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Topic:
Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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DarthSapient
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/23/05 1:22pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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That certainly is possible. No matter what, I want you to never be intimidated or afraid to send me something. It's always an open door. Now saying though there are a few vocal people and the rest remain quiet because they feel the vocal one's represent their concerns may very well be the case. What may also be the case, again playing devil's advocate, is that it really is a small number of users with a problem and all the other people not saying anything aren't aware of it, don't care, or don't consider things to be as dire as the vocal one's make it out to be. The truth is in there somewhere.
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Thrawn McEwok
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
6/23/05 2:03pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
- Date Edited:
6/23/05 2:05pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Thrawn McEwok
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Sape: But can a few users with grievances who are verbose, love to write tomes, and PM a lot necessarily the true feeling of the Fan Fic forums? Probably not. Grievances are welcome. Some are justified, some aren't.
Well, most of the grievances in question have been made in public in the "Issues" thread here. Perhaps, if you have the time, you could explain why you didn't think they warranted taking action? That might clear up some things - even if you focus on just one or two...
You must have hundreds of users in that forum yet how many people do you think bring issues privately to me via PM about Fan Fic, specifically about a mod? I'll tell you. Very few.
Nevertheless, complaints were made. Are you saying that you need more names, more voices?
Well...
... we got more than thirty signatures on a no-confidence petition in about six days, without much public advertising on the boards. More were still coming in at the end, and there were further people who sympathised but weren't comfortable with signing....
You could even make a case that Dana discriminated against particular writers - for instance, is it any coincidence that TKeira_Lea is one of "these people" who she ranted against in the Fan Fic Awards thread - and, if such things are indicators of popularity, one of the most widely-replied-to authors here, and one of the most voted-for in the 'fic awards...?
*sigh*
Perhaps that's all just the way we see it. But all I can say is that Dana could do more to persuade us that we're missing something.
Anyway. Let's move on. How do we fix this mess and prevent these sorts of situations arising again?
- The Imperial Ewok
-----signature-----
A/T = OTP  "To write one Solo twin as an angstbunny, Master Skywalker, might be considered unfortunate. To write BOTH that way looks like carelessness."
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red_rose_knight
Registered:
Sep '01
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Date Posted:
6/23/05 5:17pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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DarthSapient posted:
But can a few users with grievances who are verbose, love to write tomes, and PM a lot necessarily the true feeling of the Fan Fic forums? Probably not. Grievances are welcome. Some are justified, some aren't.
Now saying though there are a few vocal people and the rest remain quiet because they feel the vocal one's represent their concerns may very well be the case. What may also be the case, again playing devil's advocate, is that it really is a small number of users with a problem and all the other people not saying anything aren't aware of it, don't care, or don't consider things to be as dire as the vocal one's make it out to be. The truth is in there somewhere.
In this post above and others you’ve referenced a small number of users making the complaints. Out of curiosity, how many people have to say something is broken before someone says, “There might be a problem?”
There were PMs, the Comms thread(s) that eventually led to the creation of the Fan Fiction Survey, the Comms thread when the survey seemed ignored by the mods and led to the creation of the first Focus Group, then the “Where Have They Gone” thread that’s near a thousand posts or the formation of a second Focus Group all in six or so months?
How many people from across the fan fiction community’s demographic base does it take to be considered not a small issue? People, who back in JG’s time, were known to go ten rounds with each other are now agreeing and saying something is broken.
The reason I ask is if this is merely a small group of disgruntled users who are pissy about a few things and not representative of the community at large, then why are we all wasting out time with this FG? The few complainers will eventually get over it or leave and most people won’t notice. Right?
Issues, right or wrong are out on the table, and until they are addressed and until users know where things stand, they will continue to fester. It’s just another case of everything that has gone on for months. Have fan fiction mods made strides for change? Yes. There used to be complaints about LadyPadme and Healer Leona. The same complainers are giving them kudos for their efforts now. Things change, things have improved, the problem is there is still a massive hole in the mod/user relations. It is not solely the work of a few verbose writers that are stirring the pot, but a lot of people.
Look at the registration dates of the vast majority of the people raising complaints and issues. These aren’t newbies. These are people who were around when Julie, Talon Squad Leader, JediGaladriel, Amidala Skywalker, Kit and Renata were mods. They know how things are supposed to be. They know, dammit, that this is not right. The fan fiction community should not be here, not now. We should be wrapped up in post-ROTS writing euphoria and discussion.
The thing is, for the most part, users are not asking for massive upheavel, they are asking for the way things used to be. They are asking for mods that are a part of the community, that answer questions when asked, and that make their actions in threads clear. This has been asked for in various threads and many, many posts. None of this happened overnight and there were lots of chances to start correcting the problems before the gulf got as wide as it is.
How many fanficcers does it take to say something is wrong to make this FG worth the time and effort? How many people have to say “I have no faith that anything will change?” To make this FG useless?
To be honest, right now I’m hearing a lot from the latter.
