| Author |
Topic:
Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
|
LadyPadme
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Sep '02
|
Date Posted:
6/6/05 6:02pm
Subject:
Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
- Date Edited:
7/7/05 6:55pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
LadyPadme
|
To start off the focus group discussion, as I mentioned in the Welcome Thread, I'd like to begin with directed discussion. The format that I'm posting is as follows:
1) Invited Users - Please make a one post statement with the following:
- Why you agreed to participate in this focus group
- Issues that you feel need to be addressed within Fan Fiction
- If possible: how you'd like to see these issues resolved and/or solutions that you might suggest.
- Because this is a one-post thread, I'm going to ask that you each think carefully on all the issues that concern you and state them clearly. That being said, don't panic if someone else later on introduces a topic that you neglected to mention, or which you really, really want to address. There will be plenty of time to return to every issue later on.
I'm going to leave the thread open for three days to allow these statements to be posted - until Thursday, June 9 at 6:00PM board time at which time I'm going to ask the moderators to step up to the plate.
2) Moderators - Fanfic moderators - please also make a one post statement addressing issues posted by the users focusing on explanations, suggestions and proposed solutions.
- For non Fanfic moderators - please also make a one post statement addressing issues where you feel you might have suggestions or solutions, and if possible, for any issues where similar problems might have cropped up on your own board, we would welcome hearing about them and how they were handled in your forum.
For this second portion, I'm going to ask the moderators weigh in between Thursday, June 9 at 6:00PM until Monday, June 13 at 6:00PM board time. At that point, I would like to ask:
3) Administrators - to please review the issues presented, the moderators' responses and to please give their own insights on these issues. I'd like to leave the board open for this until Thursday, June 16 at 6:00PM.
My hope is that by this time, several issues will have been addressed, hopefully to the satisfaction of the participants. If however, there are issues that users feel were not adequately addressed by that point or need further explanation, I would then ask that at that time, they return to this thread to post the issues that concern them in the following format:
- Issue #1 - reason it requires further discussion.
- Issue #2 - etc.
- This last part is ONLY to list areas you feel require further examination among the focus group. This is NOT for commenting on what others have stated earlier in the thread.
I'll keep this thread open until Monday June 20 at 6:00PM board time, at which time, we can open up individual threads for the topics that still require discussion, and free-form discussion can ensue.
I realize this might be a very rigid structure for posting. However, my reasons for doing this are (1) to get the issues out on the table in a clear and concise manner so that all participants (esp. the admins and outside mods) as well as all members of the fanfic community reading can have a good idea of what issues are being addressed. (2) I want to try to see if we can come up with reasonable explanations and solutions at this first stage without having threads degenerate into lengthy arguments, and to give people who might, perhaps be intimidated by the thought of getting 'shouted down' so to speak a chance to post their thoughts without fearing they'll be stomped on by a half dozen people five minutes after they've posted. If there are issues that remain as sticking points by the time this thread runs its course, then by all means I believe that those issues should be examined in much more depth and detail.
So, to reiterate the schedule:
1) Now until Thursday, June 9 - invited users post their issues
2) June 9 - June 13 - Moderators post their responses.
3) June 13 - June 16 - Administrators post their responses.
4) June 16 - June 20 - Users can raise issues that need further examination.
5) June 20 - Individual threads for discussion opened - everyone invited to come in and speak as much as they want.
Very important: If for some reason you are unable to post your comments at the times I've allotted, PLEASE PM me and I'll try to see what I can do to accomodate you. I would like to give everyone a chance to speak up on behalf of the boards.
- Also, if you have any questions regarding the guidelines I've outlined, please post them in the Welcome thread and keep this one solely for the purposes of delineating the issues relevant to the boards.
EDIT: Regarding issues that are raised: Please keep the issues raised relevant to issues with moderated activities and how the Fan Fiction Forums are run. Issues such as socialization, torture, the interspecies debate etc. can be brought up to illustrate other points, but the actual discussion of those issues are not in the purview of this focus group discussion and should be left for the first focus group to finish discussing.
Also, for fan fiction users - please note there is a 90 minute editing time on this board.
