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Author	Topic: Final thoughts
Darth-Stryphe Title: In time you will call me Saga Manager! Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 6/20/06 10:55am Subject: Final thoughts
	OK, we've had a lot of chatting here these last couple of weeks, so now its time to draw things to (a few) conclusion(s). As of now, this much is certain: the sanctuary isn't coming back and many of the sanctuary regulars have choosen to leave and have decided not to coming back, either. These elements are a done deal and no longer worth worrying about. However, bashers remain. So, for those who do and who feel the current situation needs (or could use some) improving upon, what ideas would we like to explore and take action on? Let's take another week to review these ideas and hammer them out. -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/20/06 12:21pm Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	1) My idea for criticism threads dealing with each film, later evolved by G-Fett and Quix with stipulations and a possible "revolving" topic to keep discussion going. 2) Malkie's proposal for creating a gusher and basher thread I would mention Cryo's humour thread, but can see it was already shot down because the owner would not agree with it. Other than those, I don't know. I'm pretty much posting as I always have. Not much in the last few days because of RL, but still in the PT. Fact is, there are some folks who are critical of the PT who don't have problems posting in that forum. That's an observation I've made recently once all this happened. So, what can we do in addition to those regular discussion/debate threads that already exist? Should anything else be done? edit diction -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/20/06 3:01pm Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	I think Shane's suggestion for criticism threads has merit. I am happy that my suggestion has been implemented: One of the things I didn't know was cleared-up for me by TwiLekJedi (here: http://boards.theforce.net/communications/b10006/23814690/p1/?19 ) with these words: All your suggestions can be done in a normal thread in CT if you simply clarify it at the beginning (even though it might need some reminders along the way). "What did Vader's revelation/The duel(s) on the Death Star(s)/Obi-Wan's speech on Dagobah/Boba Fett's death/The Emperor's death/Leia's Hippie Dress mean before the PT/EU/Ewok movies?" There. Discussion of Padmé, the rule of two, Dark Empire and Cindel would be totally off-topic all of a sudden. One of the concerns of some bashers has been a perception that the OT forum is really the SE forum. But with the above clarification, that is no longer a perception of mine. Perhaps these words of TwiLekJedi (or words similar) could be added to the Classic Trilogy Forum Rules, Thread Index, and Reference Guide thread (here: http://boards.theforce.net/classic_trilogy/b10002/20582779/p1/?55 ). Thank you, TwiLekJedi!
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Binary_Sunset Registered: Oct '00	Date Posted: 6/20/06 3:27pm Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	I'm also glad that Stryphe, rhonderoo, and Strilo all agree with the following: I support extending Styphe's patented "films, not fans" rule to the boards as a whole: 1. Of course, no flaming of our fellow posters on TF.N should be allowed. 2. Equally, any bash (and, conversely, any gush) should be allowed as long as it is on the thread's topic. As I've said before, if a person gets offended because someone else has different tastes in movies, that's the offended person's problem. I don't care that people are bashing my all-time favorite movie in the "Is A New Hope.....Meh?" thread. Good luck to them. I hope they're having fun. And that's what it's all about. As long as people are not flaming and are on-topic, all that should matter is having fun. This is only a SW message board, and as such its purpose is defined as having SW-related fun. Trying to make it something "more" than that actually makes it something less. I've bolded what I think is the most important sentence. I think it would be good if we could get additional mods and admins (and especially the head admin, Darth Sapient) to post their agreement with that here. If it is the clearly stated policy of TF.N boards as a whole that any bash and any gush is OK as long as it is on the thread's topic, and if this policy is well-understood by the entire Mod Squad, and if it is uniformly followed by each member of the Mod Squad, that would be a very good thing. Perhaps the bolded statement above (or a paraphrase thereof) could become part of the TOS, or perhaps entered in the Rules & Announcements boards. In the event of a dispute over a gush or a bash, it would be nice to have something in black-and-white that everyone could refer to.
