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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/7/06 4:03pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	ShaneP posted: Twilek Jedi It's a good concept to replace some threads with, to start new discussion about certain aspects and to reduce the mindless and extreme posts out of the existing troublesome threads. Well, I could see how a mod would like to see constructive criticism all throughout every thread, but you'd likely see alot less posting. People like more flexible regaulr threads to debate in. It should be that way. Since I have the more bashing-heavy topics for that kind of thread in mind anyway, a decline in posting in those is totally fine with me. I could do very well without someone starting up a 2-9 year old argument again. But I won't be so lucky. Of course we'd keep, for example, the DVD Changes thread open. As a general thread, pretty much like it's now, for people to debate if they want, post their random posts and suck-lists, never to be seen again or whatever they do. Forget that I said it'd be good for the whole forum. I don't think I could stand modding a whole forum like that No, I do like my quick and often random (in a good and bad way) posts about everything under the binary sun. I guess I just think it'd be a good thing to influence our modding style. Now all you have to do is change the definite article into an indefinite one and I'm a step closer to being happy. Sure, we can start with one, but one that has one topic (i.e. the Hayden-ghost, TESB-Ian, Yoda in ANH, whatever) and if it works can branch out. Yeah... what if this thing crashes and burns? That won't make CT/PT/SWC better places, now, will it? -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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G-FETT Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/7/06 4:18pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	I'm pleased that we're still working on Shane's idea. I think this definatly gives us the best way to move forward, that we've seen posted so far. I think the really great twist is that its starting from the premise that thing (say Portman's acting in AOTC) is wrong, and its about how YOU would improve it. So, we can't get loads of people running in to defend Portmans acting (for example) and the whole thing ending up in a flame war. Instead everyone who posted would have to post constructively about what they think it wrong and how they would put it right. Maybe every week or something the topic could be changed, that way the discussion would constantly stay fresh? -----signature----- I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced. The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/7/06 4:49pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	G-Fett Instead everyone who posted would have to post constructively about what they think it wrong and how they would put it right. That's right. And those fans, those who disagreed with what someone was posting, could still go in and post, they'd just have to agree with the premise of the change but could try and make the critics suggestion better. Maybe every week or something the topic could be changed, that way the discussion would constantly stay fresh? That's not a bad idea. It'd have limits like Moleman's CT-PT ones, but in one thread instead of several. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/9/06 5:17am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	what if people want to continue discussing that one topic, but it's week or whatever is over and then it's off-topic? Start a new thread... for a discussion that made another thread succesful? I still don't get why it has to be one thread and I really don't want just another (potentially) huge thread. Again, the idea can start with one topic (pick a good one) to see if it even works at all. If it does, I don't see any reason not to expand it. But they should all deal with one topic. There aren't that many options anyway (after all, a thread like that on a tiny detail is unnecessary). Okay, potentially there may be, but people only discuss the same 10-15 things again and again. Also, some of this should generally influence the whole forum. Yes, it's impossible to change the whole atmosphere overnight, but if CT is such a bad place for whichever group, I'd like to see at least an attempt to remedy that. Hence my EU-example earlier. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/9/06 10:34am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	Twilek Jedi I still don't get why it has to be one thread and I really don't want just another (potentially) huge thread. Okay, good question. I think one thread to start with is the right way to go. This would be an experiment and thus, we wouldn't want to dilute it or the rest of a froum with many threads like it. It would be a slow work-in to see how it works out. As for your question about changing topics when some other discussion is still going on: I think that's something to discuss. G-Fett just brought it up yesterday. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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G-FETT Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/9/06 3:30pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	Well, you could either do what Moleman does with his CBC threads, and post a new one every week to 10 days or so, but keeping all the old threads open for discussion. Or you could just have one single thread and change the topic either when the conversation looks to have run out of steam, or at the end of some pre determind point (a week, two weeks, three weeks, etc...) It would be kinda fun to have a system where-by users themselves could request which topics are discussed. You could create a list of topics for discussion, and then mark them off one by one. -----signature----- I felt a great disturbance in the force. As if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror. Then were suddenly silenced. The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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Quixotic-Sith Title: Manager Emeritus Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/9/06 4:58pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	G-FETT posted: Or you could just have one single thread and change the topic either when the conversation looks to have run out of steam, or at the end of some pre determind point (a week, two weeks, three weeks, etc...) Of all the ideas I've seen proposed, this has the greatest appeal to me. As I see it, if one starts a new thread for each constructive discussion, you run the risk of having the forum dominated by them (akin to the "lax social thread policy" concern in YJCC). Further, there are other parallels that have been successful in other fora (e.g., the Senate Current Events thread). It always irked me when conversation stagnated (and that happened in the Sanctuary from time to time), which is why I began exploring other fora to begin with. The Sanctuary managed to cover very diverse terrain, but was able to stay continuously on-topic for the five years it existed in various forms, which is very impressive by any standard. -----signature----- Cressbeckler 2008!