-----signature-----
Crest MD Naimé Evil Twin of Gabri_Jade  When a baby smiles the world is happy  In Name Only http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/18395678 Battlestar Galactica rocks! http://boomergirl.proboards102.com/index.cgi - For Sharon/Helo lovers
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
DarthBreezy
Title: Retired Mos Everett Cantina Founder & JMPR
Registered:
Jun '02
|
Date Posted:
6/6/05 6:37pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
|
Ok! Here we go! 
- Why you agreed to participate in this focus group
1) I'm really ****** in the head 2) I wanted pretty colours or 3) I have issues with the way things have been over the last few months and want to help correct them.
- Issues that you feel need to be addressed within Fan Fiction
First off, we MUSt acknowlege and thank both LadyPadme & Healer Leona for the strides and efforts they have made. My personal primary concerns have been the 'lack of mod presence' and 'sociabilty' of the mod team, and both LP & HL have really gone out of their way to take even the harshly phrased critisisms and make efforts to improve relations with the users. The only problem is, it tends to lay the burden of 4 on the only 2 who seem to be making an effort. 
I still believe, especially with the influx of new users, that considering we have 5 boards, we are and have been severely understaffed.
- If possible: how you'd like to see these issues resolved and/or solutions that you might suggest.
 I believe the other two current mods need to reconsider whether they have the time, energy and interest to continue in thier positions, as well as adding at least two more mods to make a total of six working moderators.
I'm sure others will have a whole lot more to say but that's my 'opening statement'. 
-----signature-----
Although the singer is silent, There is still the truth of the song. http://boards.theforce.net/beyond_the_saga/b10477/28747916/p1/ Sailing little Boats - with GoldenJedi Anywhere is possible.
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
obi_ew
Registered:
Apr '02
|
Date Posted:
6/6/05 7:24pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
|
Why you agreed to participate in this focus group
I agreed to be a part of this group because these boards have always been my retreat from Darth Real Life. I come here to relax, enjoy good conversation with creative people, write and post stories about characters I love and enjoy excellent fiction for free. More and more over the last several months, this retreat has begun to feel oppressive, as if creativity is being stifled. It’s to the point where I and others are afraid to say anything for fear of being admonished as if we’re children. It’s my hope that I can help in some way to make things more enjoyable and tolerable for everyone.
Issues that you feel need to be addressed within Fan Fiction
- If possible: how you'd like to see these issues resolved and/or solutions that you might suggest.
Perhaps the most important issue to me is that of socialization and the modding of it, especially in reference to the Resource boards. There need to be clear cut guidelines or rules for what is and isn’t acceptable in a thread, rather than a mod popping in from out of no where and laying down never before stated rules.
The board description is as follows: Fan Fiction Resource- A forum for both writers and readers to socialize and find out more about their community as well as to seek assistance about the various aspects of writing and reading of Star Wars Fan Fiction.
If the function of these boards includes socializing, why then are we told to take it elsewhere? I would like to see this issue addressed and a possible solution reached that benefits everyone.
The other issue I see as needing to be addressed is, what at this time appears to be, a decided lack of concern by at least two mods for the users on these boards. Leona and Lady Padme have listened to the complaints brought up and have gone out of their way to try and comply with the requests. The other two mods have left many with the perception that they are unapproachable, or just don’t have the time or motivation to care how their words and actions appear to users. I’m not sure how this can be resolved unless the two in question can be more open and willing to engage in honest discourse.
-----signature-----
In Loving Memory Of CC  Price of Courage- Obi/Whie/Luke- http://boards.theforce.net/The_Saga/b10476/20124958/?37 Updated 4/20 Finally!!
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
CodeName_Targeter
Registered:
Nov '03
|
Date Posted:
6/8/05 6:04am
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
|
- Why you agreed to participate in this focus group
I wanted to have more than just the thoughts of the Rebels and the mods voiced in this group.
- Issues that you feel need to be addressed within Fan Fiction
- If possible: how you'd like to see these issues resolved and/or solutions that you might suggest.
