| Author |
Topic:
Final thoughts
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Loco_for_Lucas
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 2:37am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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Strilo posted:
But see the Sanctuary was not a social thread. And neither is the Anakin/Padme Love Story Defenders thread. The Sanctuary was just that. A Sanctuary thread. Like the TPM DF or the AOTC DF. Those have now all been locked. The AP Love Story thread is pretty much a fan club. It focuses on a specific aspect of Star Wars and says "we think this kicks ass." The GAS thread is exactly the same. It too focuses on an aspect of Star Wars and says "we think this kicks ass."
That's the thing though. The Prequels are over, ROTS had ended, and thus Episodes I through III have as well. If the Prequels have ended, which was one of the basis behind closing the Sanctuary, then any other social thread regarding the Prequels must be treated as thustly. The Sanctuary BECAME a social thread, in that people of a certain mindset met and started socializing in a thread, and USING that thread to meet and discuss things they agree with independently of the forum itself. The Anakin/Padme thread can exist independently of the forum just as the Sanctuary could have, it formed its own forum elsewhere, so that means the Anakin/Padme thread can too, unless it is a lesser thread and movement.
That's the thing, the "club" that developed is no different than the other. The Sanctuary is no different than the A/P thread, both subscribe to a stance in Star Wars that is hard to detract from, and each is willing to fight tooth and nail for its purpose. The only difference is, one has had its thread shut down while the other has its own remain opened.
My point is, allow a Basher's Sanctuary to remain open as a symmetrical thread to threads like the A/P thread, or shut down social threads built around the PT that have served their purpose now that the PT is over. What's good for the Sanctuary is good for other threads. They can take their love for the Anakin-Padme romance to the rest of the boards like bashers have had to with their opinions. Fair is fair. A/P is just as conditional as the Basher movement.
What I said before hasn't changed. This is more for the mod staff, in that, this is where the root of the problem lies, in my opinion. It shows where the 'bias' comes down in the view of many a basher. One thread is closed, while, objectively, it is no different than the next Prequel conditional thread, and the OTHERS stay open. Close them all down, it shows an unilateral attitude towards Star Wars, that the Saga is now complete and it shall be approached as thus by ALL PARTIES, or the line in the sand shall be drawn and one group shall be singled out and their thread will be closed. True, it's just a thread, but it's still a statement being made, and if it's disproportionate, it will be seen as such.
Close down one social thread and close down all, or enforce all and make ALL threads extremely relevant. Bring down the hammer of god on ALL THREADS, and thus make the A/P thread discuss only A/P matters to keep them on topic.
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 3:21am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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There is a degree of socializing in many threads in SWC. It's the nature of the forum. People socialize in the Fan Clubs, they socialize in the game threads too. To eliminate that entirely would be to remove the element of fun from the JC and the SWC forum in particular. I have no interest in doing that. Stryphe and I do ask that, especially in game threads, people try to keep the socializing to a dull roar and keep the majority of their posts relevant to the game somehow. People also socialize in the A/P defenders thread. They do in the GAS and they do in the Obi-Ani brotherhood thread. There was also socializing in the Sanctuary as well. But this does not make them social threads. I see a clear distinction between the Sanctuary threads we had that were locked and the Fan Clubs that remain open.
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ShaakRider
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 3:33am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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OK so it's clear that it'a quite possible to post (bash) outside the Sanctuary, and in fact many bashers did so before it was closed, and many of those who moved, still keep posting here. It's clear that differing opinions are tolerated to an extent, but I also have a feeling that some of the stuff posted in the Sanctuary could not be posted elsewhere (though it would be really nice, if certain mods made clear, whatever they find acceptable bashing). I'm sure that some of the bashers who got into trouble were actually looking for trouble, and I think this persecution thingy is way overrated in general, but I don't think it's completely unfounded. BTW I suppose "bashers" wouldn't feel half as persecuted, if this issue with the Sanctuary had been handled with more tact.
It's also clear that some of the mods and admins have a deep dislike for bashing. While I believe that they try not to act on it most of the time, I think sometimes the do. The way the Sanctuary was closed illustrates this quite well - the strongest opponents of the BS apparently oppose it mostly based on prejudices. Sorry, I still don't buy this ******** about "closing all sanctuary threads". For one thing, the BS did function as a social thread, even if "officially" it isn't one. And as far as I'm concerned, the A/P thread is sanctuary thread as well. The distinction between the "topical" and the "emotionally focused" (or whatever they're called) sanctuary threads is quite an arbitrary one.
The Sanctuary might have been counter-productive in some ways, dunno, (that would be worth debating among bashers) and might have been just a thread but it was still a masterpiece of a thread, and actually a lot less repetitive than most of the debate threads, and, for me, the chief reason to stick around here.