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/20/06 4:18pm Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	I support extending Stryphe's patented "films, not fans" rule to the boards as a whole: 1. Of course, no flaming of our fellow posters on TF.N should be allowed. 2. Equally, any bash (and, conversely, any gush) should be allowed as long as it is on the thread's topic. One more suggestion: the Anakin/Padme Love Club should be closed. It should be done in the interests of all involved. No clubs means no clubs. edit done. edit2 Okay, so what is not allowed as a gush or a bash? We'd probably need more explicit language in the rules so there's a clear threshold between acceptable/unacceptable. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/21/06 7:44am Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	Binary_Sunset posted: 2. Equally, any bash (and, conversely, any gush) should be allowed as long as it is on the thread's topic. As I've said before, if a person gets offended because someone else has different tastes in movies, that's the offended person's problem. Actually, I'd emphasize the second sentence. That's often the source of the problem and indeed, it leads to all the arguing that people in here have said is what they have (or had) a problem with. A little arrogance is actually helpful - some posts are so stupid (but alright to say), they don't deserve a reply by me. Other people reply and say it's stupid. That's when the trouble starts. I wholeheartedly agree that we need a good well-formulated rule for what's un/acceptable. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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Cryogenic Registered: Jul '05	Date Posted: 6/21/06 9:26am Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	ShaneP posted: edit2 Okay, so what is not allowed as a gush or a bash? We'd probably need more explicit language in the rules so there's a clear threshold between acceptable/unacceptable. I agree. This has "slippery slope" written all over it. I just found out that one of my friends on here has no less than THREE names. Why? He says he feels marginalised as a basher. Now, the people at ORS are too vocal and too disrespectful for me to care about, but when I heard this off him, a moderate, cool, collected guy, it hit me like a ton of bricks. What is going on? Also... TwiLek. Have you been banning on people on a whim? It has been indicated to me that some OT-lovers were baited by some PT-gushers over the O-OT on DVD (so many acronyms -- aargh!); the PT-gushers basically said, and repeatedly said, "you're getting what you want, so shut up!" which eventually caused the OT-lovers to retaliate; the OT-lovers were banned. I was also informed that you then chipped in with more or less the same sentiment ("you're getting what you want, so shut up!"). This is unacceptable. I don't like it when people bash or gush incessantly, but if people are being banned, let's make sure it's for the right reasons, and not just because a mod/admin is feeling shirty. Sorry if I'm sounding shirty, but considering all the resentment of late, I want to see fair treatment for all. I'd hate to think that this Focus Group finishes with central issues like these outstanding. The reason I'm asking you this, twilek, is because you wrote the following in another thread here on the issue of the closure of the Basher's Sanctuary: "I agree about one thing in here so far: That it's all about (mis)perception. Which, btw, is why the closing of the Sanctuary is helpful - I won't be able to look up people who annoy me and see if they post in there." It reveals your bias. I'm not saying I'm not biased, but then, I'm also not a mod. Be careful of the Dark Side. Easily, it flows... Let's not close this Focus Group yet. The main discussion may be over, but in light of what I've heard, there may be more to cover. The marginalistion of bashers, or any group of people, is a serious thing. I question what has been accomplished to alleviate this. In spite of me sticking the boot in before, from a certain point of view, I don't want anyone pushed away unless they've truly deserved it. We have to be careful. A new interview has just come out with Mark Hamill. It's very empowering stuff for bashers -- or for anyone with critical thinking skills. We need to ensure that all sides are given an equal voice, or, more accurately, an equal opportunity to project it. The despondency of bashers may be bigger than I thought. Now, while I think many are given to negativity, because that's primarly what bashing is all about, it shouldn't mean anything if they're being respectful. And, to refer back to what I've heard regarding these latest bans, even though the OT-lovers did perhaps begin flaming, it sounds like they were pushed into it, and those that pushed them into it got away clean. That's not right. We need a balanced environment here. -----signature----- I have a great admiration for George. These films are very well-intentioned. All right, they make tremendous amounts of money and appeal to kids, but they say good things, and they say them in a broad way. I believe in the Star Wars films. - Ian McDiarmid
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ShaneP Registered: Mar '01	Date Posted: 6/21/06 10:00am Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	I agree more needs to be said about the whole "feeling of being marginalised" by ANY person on the boards. -----signature----- It was as if a million middle-aged virgins just farted with rage and were suddenly silenced.