Some of my problems with Fan Fiction have already been taken care of, such as the Interspecies rule and the mod participation have already been fixed. One of my other problems had been socialization, but lately, the rule on that seems to have been relaxed so I'm fine with that now. What I do have a problem with is how users and mods seem to interact lately. The largest issue I see with the boards right now is the fact that there's been a big huge rip in the fabric that makes up the FanFic community and it started because of this "Mod War." I, among with others, have friends on both sides and it's really hard when you're firmly on one side and many of your friends are on the other. I come to the fanfiction boards to relax, write, and to have fun with some of my friends, not to get involved in the drama that always pops up around here. Also, I have a problem with the way two mods are being attacked for not posting when they obviously are "under attack" by users. Honestly, if I were one of those mods, I wouldn't feel like posting either, especially when almost everything you say or do can be turned against you. I probably have more issues that I feel need to be addressed, but I can't think of them right now.
-----signature-----
XWFC: Wraith Leader and Senator - Starfighter Draft Winner
Ravenclaw ftw!
Doppleganger of Suzuki_Akira and Vod'ika to Valin_Halcyon
Dragged back to the forums for the SFD by Jello. Look out!
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Mistress_Renata
Title:
Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Sep '00
|
Date Posted:
6/8/05 5:56pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
|
I can't add much, since Targeter said a lot of what I wanted to say. First of all, I'm no longer a mod, so I'm posting from the user end. Why am I here? Well, I've been very distressed, over the last few months, at the attacks on the current mods. While some issues may be relevant, there is a lot of really vindictive, negative feeling, to the point where I as a user don't really want to come around, and I can't imagine why anyone would accept the job as moderator. And I've done the job; I know what it's like being on the other end of the rotten tomatoes.
Reading some of the threads in WR, it seems to me that there is one major issue, and if it can be resolved, there might be a chance for things to settle down:
What is the role the mods are expected to play?
Socialization, interspecies relationships, etc. etc. all comes down to the above.
There needs to be a consensus, between readers and mods: what are mods supposed to do? What do users expect vs. what is the mods' understanding of their own role? What is REASONABLE to ask of them? Keeping in mind, of course, that modship is a voluntary, unpaid service on top of obligations to real-life job/family/household chores. When I became a mod, I thought it was pretty hands off, since at that time the boards were much more self-policing than they are, and that I'd be able to read/write as before, while catching an occasioanl troll. Instead, I was spending 6 hours a night online, after finishing an 8 hour day at work, and 99% of that time was doing the Mod job. I barely had time to write & post.
There needs to be a happy medium. Mods are chosen because of their participation as users. If they don't have time or opportunity to continue in that role, then there is something wrong.
I also think that the lines of communication have broken down, between mods & users and among the mods themselves. I mean, it's happened in the past that one mod has made one statement that the other mods disagreed with. But communication between the mods was improved, they sorted it out via PM, or the thread in MS, or via IM. So that at least when they discussed rules, they were presenting something that they had all come to an understanding on. And when someone had to respond quickly, when the others weren't around, they posted a notification to everyone else to let them know what the issue was & the stance that had been taken. It seems like something is going wrong there.
So.
Consensus and Communication. To me, if we can sort that out, everything else will fall into place.
-----signature-----
"For over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the Guardians of peace and justice
in the Old Republic. Before the dark times."
Denizen of the Crotchety Old Mods' Home... approach with caution...
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
ophelia
Registered:
Jun '02
|
Date Posted:
6/8/05 7:30pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
|
- Why you agreed to participate in this focus group
I really want to see improved communication on the fanfic boards, and a return to the time when all of this was just our hobby, and something that made us happy.
- Issues that you feel need to be addressed within Fan Fiction
I think there are really two of them, and I’d identify the same two Renata did: communication and the role of the moderators.
I think over time we’ve seen “mod duty creep,” in which more and more things have been handed over to the mods for regulation. When people say that mods *must* be deeply involved in the community’s social life, the unspoken corollary is that the community *can’t* run its social life without the mods. Responsibility and control are two sides of the same coin. To the extent that a mod is responsible for something, he or she is in control of it. Or, to put it another way, if you don’t want your mods to be heavyhanded, do not give them a ton of extra responsibilities, many of which involve very subjective, gray-area decisions.