I prefer to think something good will come out of this FG, a lot of good conversation has started in the socialization and communication threads.
-----signature-----
The beautiful part of writing is that you don't have to get it right the first time, unlike, say, a brain surgeon.
– Robert Cromier
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ophelia
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/23/05 6:21pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
- Date Edited:
6/23/05 6:25pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
ophelia
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I understand that the admins all have lives, so I'm going to try and make this as reader-friendly as possible.
Sapient posted:
Now saying though there are a few vocal people and the rest remain quiet because they feel the vocal one's represent their concerns may very well be the case. What may also be the case, again playing devil's advocate, is that it really is a small number of users with a problem and all the other people not saying anything aren't aware of it, don't care, or don't consider things to be as dire as the vocal one's make it out to be.
Summary:
The problems in fanfic do not involve a small number of users, even when "problems in fanfic" is defined so as to limit it to the concerns of those protesting the moderators. I analyzed three Resource "drama threads," which contained posts by 139 users. Of the 139, I found 71 individuals who were unhappy enough about mod-user relations to post about it in a public forum. This represents about 51% of the total group of 139. Additionally, in an independent randomized survey I did back in April, I found that "quiet" users who avoid Resource drama threads were about evenly split between those who were happy with the mods and those who were not.
Altogether, this data represents 160 people. After ensuring that no one was counted twice, I was left with 76 people who had notable concerns related to mod/user relations, or approximately half the total. While I am unable to estimate the true population of the FF boards or completely control for self-selection, I think it's fair to say that "a small number of users" is not an accurate description of the group that is upset.
Methodology
As FG1 was starting up, I went through the Fanfic Survey and Survey Response threads and tallied up what people's major concerns were, trying to get an idea of where our priorities ought to lie. There were 76 responses when I went through the thread, and I found mod-related issues listed 64 times under the categories of "most disliked thing about the forums" and "if there were one thing you could change." People often listed more than one thing, so 64 responses doesn't necessarily mean 64 people. Today I went through the thread again, up through replies posted at the end of March, and counted 40 people who mentioned mod-related issues as a significant concern of theirs. I broke down by sub-category the responses of those who said they felt "satisfied" or "neutral" with the forums:* By sub-category:
-- Greater presence desired: 20
-- Inconsistency: 15
-- Be more politic: 8
-- Reduced presence desired: 4
-- Other: 5 There were only 11 people who said their feelings about the forums were negative, and I didn't see big enough clusters of data there to do an itemized list. (The text of the whole survey examination is in my bio if you want to see the original.)
As it happened, I also went through the Survey Response thread earlier this spring, as part of my preparation for a second, randomized survey. Crossover from the Survey thread was almost 100%, and a few new people joined the conversation. I ended up with a list of 83 names.
At one point I had also planned to analyze the "Where Have They Gone?" thread, looking for trends in the ebb and flow of mod-drama on the boards. Then I found out that someone else had done something similar already, and quit for a while. Sape's concerns (and the fact that my las class ended today) led me to go back to the thread and go through it again.
As of the beginning of June, there were 96 names in the WHTG thread. Of those, 57 people self-identified as "rebels" or expressed agreement with the rebel position, 16 self-identified as "loyalists" or expressed agreement with that position, and 24 were self-declared neutral or didn't make their opinions clear. All were obviously affected by the problems the boards were having, otherwise they wouldn't have posted in the thread.
I was quite surprised to find that there were only 36 names that appeared on at least one of the survey thread lists and also on the WHTG list. That leaves us with 143 individuals who posted to one thread or another. I subtracted out the mods, since they have to act as referees and can't really give personal opinions on such matters in public. That leaves 139 people. When I made sure I didn't count people twice, I found 71 individuals who were unhappy enough about mod-user relations on the boards to post about it in a public forum. This is about 51% of 139 people. Was everyone's opinion that the problem was "dire?" I have no idea, but I can tell you that several people remarked that the "Where Have They Gone" thread was one of the fastest-moving they'd ever seen--500 posts in 48 hours--and that it appeared to be a spontaneous explosion of user frustration. The individuals who wrote the "no confidence petition" had planned to post it within hours of the spark that set WHTG off, if I recall correctly. The petition was supposed to be their public statement. WHTG was, frankly, a type of e-riot--no one planned it, the thread was actually supposed to be about something else. It was as if somebody got mad and threw a punch, and the next thing you know the place had exploded. By the time the dust settled, 96 people had been through that place, 59% of which were expressing anti-mod sentiments.
"A few" unhappy users cannot cause a spontaneous outpouring of fury like that.
I'd also like to mention that I did a randomized survey trying to compare the opinions of usres who avoided Resource drama threads with those who posted in them. Of these individuals, half thought the mods were doing a pretty good job, and half had concerns. This is a lot better than the less-than-ten-percent mod approval rate I found in the Resource survey threads, but it is also not "nothing." Very nearly every highly-active user on the boards has been involved in this mess in some capacity, and as of April, the effects had managed to discomfit half the people who normally don't care about such things.
