a good job explaining it? lol. I just think it would be a great step towards bringing critics back into the movie forums proper by creating a thread allowing them to criticize/bash, but having some qualifications so it doesn't turn into another sanctuary or another debate thread. It would also encourage participation by fans because it would accept as a basic premise the idea the prequels and SEs exist as the starting point to the criticism. The thread would just be a way of taking that further step of: Okay, the prequel and SE films exist. They're now a part of SW history. So, what do YOU think,WHY, and what would YOU do? -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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