I would like to see a rolling back of mod duty creep. The mods’ classic jobs are to enforce the TOS, keep out spam and trolls, provide information about mod and admin decisions, and act as “next level up” mediators when users can’t solve problems among themselves. Things aren’t different on “themed boards” like fanfiction—it’s just that the definitions of “spam” and “troll” change. On most boards, the rest of the community’s functions are the responsibility of the users—that is to say, they are under the control of the users.
This isn’t to say that mods can’t do more, or shouldn’t be encouraged to do more, just as users should be encouraged to do more than simply not violate the TOS, which is their minimum “job requirement.” Everybody can always be more proactive in making the community a more fun, more open, and more helpful place. I just think it’s a bad idea to make these sorts of duties a must for mods, especially when they remain optional for users. This is because every “must” is purchased at the price of a “can’t.” If you *must* do this, then at best, I *can’t* get it done without you, and at worst, I *can’t* do it at all.
As for communication—-that started breaking down some time ago. It’s been a vicious cycle of loss of trust, withdrawing from communication, loss of more trust over the withdrawal, then more withdrawing because of the loss of trust, etc. Now the anger level is so high and the trust level is so low that people are going to have to be willing to take some serious risks in order to be able to communicate at all. It will involve being open and vulnerable in front of “those people”—think Luke throwing away his lightsaber in front of the Emperor. I’d like to believe that everyone here is willing to make the leap of faith required to take such risks, although some people have experienced so much pain that I would understand if they felt they couldn’t. I wouldn’t look down on anyone for deciding that they weren’t ready for this, and needed to back out. In fact, I would rather that people who weren’t ready *did* back out, since we can only move forward if we all feel able to make that first, dangerous gesture of trust.
-----signature-----
Oh, but anyway, Toto, we're home!
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
red_rose_knight
Registered:
Sep '01
|
Date Posted:
6/9/05 11:50am
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
|
Why I agreed to participate in this focus group—
The fan fiction boards have been for quite some time one of my favorite places to escape and have fun. Of late, the turmoil has been rather harsh to the fragile creative muse. I hope that we can find some answers and understanding.
What I feel that needs to be addressed and potential solutions—
Communication.
Moderator/user communication and relations need to be improved. Many of the specific issues that have and will be brought up stem from misunderstanding or lack of explanation. When the moderators are more open and more willing to engage users in a dialogue, it helps the users understand where the moderators stand on issues, and consequently where the users stand.
There are various opinions on the moderator's role (from participation to accountability). What are the expectations of the moderators from both the moderators and the users? It also needs to be laid out in a manner that everyone is clear on.
I also would suggest that the mission of Fan Fiction Resource be evaluated since there seems to be a broad interpretation of its purpose and function. This not only affects socialization but other types of threads (non-writing specific question/discussions) and what should be allowed beyond strictly writing help and discussion.
We have been stagnating on the same issues for months now from moderator participation and accountability to socialization (and interspecies but that is finally starting to clear up) and the only way we are going to get past them is to have issues acknowledge and addressed. We need an open dialogue between all four of the fan fiction moderators and the community, until then we cannot move forward.
-----signature-----
The beautiful part of writing is that you don't have to get it right the first time, unlike, say, a brain surgeon.
– Robert Cromier
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
Thrawn McEwok
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
May '00
|
Date Posted:
6/9/05 2:09pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
- Date Edited:
6/9/05 2:10pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Thrawn McEwok
|
[Finalized version of my statement - thanks for the input, guys!  ]
1.) Why did I agreed to participate in this focus group?
I bear a share of responsibility for starting the protest that became the "Rebel Alliance", and I've been persuaded by various people that I can serve as an intermediary to lens and communicate the breadth of user POVs represented within that group.
2.) What issues do I feel need to be addressed within Fan Fiction?
There have been a number of specific problems on the boards over the past year or so. Some of these seem to have been more or less solved - for instance, the Interspecies rule, or the criticisms raised of LadyPadme and HealerLeona; but other issues (most notably the socialization guidelines) are still outstanding, and all of them reduce down to a single basic issue: Mod behaviour.