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Cryogenic Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 6/9/06 6:03pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	Can I say some things that are going to be really unpopular? Isn't that why we're here? To say our piece as openly and honestly as possible? I'm going to blow the lid off a group of people. This will not be pretty. You can be shocked. You can get angry. But everything I'm about to say is true. Let's not beat about the bush any longer. We all know where most of these disgruntled bashers now reside: ORS, or to give it its full name, The Outer Rim Sieges. I have had an account there practically since its inception, when it was still struggling to find direction, but I haven't posted in months due to the flagrant hostility and woeful lack of civility that has now taken over. It is, in many respects, the anti-TFN. Members are allowed sprawling avatars and signature pictures, some of which would be totally unacceptable here (e.g. one member has an animated GIF of Mario/Baby Mario, of "Super Mario Bros" fame, getting his throat cut), they can use profanity and often do, and they can make entire threads based on the thinnest and most horrific reasoning. There is an enormous chorus of resentment towards TFN, too. Right now, Master Shaitan has a picture of an Obi Wan look-a-like with a beam going to his head, and the caption, "Welcome to TF.net!" overlaid; the implication is that your capacity for free thought is erased the moment you register here. That shouldn't come as a surprise -- just look at his current signature here. And that's not all... There's a very popular thread right now entitled, "Do Anakin Loyalists Have Weak Personal Character?" and it is comprised of over twenty pages. Here is a verbatim copy of the beginning of the opening post: EwokThatCried posted: Are "Anakin loyalists" just morally-confused, emotionally-disturbed, psychologically-unstable, and woefully self-absorbed people with little regard for personal accountability and sacrifice? I think so. Here is the end: EwokThatCried posted: posted: Anakin: I need Padme and want to marry her! You: I need gay marriage! Anakin: Spying on the chancellor is treason! You: Wiretapping international calls of terrorists is illegal! Anakin: I deserve to be a master! You: I deserve a $2000 mastercard! Anakin: I am better than all of you! You: I am better than all of you! And it goes on and on and on... You all love Anakin because he reminds you of yourself. And it's all so unfair isn't it? No one treats you as special as you need to be treated, even though you don't deserve it because you suck at being a listener, a learner, a leader and someone willing to make sacrifices. Anakin was so lame. And so are you. Let me say again: this thread has over twenty pages to its name (which translates into hundreds of responses). The mods and admins, former TFN members, let it continue, not even expressing an ounce of trepidation, despite the fact that it is harassment and bigotry (notice the anti-homosexuality reference) cloaked in the language of discussion. That's just one example. Let me expound on how certain types of bashers flaunt rules. Get_in_Gear was banned from TFN for posting an avatar of Penn, from Penn and Teller, miming out the phrase, "Shut the ** up!" Several people at ORS have since expressed their incredulity at this decision. But shouldn't it be obvious? While amusing, and not something I personally take a shred of offence to, it goes against the TOS here. Yet these people acted like TFN had just shown its true colours -- as if a new rule spontaneously emerged the moment Get_in_Gear posted what he did. But it didn't. I'm not saying I don't swear on here from time to time, but posting an image, even a humourous one, where someone is pointing aggressively at you to be quiet, and using obvious profanity to do it, is certainly unacceptable here. This was a person looking to be banned and then become a martyr for his cause. Of course, everything fell into place for him, and in his deluded eyes, he's