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/21/06 11:14am Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	How are bans of other people a topic for this FG? But anyway, they ignored a mod-warning. Nothing to do with baiting or "it's what you deserve" comments. Don't believe everything you hear, especially not from the 'victims'. It was thread-derailment and I didn't care who said what exactly. They posted about the wrong topic and had prior notes about this sort of thing (!), so they got banned. Whim? Please... it took me half an hour to remove and edit all those posts, I had plenty of time to think about it. Whim, they say. Bah, I say! My BS comment was supposed to illustrate the point that the BS enhanced (mis)perceptions. I am biased. Everybody is. We just try really hard not to act on it. See my little rant toward the end of one of the locked threads here. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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Darth-Stryphe Title: In time you will call me Saga Manager! Registered: Apr '01	Date Posted: 6/21/06 4:12pm Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	Twilek, I think what they are getting at is what can we do to ensure we mods don't act out of bias (as much as possible). 1) My idea for criticism threads dealing with each film, later evolved by G-Fett and Quix with stipulations and a possible "revolving" topic to keep discussion going. This idea was real recieved. Can you maybe go ahead and get some action on this one idea? 2) Malkie's proposal for creating a gusher and basher thread I thought that was gusher and basher forums, which was shot down. Did I miss something about threads? I would mention Cryo's humour thread, but can see it was already shot down because the owner would not agree with it. Wait, a humor thread? I don't see the problem with humor threads. Why was it believed the owners wouldn't allow a humor thread? Other than those, I don't know. I'm pretty much posting as I always have. Not much in the last few days because of RL, but still in the PT. Fact is, there are some folks who are critical of the PT who don't have problems posting in that forum. That's an observation I've made recently once all this happened. As I said in the now-locked thread, I did just the other day chat with Loco_For_Lucas on the issue, and he agreed with this assessment. He actually felt the sanctuary culture was counter-productive for the basher culture, and helped to develop thinner skins which lead to the idea that you couldn't post outside the sanctuary. It was interesting to hear, coming from such a die-hard basher as Loco. That makes me wonder, what is Loco doing right that the other bashers are doing wrong? How is it he can bash (and believe me, it's real, authentic bashing that he does) in places like PT, CT and Saga while other bashers believe they will be censored (or worse) for their actions? Loco also pointed out that other well-known bashers also have no trouble bashing outside of the sanctuary and mentioned Green Destiny Sword and JohnWIlliams00 as examples (both authentic bashers). I'd be curious to see a dialogue between them and the bashers who think they can't go elsewhere. One more suggestion: the Anakin/Padme Love Club should be closed. It should be done in the interests of all involved. No clubs means no clubs. Again, this is a "topical" sanctuary, not a general one. It's the "we love all PT"/"We hate all PT" type clubs we want to avoid not the "we like [x] within the [x]". Even the GAS is topical because it focuses on a kind of OT, not the OT in general. These topical sanctuaries have never really been a concern because they are more like "fan clubs", only not as specific to a singular character. -----signature----- Lord of the Script, it's FABULOUSO: http://boards.theforce.net/Star_Wars_Community/b10012/8237772/p1 The Desperate Road: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/23481819/p1 I love you, lonely Dewback on the ridge Az Isten áldjon meg!
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Loco_for_Lucas Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/21/06 10:11pm Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	Thanks, Stryphe. And honestly, yes, to a degree the Sanctuary had become rather counter-productive. It's a shame to see such a long standing thread go, but simply because it's gone, doesn't mean one HAS to be censored. I, for one, don't take it as censorship, but more like Mom and Dad saying it's time to move out into the world (and no, I'm not pulling a "geek in the basement" analogy, but a "it had to happen eventually" analogy). I mean, come on, it was inevitable. The Sanctuary had to close down eventually. There was no reason for it to stay open, it's just a thread like any other in the end. True, it had some really sweet moments, but just because there's no Sanctuary, doesn't mean there still can't be bashers. If bashing dies, it's only because we bashers allow it to. We're putting too much emphasis in the wrong place. We shouldn't kick and scream, whine and moan over a thread. It's just a thread. Some ones and zeroes in the macrocosm that is the Internet. We shouldn't let a thread define us, let it do our speaking for us, identify us as a "movement;" it's just a thread. It can be closed, it can be lost, it can be edited. The movement is so much more. As a movement, we can go anywhere, jump into any conversation, and make a point. Illustrate our opinions, and the opposed will have to learn to deal with it and accept it, like we are expected to tolerate theirs. By the Sanctuary closing, it forces people on both sides of the aisle to get a thicker skin. I'm not saying people didn't, but if they didn't, now's the time to start. If they did already have it, like many of my colleagues on this board, then rock and roll, bash away, my friends. I personally don't need the Sanctuary. Yes, I enjoyed posting there, it was fun, and there were some awesome people there, but I never really found myself attached to it. I enjoyed the rest of the boards. It's like visiting New York City and staying in your hotel room because it's too cold/dark/dangerous. The fact it's cold, dark, and dangerous is what makes it an experience. That's part of the reason of going out. Sure, you could get stabbed, but hey, at least you were out experiencing the city to its fullest. The Sanctuary's gone, big deal, I say. It sucks, yes, but hey, no one is saying I can't bash anymore. If I stop bashing, it's not because someone said I can't. It's because I decide I don't want to here anymore. Ultimately, that's what seems to have happened with some of my Basher Bretheren. Now, don't get me wrong, I love them all, but the thread was closed, the ones who made them leave were themselves. I still bash on a regular basis here, as Stryphe and Cryo can attest to (Cryo, your debate skills give me a run for my money, I give you HUGE respect points for that, man ), and will continue to do so til I reach the point in my life when I don't want to anymore. The only one who can silence me is me, and no one else.