For whatever reason, DantanaSkywalker and to a lesser extent HermanSnerd have taken actions that have confused, offended or angered other users, and they've then compounded the resulting discontent by refusing to respond to requests for explanation or clarification.
At the bottom of this post, you’ll find a series of case-studies analysing specific situations where things have gone wrong, each time making the overall problem worse. Every time, ill-judged modding can be identified at the heart of the problem.
Now everyone makes mistakes, errors of judgment or heat-of-the-moment decisions. That's basically why we have Mods in the first place. I'm sure that there have been times when I've been angry or rude as well, or when my remarks have been misread along those lines, and I'm sure that those moments have contributed to whatever's preventing Dana from interacting effectively with the 'fic community.
But ultimately, we have to find ways to communicate and to move beyond our mistakes; I've always believed that, and always held the door open for discussion when I've felt there's a breakdown in communication - and that's another reason why I'm here now.
I know there's no perfect solution, but I do believe passionately that we can find a solution that will be acceptable to everyone, and that the best way to do that is by discussion, and by acknowledging - but not condemning - our faults, and our shared humanity.
3.) How would I like to see these issues resolved?
I think that part of the purpose of this focusgroup is to find that out. It's possible that we will all realise when we sit down and talk that we've been afraid of ghosts and we can get along - as fans, if not as friends.
However, that will require a willingness to talk - to communicate and explain - and, as the examples quoted below should show, that's one of the key things that the "Rebels" feel is lacking from those they have issues with. Perhaps they think the same about us: either way, we should be able to find out now.
Beyond that, I think it might be a good idea to think about public mechanisms for providing formal feedback when people are confused with or concerned by a Mod's behaviour.
At present, Mods and Admins can simply soak up users' questions like a j-cloth, without supplying feedback or even acknowledgment - and that creates a sense, right or wrong, that the JC hierarchy protects its own. Surely we need to remove that perception, because all it leads to is discontent!
-TmcE
CASE STUDIES
1.) The Fan Fic Awards Thread
DantanaSkywalker obviously invests a lot of emotion in her 'fic, and cares a lot about 'fic in general. In 2003, before she became a Mod, she posted a heartfelt opinion piece after the Awards.
In October 2004, by which time Dana had become a Mod, a discussion thread was started regarding the rules to be used in the Winter 2004-05 Fan Fiction Awards. On 29th October (first post on page), Dana made these remarks, here copied in full:
I'm not going to use my sock for this, because I want this to be me that says it.
This bickering and push for "I want more awards!" is EXACTLY the reason we're considering making it so that stories that have already won are ineligible in future.
How incredibly selfish it is for you who HAVE ALREADY WON to say, "But I wanna win more! You're being mean!"
Yes, you want to win more. I understand that. But YOU HAVE ALREADY WON. What more is it going to get you? NOTHING! It shows incredible arrogance to say that you deserve it more than someone else because you've won already.
I have never won ANYTHING in the two and a half years I've been posting here. I've seen many of you sweep the awards, then get angry when someone suggests that you step back and let someone else have a chance. How does that make you deserving?
I don't want you to think I'm flaming you, I'm not. I'm attempting to explain what it looks like to an observer.
If the choice is made to make winning stories ineligible, you're just going to have to live with it. We've weighed the choices. We've discussed the Sith out of it. As I said in one discussion, it's like allowing LOTR to win all over again just because they put out the extended editions. That's not fair to the other fabulous movies that are out there.
Why should we allow that in fanfiction?
So what if someone doesn't have a huge fanbase? Someone can still nominate them, and someone can still vote for them. They should get the chance.
And keep in mind that for your story to become ineligible, you have to have already won for it. You've already got recognition for your writing of it. Try something new.
We're not talking about disqualifying authors if their story has won, just that story, all right? The only category you can't go back up for as an author is "Best Author", because it's not fair to the several thousand people who post in Fanfic to have one person win year after year just because they're "popular".
Just to let you know, we've considered cutting the awards to one a year, so we only have to put up with the strain and the bickering once a year.