right and TFN is wrong. There is also a thread in The Outer Rim Sieges' own "Basher's Sanctuary" entitled: "TF.net issues". The first post begins by labelling this site as an "oppressive regime" and encourages people to offer their thoughts. It is currently eleven pages long. I have read the entire thing. The TFN staff are given all manner of coarse epithets and are accused of being egotistical, narcisssitic and power crazy. Of course, not all of these remarks are confined to this one thread; Master_Shaitan, for instance, deemed one staff member a "self-obsessed lesbian" in the aforementioned thread regarding "Anakin Loyalists". Stryphe sometimes gets nice things said about him -- but that is as far as their charity goes. Par for the course, this "Focus Group" gets imaginatively re-titled to ** Group", and all contributors generally think that TFN is beyond saving. Wampa_Joe even has a signature that reads: "TFN member in exile." DarthPoppy lambasts rhonderoo for starting a thread entitled, "Is ANH... meh?" and can't see why a title like, "What if TPM had been a good movie?" is categorically unacceptable (rhonderoo's title posits a subjective viewpoint; the latter is a leading question). They're also planning to bombard this board on the day that the O-OT is released on DVD. Hudnall is behind that. They are full of melodrama and fury. These people act like they're above TFN and that they don't need it, but in reality, it seems that they do need TFN, and every post they make about it betrays that underlying need. Let me put that last part a second way. And let me keep it to a subject close at home. On another message board, which shall remain nameless, it was my misfortune to encounter several excessively negative individuals. These individuals took it upon themselves to constantly deem the PT a "failure" and a "colossal waste". Now, aside from the fact that these are big charges, there's nothing wrong with stating one's opinion. Unfortunately, however, these people made themselves look like idiots: they claimed that everyone had "forgotten" about the PT and that they had "put it behind" them, but in reality, these individuals were the ones constantly bringing it up, in dedicated Star Wars threads and even in other threads that had nothing to do with George Lucas or Star Wars. Based on my experiences there, and at various places elsewhere, both on the Internet and in real life, on a variety of issues and subjects, I have noticed an inescapable trend: many hateful people cannot see the hypocrisy under their own noses. It's like a literal "Dark Side" really exists and actually clouds real human minds. So here is a pertinent question: Do we really need any of these people here? AT ALL? The word "compromise" isn't in these people's vocabularies. Bringing them to the discussion table was a mistake. They won't accept anything less than the re-opening of the Basher Sanctuary, and even if that was done, it's clear they've felt marginalised for a long time, so the bad blood would simply remain. But here's a thought: rather than TFN outgrowing them, maybe they simply outgrew TFN? There's nothing wrong with that. And I don't think any of these guys and gals are bad people. But they clearly don't like what TFN is. So why cater to them? These are the sorts of people who are never happy and always want something to bash; that's one of the reasons they clamour the reinstatement of the Basher's Sanctuary so much and won't accept a whole spectrum of alternates (Golden Age thread, threads on SE/DVD alterations, threads on CG Yoda vs Puppet Yoda etc). Ranting is fine. Swearing is fine. Violent images are fine. Just not here. But these people can't understand that. They are attached to TFN in some capacity, and like Anakin, those attachments are giving them a sense of righteousness and entitlement. I'm sure the more reasonable bashers can be reached. ShaneP and ShaakRider are the sorts of guys we should be talking to. But don't worry too much about appeasing the rest; they've found their new sandpit and they seem happy enough playing in