Loco,
I disagree with the notion "it had to happen eventually" - I don't think it had to, though, in hindsight I guess we should have expected it. But even if it had to, it it were really like "Mom and Dad saying it's time to move out into the world", it might have been acceptable. But now all I see, that the administration tries to play "Mom and Daddy", but lacks the prestige and the honest care needed to play such a role convincingly.
Strilo edit: Swearing is not allowed.
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 3:39am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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Calling Stryphe and myself liars is not going to really contribute anything constructive to this discussion.
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ShaakRider
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 4:21am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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Strilo posted:
Calling Stryphe and myself liars is not going to really contribute anything constructive to this discussion.
I didn't call anyone a liar. But I do feel you're just making excuses, and I do feel that you deeply despise bashing. I'm well aware that I might be wrong (and don't get me wrong, I believe you're trying to be correct anyway and greatly respect you for it), but that's what comes across from many of your posts. Sorry.
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TwiLekJedi
Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 4:39am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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We should have had a third thread: 'Mod-bias - Misperception or reality?' ...
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Strilo
Title: PT Manager
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 5:52am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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ShaakRider posted:
Strilo posted:
Calling Stryphe and myself liars is not going to really contribute anything constructive to this discussion.
I didn't call anyone a liar. But I do feel you're just making excuses, and I do feel that you deeply despise bashing. I'm well aware that I might be wrong (and don't get me wrong, I believe you're trying to be correct anyway and greatly respect you for it), but that's what comes across from many of your posts. Sorry.
Shaak I do not despise bashing. If I did how could I be close friends with Stryphe? How could we have co-moderated successfully together for 2+ years? How on earth could I have SO MANY ISSUES with ROTJ?!?! Honestly I have no issues with bashing the SW films as I do it myself!
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"Corrupt, you corrupt and bring corruption to all that you touch.
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G-FETT
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 8:33am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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I'm still very interested in the idea of "constructive criticism" threads in PT and OT forums. I would love to hear from the mods of these forums, whether you guys think such threads are viable and how you would to see them created. 
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The Saga returns; August 15th 2008.
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RebelScum77
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 9:29am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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I guess I still fail to see why constructive criticism shouldn't be encouraged in EVERY thread, why do we need a thread just for it?
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ShaneP
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 10:50am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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Loco  to everything you said. You, GDS, and a few others proved there is life after sanctuaries.
rebelscum77
I guess I still fail to see why constructive criticism shouldn't be encouraged in EVERY thread, why do we need a thread just for it?
Precisely because you wouldn't be encouraging it in this particular thread, but requiring it.
It'd be a way to take a step away from the regular debate/discussion threads that dominate the PT and others. It would almost be like a combination of what the bashers did, the gushers did,as well as what the fan fic and fan film threads do in their respective forums.
It's like a big combination that allows the different "factions" to come together and approach our differences with some universally accepted requirements(official prequels as the standard, the starting point,etc).
You wouldn't want this for every single thread. Where's the fun in that? Some threads you want to be able to have a regular back and forth and debate with people. Those need to be a little fast and loose.
Sometimes you want to just quote someone and put a  or other next to it.
This thread idea would be more regulated.
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Loco_for_Lucas
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 10:56am
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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ShaakRider posted:
The Sanctuary might have been counter-productive in some ways, dunno, (that would be worth debating among bashers) and might have been just a thread but it was still a masterpiece of a thread, and actually a lot less repetitive than most of the debate threads, and, for me, the chief reason to stick around here.
Loco,
I disagree with the notion "it had to happen eventually" - I don't think it had to, though, in hindsight I guess we should have expected it. But even if it had to, it it were really like "Mom and Dad saying it's time to move out into the world", it might have been acceptable. But now all I see, that the administration tries to play "Mom and Daddy", but lacks the prestige and the honest care needed to play such a role convincingly.
Oh, I won't debate it being a great thread. It was one of the funnest places on the board. 
Also, when I said "had," I didn't imply that it was necessary for it to be done away with, but rather it seemed inevitable to me for a long time that it was going to be shut down. Like I said, it sucks that it's gone, but I had a feeling it was bound to happen eventually.
And Shane, thanks. *takes a bow*
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: Saga Manager
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 4:16pm
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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I want to repost that if any criticism requires evidence/support to be acceptable, then any gushing also needs to require evidence/support to be acceptable. Otherwise you are maintaining a double-standard. If "the OT sucks ass" is editable, then so should "the OT rocks".
This is a fare point. Both are technically spam. There may be place for this kind of post in a semi-spam-ish forum like SWC, but not in CT, PT and Saga if we are to be consistant with our modding.
If I stop bashing, it's not because someone said I can't. It's because I decide I don't want to here anymore. Ultimately, that's what seems to have happened with some of my Basher Bretheren. Now, don't get me wrong, I love them all, but the thread was closed, the ones who made them leave were themselves.
Well said. It was a point I tried to make to our now-gone bashers.