This was followed on 1st November (fourth post from foot of page) by a post that concluded thus:
Lastly, I'd like to apologise to anyone who felt offended at my post (you guys know which one). I am not the type to let things slide. I saw some disagreeable behaviour, and I stepped in. Some of the attitudes in the discussion WERE selfish and arrogant, and what I was responding to was the "Yeah, so?" attitude of some involved. I'm not going to name names here. I was never addressing an individual, merely the attitude present.
Like I've said, it's nice to win, but not being able to isn't the end-all of the universe. After all, these are just for fun. And nothing makes you more deserving of a win over another person. Absolutely nothing. Not quantity of posts, not quantity of wins. This is not jealousy, it is a statement of fact. Now this second post is certainly presented as an apology for the first, but let's look at it more closely.
Dana renews her condemnation of 'disagreeable behaviour' and 'selfish and arrogant attitudes'; she insists that she was within her rights to have 'stepped in', as though she had been slapping down TOS-violating behaviour in her official role as a Mod; and she claims that her action was further mitigated because her initial post was addressed to 'attitudes' rather than 'an individual'.
In fact, the original post was clearly directed at a group of individuals - those opposing a change in the voting rules for the Awards, who she addresses in the text as "you who HAVE ALREADY WON". She calls them 'incredibly selfish' and says they show 'incredible arrogance'. These points aren't concerned with style or tone, but simply with their opinion - in short, they're because they're on the opposite side to her in a discussion.
In the second post, she does not retract the claim that these opinions were 'selfish and arrogant' - in fact, she reiterates it. Qualifying her apology, she instead suggest that people were 'offended' because they didn't understand that her post was only aimed at their 'attitudes', and not at 'an individual'.
Quite apart from the fact that this claim suggests that the problem stemmed from their reading and reaction, not her action or mode of expression, the fact remains these 'attitudes' are intimately linked to a certain group of people - those she personally disagrees with in the discussion.
If the first of these posts can be explained by strong personal passion, it is nevertheless worrying that someone who had then been a Mod for half a year was so close to the issues in the thread that she saw it as appropriate commentary at all. And if indeed the second post was intended as a genuine apology, it is very unfortunately phrased. At best, Dana was too passionate about an issue, and phrased her apology very badly. At worst, she genuinely believed that she could use her Mod status to flame and silence those she disagreed with, and was hypocritical in her 'apology'.
So, the question is: what is Dana's retrospective view on these issues? What does she think went wrong, and what would she say she's learned from the incident?
I should note that I've already asked her for her opinion on this issue here, in reply to her request for questions here; her lack of any answer may be due to her being busy in real life, but I think it's important that she does comment on these issues, inasmuch as they are the foundation for a widespread distrust of her among sections of the Fan Fic community, and her silence only compounds the problem.
More on that in Section 3 below, though...
***
2.) Interspecies Discussion
No, this is not an attempt to rehash the debate on the guidelines themselves. Nor can I claim that my own actions in this discussion were perfect. However, I think that a study of the relevant threads highlights four technical failings in Dana’s modding, failings which compounded rather than corrected any problems that other users may have been responsible for, resulting in a now-notorious and rather farcical situation. These four failings were:
a.) Repeated inconsistencies in the guidelines she offered.
b.) Apparently unilateral departure from the consensus established by other Mods in an earlier discussion.
c.) A failure to explain the reason for the new guidelines.
d.) A fundamental lack of engagement with the users in discussion - her contribution was essentially limited to offering apparently unilateral guidelines (flawed as I would contend they were by factors (a.), (b.) and (c.)), and at one point, she implied that users could have no voice in shaping the guidelines.
I'm sorry that this is such a long section, but the issue is complex, and a lot of it is concerned with highlighting the inconsistencies between her consecutive statements.
The question of Interspecies relationships was first raised in the Forum Content Standards Discussion in December 2002. The relevant discussion on page 10 and page 11 of that thread reached no explicit conclusion, but there seemed to be a broad consensus that the movies and EU set the tone to be expected.
An explicit Interspecies guideline was finally developed in June 2003 in a discussion thread led by then Moderators Kit’ and AmidalaSkywalker and involving a spectrum of interested users.