it. Everyone has to bend a little on a message board -- particularly one as broad and universal as this. If I don't like the rules or atmosphere of one bar, I'll simply move on to the next one. That's what these people have done. But why should that earlier bar bend over backwards to accomodate me? There's room on this Internet for more than one type of board. Like I said, this was never going to be a popular post, but all of that needed saying. Bashers were allowed and encouraged to be as forthcoming as possible -- and here I am, a gusher, levelling up the score. TFN has been thoroughly ripped apart at ORS. ORS members, formerly TFN members, have also come back here from time to time, causing trouble in their wake. As far as I am concerned, these people have made their bed, and now they can happily lie in it. TFN is what it is. Is their room for improvement? Yes -- like anything in life. But some people just aren't interested in having an adult dialogue. It's their choice and their problem -- not ours. I'm not saying any of this to cause trouble, but I certainly am saying it to give you a fuller picture. That is all. -----signature----- I have a great admiration for George. These films are very well-intentioned. All right, they make tremendous amounts of money and appeal to kids, but they say good things, and they say them in a broad way. I believe in the Star Wars films. - Ian McDiarmid
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ShaakRider Registered: Nov '02	Date Posted: 6/10/06 3:21am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	For an even fuller picture: I read the thread you mentioned a bit further, and found that the board regulars didn't seem to take it all that badly, the discussion went on, and some good points were made. As far as the hostility towards TF.n goes, if it goes on much longer, I'll be worried too. The whole thing is way overdramatized, I'll give you that. The bashers who got their threads locked, or banned were often looking for trouble, I'll give you that as well. I didn't really follow the history of bannings and lockings, so I have no way to know, how much of this is real "oppression". But I think, time will solve much of it. As for the alternate name for this FG, I can't help but feel that it's rather fitting so far, although I have to admit that both "sides" are guilty in that. DarthPoppy lambasts rhonderoo for starting a thread entitled, "Is ANH... meh?" and can't see why a title like, "What if TPM had been a good movie?" is categorically unacceptable (rhonderoo's title posits a subjective viewpoint; the latter is a leading question). To me, rhonderoo's title and opening post (and some of her later posts in the thread) convey that she was fully aware that the title is provocative and she was in fact anticipating the "negative" reactions, and was only too glad when she got some. Yes, the title is formally acceptable, and DarthPoppy's is formally questionable (and more clearly provocative), but I don't see them as much different as you make it out to be. I believe DP was saying that either both should be considered as baiting, or neither, which is debatable, but not obviously false. I have noticed an inescapable trend: many hateful people cannot see the hypocrisy under their own noses. It's like a literal "Dark Side" really exists and actually clouds real human minds Well, the same stands for many "positive" people as well. And I don't think any of these guys and gals are bad people. you ceartinly didn't come across like that I'm sure the more reasonable bashers can be reached. ShaneP and ShaakRider are the sorts of guys we should be talking to. But don't worry too much about appeasing the rest; they've found their new sandpit and they seem happy enough playing in it OK, WTH are you trying to say with this? So I'm not beyound saving yet? That's great to hear. There's much truth in your post overall, more than I like to admit, but if you suggest that all of the guys who left the site can do nothing but mindless bashing, and are uncapable of "adult discussion", well, that's not true.