Do every single one of these people consider the problem "dire?" I don't know, because I can't measure "dire," and I didn't try to ask. Most likely, opinions run from the wildly passionate to the tentative. I think that comparatively few people would self-identify as "rebels" or "loyalists"--it seems to largely be a smaller group of passionate people who self-identify in that way. ("Small" in this case being maybe 30-45.) Just about everybody is upset, however, whatever they call themselves, and the focus from the beginning has been on mod-user relations.
I'm not sure how else to explain this so that its significance registers outside of FanFiction. Resource has utterly melted down once, and the person who has generally been considered our thickest-skinned mod was temporarily driven off the boards entirely. This was really FF's low point, but there have been some close calls in other cases. The anger and drama has negatively affected the real lives of both mods and users. I could make predictions about what might happen in the future, but the future, of course, is "always in motion." Suffice to say that there are some potential futures that are dire.
I'm not aware of anyone who *wants* admins in here, telling us how to run the forums--people don't even want the mods doing that. When a group that traditinally values its independence begs for outside mediation, it is a sign they feel that they are facing something potentially disastrous.
-----signature-----
Oh, but anyway, Toto, we're home!
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DarthSapient
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/24/05 7:45am
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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The last thing I want to do is affect how you guys run and have always run your forums. What I want to do is help you guys do whatever it takes to get you back to the state of being that was enjoyable and is Fan Fic as you know it.
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TKeira_Lea
Registered:
Oct '02
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Date Posted:
6/24/05 3:48pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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I just wanted to mention that after tonight I will be taking a short trip. My internet time will be limited. I expect to be back to a regular schedule by Monday.
-----signature-----
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DarthSapient
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/25/05 12:52pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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Alright, enjoy the trip. See you upon your return.
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Mistress_Renata
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/27/05 5:18pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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Speaking of going away & returning... I'm back, 4 lbs. heavier and trying to catch up.
At least the boards are still here! 
-----signature-----
"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the Guardians of peace and justice
in the Old Republic. Before the dark times."
Denizen of the Crotchety Old Mods' Home... approach with caution...
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Healer_Leona
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/27/05 8:14pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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Welcome back Renata, I hear you met up with another of our numbers during your trip! How fun!!
-----signature-----
I want to swim away but don't know how
Sometimes it feels just like I'm falling in the ocean
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CodeName_Targeter
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/28/05 5:32pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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I'm back as well and still trying to catch up with everything.... 3 days later.
-----signature-----
XWFC: Wraith Leader and Senator - Starfighter Draft Winner
Ravenclaw ftw!
Doppleganger of Suzuki_Akira and Vod'ika to Valin_Halcyon
Dragged back to the forums for the SFD by Jello. Look out!
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ophelia
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/28/05 5:42pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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Targeter! What are you doing dressed as Leona? I was most grievously confused for a moment. Are you now Targeteré, decoy for the actual mod? 
-----signature-----
Oh, but anyway, Toto, we're home!
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Healer_Leona
Registered:
Jul '00
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Date Posted:
6/28/05 5:53pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
- Date Edited:
6/28/05 5:54pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Healer_Leona
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And I was going to comment on what lovely colors! Green goes with everything! 
-----signature-----
I want to swim away but don't know how
Sometimes it feels just like I'm falling in the ocean
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CodeName_Targeter
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/29/05 4:00pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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Yes, I'm now Targeteré, the decoy mod.
-----signature-----
XWFC: Wraith Leader and Senator - Starfighter Draft Winner
Ravenclaw ftw!
Doppleganger of Suzuki_Akira and Vod'ika to Valin_Halcyon
Dragged back to the forums for the SFD by Jello. Look out!
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Mistress_Renata
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
6/29/05 4:28pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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I have to officially comment that I feel a bit distressed that the Socialization thread was locked down so abruptly. Particularly considering I didn't even have a chance to log in to see the responses to my query before the "call for votes" had ended and the thread was locked. Please, LadyP, do not assume that every one stays up until midnight Pacific time. The fact that there were other people who weren't part of the FG who wanted a poll suggests that the issue was NOT resolved, no matter how many supportive PMs some individuals received.
-----signature-----
"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the Guardians of peace and justice
in the Old Republic. Before the dark times."
Denizen of the Crotchety Old Mods' Home... approach with caution...
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DarthBreezy
Title: Retired Mos Everett Cantina Founder & JMPR
Registered:
Jun '02
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Date Posted:
6/29/05 4:38pm
Subject:
RE: Welcome Thread - Please Sign In
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What is the point of beating that dead horse? Seriously, the Socialization issue looks pretty cleared up with the application of
*common sense*. Must we continue to hash and rehash every nit picky thing? The idea is to  MOOOO-ve on .
-----signature-----
Although the singer is silent, There is still the truth of the song. http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28747916/p1/ Sailing little Boats - with GoldenJedi Anywhere is possible.
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