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Loco_for_Lucas Registered: Aug '02	Date Posted: 6/21/06 10:16pm Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	Plus, I agree with Shane. If the Sanctuary is to be closed as a social thread, then so should the other social threads as well. I believe that's part of the PR problem and why the accusations of bias are being flung around. If the "positive" social threads stay while a percieved "negative" one closes, it looks a little fishy. I know it struck me as odd, and still does. Fair is fair, if the Sanctuary is to go down, then the others should too. That's where the feeling of marginalization comes in, bashers have their place taken, but the Anakin-Padme lovers keep theirs even though the films are over and done with. I think the boards should have a stance on social threads. Have something for everyone, or none for anyone. Either rebuild the Sanctuary or take all the others down. The Sanctuary wasn't necessary or truly functional, and neither are those other threads, so there should be some consistency.
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Strilo Title: PT Manager on reduced time Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/22/06 1:02am Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	But see the Sanctuary was not a social thread. And neither is the Anakin/Padme Love Story Defenders thread. The Sanctuary was just that. A Sanctuary thread. Like the TPM DF or the AOTC DF. Those have now all been locked. The AP Love Story thread is pretty much a fan club. It focuses on a specific aspect of Star Wars and says "we think this kicks ass." The GAS thread is exactly the same. It too focuses on an aspect of Star Wars and says "we think this kicks ass." -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: R.E.M. "Imitation of Life" #1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past" * * * * * * "You wonder if your chance will ever come Or if you're stuck in square one."
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malkieD2 Title: EuroMod™-JCC - FFUK-RSA Emeritus Registered: Jun '02	Date Posted: 6/22/06 1:44am Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	My overall impression is that the administration see it as an easier option to silence the bashers - I think it's rather sad really. I want to repost that if any criticism requires evidence/support to be acceptable, then any gushing also needs to require evidence/support to be acceptable. Otherwise you are maintaining a double-standard. If "the OT sucks ass" is editable, then so should "the OT rocks". -----signature----- HBOF There are only 10 types of people in this world; those who understand binary jokes, and those who don't. If you don't already know, you'll never understand. If you already know, no explanation is needed - KW
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Strilo Title: PT Manager on reduced time Registered: Aug '01	Date Posted: 6/22/06 1:59am Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	Actually malkie I do try and do that. But here's my deal: A statement like "The PT sucks ass" might be okay in a given thread. To me it's more important that the comment is germaine and relevent to the thread's topic. If an acceptable thread for discussing the cons of the PT allows for someone to say "I think the PT sucks ass." then I would not edit it. A lot of it is context. it is when a user comes into a thread discussing the use of CG to generate entire characters and how they interact with live actors and posts "The PT sucks as" that it's a problem. Generally Stryphe and I historically have tried to discourage the same types of unsubstanciated comments from both sides of the issue. -----signature----- #1 on iTunes Most Played: R.E.M. "Imitation of Life" #1 on iTunes Film Scores: Harry Potter "A Window to the Past" * * * * * * "You wonder if your chance will ever come Or if you're stuck in square one."
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TwiLekJedi Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager Registered: Jun '01	Date Posted: 6/22/06 2:04am Subject: RE: Final thoughts
	I wish that were my biggest problem. Or my only one. -----signature----- We do what we must Because we can For the good of all of us Except the ones who are dead
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