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/10/06 5:53am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	Quixotic-Sith posted: Further, there are other parallels that have been successful in other fora (e.g., the Senate Current Events thread). Very interesting example. I think I like it (even though it's the Senate ). In CT we could have one for similar topics - changes that already happened, popular changes people ask for sometimes (like Yoda/Palpy/Senate in ANH, various people surviving or dying) and ... I don't know... minor details stop bringing up the ANH-meh thread up as an example. I allowed it, no I urged her to open it, because it was somthing new and we had fun over the shock about her opinion - you can read the whole conversation preceeding the thread in the.... I think it was the Mobile Social Thread. While, of course, I don't know if roo is in secret the evil mastermind manipulating the gullible CT mod in public (wow, that's Palpatine-esque!), I only allowed an innocent thread - complementing similar threads about TESB ("is it all that great?") and RotJ (forgot the title... something like "why is RotJ so unpopular?" or so). Personally, I find the TESB thread much more outrageous. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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Strilo Title: PT Manager on reduced time Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/10/06 7:01am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	ShaakRider posted: There's much truth in your post overall, more than I like to admit, but if you suggest that all of the guys who left the site can do nothing but mindless bashing, and are uncapable of "adult discussion", well, that's not true. I don't think he was trying to say ALL of them are like that. I know I have tried hard to avoid such drastic generalizations. However, there ARE a number of users like that involved in this situation and there have historically been users like this at the JC in my time here. I would also like to state that this mindset he is critisizing, and on which I am commenting, exists on both sides of this situation. They are what Quix and I referred to as Militant Users. Now, related to this thread's topic I will say this: Persecution is way too strong of a word. No way. However, in the history of the JC forums as I have experienced it, there have at times been moderators with a strong anti-"basher" bias. I saw it with my own two eyes. There are to this day many users with a strong bias of this sort as well, they just have no power to do anything about it. Is there misperception in this issue? Absolutely. Is there reality? Absolutely. But the mods we've had over the years since 1999 were and are not perfect. Some brought their own biases and opinions to the moderating table and were unable to separate them successfully. Now hopefully the cries that no one will admit this bias will start to go away. It is also important to remember that no one exists in a vacuum and sometimes biases develop because of the actions or attitudes of a given person. For example. Straight guy is tolerant of gay guys, doesn't know too any but tries not to let it be a big deal. Then works with a gay guy at work who hits on him. Straight guy says "no thanks I am straight" in the nicest way possible. Said gay guy continues to hit on straight guy mercilessly, ignoring all protests and requests to stop. Eventually, straight guy goes ape and beats the crap out of gay guy. Gay guy then cries homophobia. Now this is clearly an extreme example, but I have seen this happen before. I pose this scenario simply to illustrate that so many times, people's actions are reactions and sometimes bias has a legitimate origin. -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: R.E.M. "Imitation of Life" #1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past" * * * * * * "You wonder if your chance will ever come Or if you're stuck in square one."
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/10/06 8:55am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	MThere is no need to denigrate any of our fellow fans over on the Outer Rim Sieges (ORS) board. It's all very straightforward: 1. All the Sanctuary regulars (including myself) recognize that closing the Sanctuary was unfortunate. 2. The moderators and administrators make it clear that the Sanctuary will not be reopened. 3. The Sanctuary regulars are given a warm welcome at ORS board and are allowed to continue the Sanctuary there. Many, if not most, of the Sanctuary regulars start posting in ORS. 4. Many of the Sanctuary regulars post in ORS about how unhappy they are with TF.N boards. IMO, their complaints tend to be on a lower key than the hysteria I remember from many (primarily moderators and administrators) during the Phillip Wise thing with the names and addresses. "Let him without sin cast the first stone." It is simply human nature to complain about unliked decisions. Anyone who loses any sleep about what someone says about him on a message board needs to pull up his shorts. I don't have a problem with what is going on at ORS. I wish them the best of luck. I hope the Sanctuary there is as successful as it was here prior to its lock. While I wish that LSHB, Patrick, and all the rest would stay and post in the Golden Age thread, I understand their decision not to. The only reason I haven't moved right along with them is that I'm mostly tired of bashing right now. The parameters of the Golden Age Society more closely approximate what I'd like to do right now in terms of SW fandom.