Plus, I agree with Shane. If the Sanctuary is to be closed as a social thread, then so should the other social threads as well. I believe that's part of the PR problem and why the accusations of bias are being flung around. If the "positive" social threads stay while a percieved "negative" one closes, it looks a little fishy.
Well Strilo has already covered this, so let me then address the added comment about symmetry:
I think it is entirely reasonable that if a topical "gush" fan thread is allowed that a topic "bash" fan thread should also be allowed. For example, have a thread dedicated to bashing use of CGI in the Saga (since this topic is very popular, or should I say "unpopular" with the bashing crowd). These types of threads would only be allowed in small numbers, but, in fairness, in SWC we always control the amount of certain types of threads. This is to prevent one from being too rampant, so this is nothing new.
I have suggested this before, but no one has commented on it.
Now, the idea of symmetry was brought up in regards to the AP Thread and the Sanctuary. The AP Thread and Basher Sanctuary are not symmetry. One is a topical gush, one is whole-sale bashing. Where is the whole-sale gushing thread? But, a topical bash (again, picking my CGI bashing thread as an example) and an AP Thread would create symmetry.
The distinction between the "topical" and the "emotionally focused" (or whatever they're called) sanctuary threads is quite an arbitrary one.
I don't agree. I spent a fair amount of time modding the AP Thread. I can tell you, for a fact, that there are a number of pro-PT fans that wouldn't (and didn't) want to post there (I did have a few PT fans confide their dislike of that thread to me). It's a thread dominated mostly by female fans who think Hayden is the hottest thing and feel sorry for both Anakin and Padme. Many people there actually relate (or try to relate) to Anakin's willingness to become a Sith because he was dealt a bad hand and still meant well through it all.
There are a number of PT fans who think all three films were great, but don't think Hayden is a hot-babe-magnet and don't think Anakin's action were understandable or worthy of sympathy. If these guys want a sanctuary, of sorts, topical or non-topical, where do they post?
A similar type of problem actually created the "Fateful Bond" thread. There were people who weren't entirely comfortable in any Anakin-type or Obi-wan type fan.
The GAS is a basher thread, of sorts. By old school definition people who thought the O-OT is far better than anything else were considered bashers, on some level. In one of the early posts in that thread, DarthHomer came in and says "well, there was another golden era, in the late 90s and early 2000s", I basically politely said "not as far as this thread is concerned". Many would consider this bashing. But, if you need something a little more edgy, suggest another topical thread.
I guess I still fail to see why constructive criticism shouldn't be encouraged in EVERY thread, why do we need a thread just for it?
Mandy, I believe the point was to have a place to discuss the constructive criticism but not to debate it.
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Darth-Stryphe
Title: Saga Manager
Registered:
Apr '01
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 4:21pm
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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Loco, if you could, there is something I'd like you to address. Many bashers told me recently that they felt they could not post outside of the sanctuary, that they would be censored. Some of these people said they were being censored or unfairly treated by mods for posting honest basher opinion.
Now, my experience with you is that you post some very expressive basher opinion in a number of forums. I don't think you water down your POV or opinions at all. You say you have no trouble bashing outside the sanctuary. You've not complained about mod treatment or censorship. Do you feel unfairly treated? If not, what is it you are doing "right"? How is it you are able to bash, while others can't?
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Loco_for_Lucas
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 4:39pm
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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Hmmm, that's a good question.
lol
I've never had a problem with the modship, and I was an active poster in the ROTS forum at its most insane. I really can't say what it is that I'm "doing right," other than just simply not taking any attacks and such to heart. As long as I follow the TOS, keep to the "films, not the fans" credo, and stick to making my point, I find there isn't a reason for the mods to get after me, even if they disagree with my views. Simply put, I'm just following the rules.
Given that, I never really felt a need for a sanctuary.
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TwiLekJedi
Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/22/06 4:50pm
Subject:
RE: Final thoughts
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Darth-Stryphe posted:
I want to repost that if any criticism requires evidence/support to be acceptable, then any gushing also needs to require evidence/support to be acceptable. Otherwise you are maintaining a double-standard. If "the OT sucks ass" is editable, then so should "the OT rocks".
This is a fare point. Both are technically spam. There may be place for this kind of post in a semi-spam-ish forum like SWC, but not in CT, PT and Saga if we are to be consistant with our modding.
Their potential spamminess isn't the problem, it's that they (often) incite reactions that bring down the whole thread. Therefore, case-by-case. "The PT sucks" is almost always in the wrong place in CT. "The OT sucks" and "The SE sucks"... well... where? One is completely at home in the O-OT discussion thread, the other one in an SE thread. I'll let everyone figure out by themselves which one belongs where....
not that it matters all that much. my special mutant power is that I can make people leave by making one edit unrelated to a b-word with an explanation they don't like.
Shouldn't someone write up something that we can use afterwards? Those better guidelines for what's acceptable and what's not. A good set of regulations for those criticism-threads. We know what they're supposed to be there for by now...
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