While noting that the site owners reserved the right to change the policy, Ams and Kit’ had laid down two basic guidelines: firstly,
the SW books have had cross-species dating, and such pairings mentioned there are allowed More generally, relationships were allowed between humans and humanoids, defined as follows:
"A humanoid: A creature bearing significant resembelance to a human" You can do with that what you will. From the context, it seemed clear that such pairings mentioned in the books meant species-pairings (eg human/Selonian, human/Bothan) rather than simply individual couples.
This guideline was not publicly altered, and thus might have been presumed to remain implicitly in force, when Dana became involved, on 2nd September 2004, in discussion in a ‘fic thread. In response to some banter, she delurked and posted that:
The books may allow human/Bothan pairings and the like; however, policy here is that Bothans, Gungans, and Wookiees are not "humanoid" enough. Twi'leks, Chiss, and other near-humans, however, are. When further questions were asked, she unlocked the old Interspecies discussion thread, partially "so we can figure out what, exactly, "humanoid" means", and supplied a guideline (fourth post on page), dealing with humans, humanoids, hominid nonuhumanoids, and robots.
This made no direct reference to the guidelines arrived at earlier in the same thread, but after including Bothans and Selonians in a list of nonhumanoid species ‘not allowed’ with humans, she wrote:
Canon relationships are also in question. As it stands, I would say that if it is a relationship that is in the books themselves, then it is allowed on these boards, as long as it is held to the standards of these boards, i.e. PG and tasteful. This seems not to have been remarked on much at the time. In retrospect, however, it can be noted that the explicit banning of ’ships like human/Selonian and human/Bothan seems to contrast both with the previous discussion in the same thread, and the explicit allowal of relationships ‘in the books’ in her own post. This was particularly confusing, because among the specific questions asked was to what extent ’fic was allowed to cover a specific human/Bothan relationship ‘in the books’, between Rebel pilots Gavin Darklighter and Asyr Sei’lar.
Then there's the question of where this ruling comes from. I've been told retrospectively by Dana and others that it was based on input from one or both of the site owners, but Dana’s post doesn’t say anything at all about this, nor does it refer to the older guideline established earlier in the same thread. Instead, the only suggestion of an origin for the new guideline (or any component part of it) is the opening phrase:
Red_rose_knight and I discussed this a bit…. Rereading the post in hindsight, it’s possible to see that these words could have been intended to refer to a specific issue rather than the guideline as a whole (I have discussed this briefly with RRK myself, but I’d rather let her speak for herself to avoid any misrepresentation or confusion). However, if Dana’s remark isn’t supposed to cover the whole guideline, that isn't made in any way clear, nor is any other source for any part of the guideline offered.
Nevertheless, these questions and confusions aside, those involved in the nascent discussion seem to have broadly accepted this post as establishing the JC rule on the matter (apart from anything else, I don’t think any of those involved seem to have realised that there had been any different guideline earlier). While some of us might have felt unsure about what the status of a ’ship like Gavin/Asyr was, we were happy to work within the rules as laid down by the Mods.
To this end, the Interspecies ‘Ship Challenge was set up by me on 15th October, under the byline: “it's not about TOS-violation, it's about finding the bleeding edge of acceptability, and doing a funky sword-dance on it....”. In response to questions from Elena and SpeldoriontheBlended, Dana – with whom, as I recall, we were all still on amicable terms – soon posted:
I realise that there have been human/Selonian and human/bothan pairings in the books, but they are not allowed here, UNLESS they are specifically the relationships from the books. This is clearer than her previous statement: while forbidding general species-pairings, it still legitimizes the specific Corran/Chertyl and Gavin/Asyr pairings from the books. At the time, this too seems to have been accepted; the contrast with the previous rule was not noticed.
On 27th October, I started the Make Love, Not Babies resource thread as a spinoff from the Challenge. In this thread, Dana posted:
I realise that there are human/alien relationships in the X-Wing books that include pairings from the forbidden list (and then there's Raynar/Lusa). At this point, you can reference them, but I'm not sure if you can portray them. From allowing specific relationships ten days earlier, her guideline has changed to allow only references to those relationships.