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/10/06 10:20am Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	Well said Binary. I told LSHB there that it seemed you had decided to move on from bashing right now. I mean, you were the originator of the first BS and it's only fitting that you would move on and let the basher younglings take over. Everyone has their limit. You even said you'd rather discuss the OT than bash the PT. That's perfectly understandable. Cryogenic, I'm over at ORS too and as Binary and Shaak pointed out, it is what it is. The rules are in the open and stated up front. As such, there's going to be alot of venting going on, from all of us there. But I'm here too. Why? Because I want to be. I want to help find a solution to all this. It's there, IMHO. In fact, I think malkie, G-Fett,and all the others, including myself, have floated ideas that, if not a solution on their own, perhaps as a whole. There is some success in this already. We have some ideas on the table. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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Cryogenic Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 6/10/06 3:28pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	ShaakRider posted: As for the alternate name for this FG, I can't help but feel that it's rather fitting so far, although I have to admit that both "sides" are guilty in that. Thanks for bringing yet more clarity to this thread, ShaakRider. I feel you are probably correct. I'm not perfect. But neither was I trying to marginalise every last person who has a complaint about something. I simply saw, and continue to see, a bitter contingent that needed commenting on. Patrick Russell, one of the more vocal bashers who partook in this thread, said he refused to sugar coat things, and I was simply following the same core philosophy. If a basher can have their say, I am entitled to have mine. I realise you're not saying otherwise, but as far as discourse goes, I didn't think anyone had really talked about what's going on elsewhere, and what the mentality of some of these people -- rightly or wrongly -- actually is, at least as it pertains to the main issues under discussion. My post is just one piece in a larger puzzle. For what it's worth: I sent a copy of my last post to both DarthSapient and Darth-Stryphe, seeking their advice and permission, before submitting it. They both consented. ShaakRider posted: DarthPoppy lambasts rhonderoo for starting a thread entitled, "Is ANH... meh?" and can't see why a title like, "What if TPM had been a good movie?" is categorically unacceptable (rhonderoo's title posits a subjective viewpoint; the latter is a leading question). To me, rhonderoo's title and opening post (and some of her later posts in the thread) convey that she was fully aware that the title is provocative and she was in fact anticipating the "negative" reactions, and was only too glad when she got some. Yes, the title is formally acceptable, and DarthPoppy's is formally questionable (and more clearly provocative), but I don't see them as much different as you make it out to be. I believe DP was saying that either both should be considered as baiting, or neither, which is debatable, but not obviously false. With all due respect, while the title of rhonderoo's thread wasn't necessarily as tactful as it could have been, I think it was designed to engender fresh discussion: you don't hear people questioning the status of ANH too often (and there are many good reasons for that, but nonetheless, it should still be possible; film is a subjective medium after all). It was a refreshing take on a beloved film, and in my opinion, there is little wrong with that. By contrast, Poppy's suggestion retreads tired ground, and is framed in a provocative and incendiary manner. ShaakRider posted: I have noticed an inescapable trend: many hateful people cannot see the hypocrisy under their own noses. It's like a literal "Dark Side" really exists and actually clouds real human minds Well, the same stands for many "positive" people as well. True. ShaakRider posted: I'm sure the more reasonable bashers can be reached. ShaneP and ShaakRider are the sorts of guys we should be talking to. But don't worry too much about appeasing the rest; they've found their new sandpit and they seem happy enough playing in it OK, WTH are you trying to say with this? So I'm not beyound saving yet? That's great to hear. Are you taking that as an insult? I detect sarcasm. It was meant to be a compliment. I guess that your focus really does determine your reality. ShaakRider posted: There's much truth in your post overall, more than I like to admit, but if you suggest that all of the guys who left the site can do nothing but mindless bashing, and are uncapable of "adult discussion", well, that's not true. Not all of them. Perhaps none of them. But many seem unwilling or unable to treat this matter in an adult fashion; once it was stressed sufficiently that the basher's sanctuary would not be re-opening, several people left this "Focus Group" and have not returned. Leia's Starboard Hair Bun also responded to a post of mine with a single word. Such behaviour reflects poorly on those that exhibit it. Strilo posted: I don't think he was trying to say ALL of them are like that. I know I have tried hard to avoid such drastic generalizations. However, there ARE a number of users like that involved in this situation and there have historically been users like this at the JC in my time here. I would also like to state that this mindset he is critisizing, and on which I am commenting, exists on both sides of this situation. They are what Quix and I referred to as Militant Users. Indeed. Another example of how bashers flaunt the rules has sprung up since I last posted. You might be interested in this one, Strilo. It's the last example I'll be giving, but it shows you just how current of an issue it really is. Jedi_Keiran_Halcyon posted: So, there's this thread in PT called "Which scene in the PT was the most emotionally shocking". The opening post doesn't provide any specificity or qualifiers, it just goes like this: For me it was when Shmi died in Anakin's arms (esp. when her head fell slack). The look on Anakin's face says it all. Pain, confusion, grief, sadness, anger. And I felt all of it with him. The entire audience sat in stunned silence. The shock of the audience was almost tangible. So I felt that left a lot of room for a completely honest answer. I posted: Does the moment when I realized Lucas had somehow managed to screw up Vader's 2.5 minutes of PT screentime count? I found it rather horrifying that all he had to do was show Vader and have JEJ say something. My heart dropped watching FrankenVader and hearing perhaps the worst 'NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO' in the saga coming from the actor from whom I least expected it. I earned an 'edit' from everyone's favorite mod: Strilo edit: This is a drive by bash and does not remotely answer the question. Though I don't know how it's an edit if he didn't change anything I posted; it's more a commentary. I sure thought I answered the question. So I sent a PM: There wasn't really anything in the question to suggest that my answer wouldn't be adequate. In my three initial viewings, THAT scene did in fact produce the greatest emotional shock to me. Nothing in the question posed said anything about 'what was the most shocking moment that you LIKED' in the movies. And I wouldn't really call it a drive-by post, since I actually explained WHY I found the scene shocking, unlike most of the other responses in the thread. Strilo's response: The thread is looking for discussion of the films, of the story moments. This was not an opportunity for you to simply bash away. There are threads to discuss those elements of ROTS that you did not like. Please use them. I didn't see anything in the opening post to suggest the discussion had to be quite so specific as he says. Do you guys? I'm debating keeping up this conversation just to annoy him. That would be the only reason, since he's certainly not going to come around to the rational side. See? Some people are obsessed with negativity and won't let go. ShaneP posted: Cryogenic, I'm over at ORS too and as Binary and Shaak pointed out, it is what it is. The rules are in the open and stated up front. As such, there's going to be alot of venting going on, from all of us there. I understand that ShaneP, and I appreciate that people are angry and upset, but does that make their behaviour acceptable? I think those rules you refer to are loved so much by these people that they have outgrown the regulated nature of TFN. And that's fine. But they also seem to act like -- no, have indeed stated -- that TFN has edged them out. But that's not my perception at all. I can understand why they're saying that, but in my opinion, it's simply untrue. Y'see, rather than focusing on the positive -- that a basher's sanctuary existed at all and existed for something like five years -- these people can only see the negative. I'd be a little miffed if I spent time there and it was suddenly shut down, but resentment and a paper cup will get you... a paper cup. Darth-Stryphe, and his fellow mods and admins, were up front in here: the sanctuary isn't coming back. But certain bashers acted like that entire idea was unacceptable. If they didn't, they'd still be here engaging with us, wouldn't they? I respect those -- like yourself -- that have stayed. It shows a willingness on your part to listen and to talk. I don't know the future. If it was up to me, I'd have left the sanctuary open, but I'd also permit profanity and the presence of adult content (not necessarily system-wide, but certainly within specific forums). But it's not up to me. Seen through the context of TFN's rules, and the desire of the mods and admins here to cultivate positive pastures over negative ones, I think the closure of the sanctuary, and the subsequent creation of a "Golden Age" thread, as well as the continued existence of threads in which criticism is permitted across the board, is fair and reasonable. I hope these guys are happy elsewhere. Sincerely. But TFN doesn't need to be, nor can it be, everything to everyone. -----signature----- I have a great admiration for George. These films are very well-intentioned. All right, they make tremendous amounts of money and appeal to kids, but they say good things, and they say them in a broad way. I believe in the Star Wars films. - Ian McDiarmid
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Darth-Stryphe Title: In time you will call me Saga Manager! Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 6/10/06 7:16pm Subject: RE: Basher Persecution: Misperception or reality?
	Cy's made some good points. I don't agree with everything, but he's made some good points. I've read through that thread, and my initial reaction was to be embarrassed that I ever stood up for the Sanctuary. That being said, we should not allow this to re-inforce negative sterio-typing. People who hate the JC should no longer be our concern, but we have bashers, even from the ORS, who still want to be a part of this community and should work to make sure these guys have a home here, too. -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
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