Dana later elaborated:
there are some relationships in the books that would not be allowed here on these boards. The primary reason Wookiees and Bothans are not allowed is because they are too close to bestiality, no matter how sentient they are. By this time, some users were starting to feel confused, and to register a sense of unease with the guideline – was there really so little difference between, say, Jaina/Lowie and Jaina/vornskr? In a Space Fantasy setting, wasn't something like human/Bothan supposed to be read as analogous to a real-world interracial relationship? On 1st November attention was drawn in the thread to the previous guideline, and the contrast. Dana was asked to clarify if she had indeed changed the guidelines.
In a thread that was still basically amicable, she replied, without directly answering that question:
The canon relationships are a bit sticky. I am not averse to protraying any relationship we saw in the books (which means Corran/Selonian is out; Gavin/Asyr would be in), as long as they were within the other guidelines of these boards.
However, and I know this is going to sound discriminatory, other pairings of these types, I would think are not allowed. We are held to a different standard on these boards than the books are.
However, I'm not the only voice here, and the other mods also have a voice in the issue, so it's also up to them. Now, bizarrely, Gavin/Asyr can be “portrayed” again, but Corran/Chertyl is out, because it was off-camera in the novel, even though it was explicitly discussed by characters, and it had been specifically allowed by Dana (as the ‘human/Selonian… pairing… in the books’) in her post of 16th October, two weeks earlier.
Of equal importance here is the implication that the guidelines are still at least partially open for discussion, and the insight into their origins. Dana seems to say that this is her voice speaking, not that of the site owners. She also implies that the only 'voices' that carry weight are those of the Mods, not the ordinary users – in contrast to the consultation with the users when Amsie and Kit’ worked out the earlier guideline.
On 19th November, I asked for clarification on the status of human/Wookie relationships, brought up instances from the draft scripts of the movies (in which the minor character who became Aunt Beru was originally a Wookie) and the Holiday Special (which has bizarre G-rated Wookie/Omwat ‘fantasy’ in which Chewie’s dad’s dream woman is Diahann Carrol in a Qwi Xux wig).
On 21st November, Dana wrote a post, apparently (though not explicitly) in reply to this, in which she obliquely invoked the site owners for the first time:
George [Lucas] isn't running this website. Phil [Wise] and Josh [Griffin] are. They've put forth different rules, and it's their rules, not George's, that we abide by. This statement has to my knowledge never been clarified or expanded on. It is unclear exactly what these ‘different rules’ are, and what they entail; it’s also unclear whether these unspecified rules were communicated to Dana specifically by direct contact, or whether she was interpreting other guidelines - for instance interpreting the “PG and family-friendly” rule. If there was direct contact with the site owners, it’s not clear when this took place – Dana’s posts of 2nd September and 1st November quoted above offer no indication of any input above Fan Fic Mod level.
Then, on 25th November, I posted a Thanksgiving songfic entitled This Minute Now, set to the Wookiee/Omwat theme from the Holiday Special, and featuring Jaina Solo and Lowbacca the Wookiee as platonic friends sharing a slow dance at a party.
While I had been threatening to post a ‘Jaina/Lowie’ story for some time, and Dana had asked me to send any such story to her for vetting, I had deliberately written this as a non-romance ’fic, and I also wanted to post it on Thanksgiving (the anniversary of the Holiday Special I was spoofing); nevertheless, simultaneous with posting the ’fic, I sent a copy to Dana in case there was anything in it that she felt violated the rules.
Dana subsequently locked and deleted the ’fic for “violating the interspecies rule”.
I admit that my actions here were less than perfect. For the record, I wanted to post on Thanksgiving, which meant before I went to bed (early evening US time), and I didn’t think I that Dana was going to look it over in time if I ran it by her first; however, as the 'fic had been deliberately written to sit within the rules she had laid down, I saw no insurmountable problem in posting it without her prior input.
However, I should stress that I didn’t (and don’t) have any issue with her deleting the ’fic if there was a valid reason. The subsequent trouble came because I never received any clarification on exactly where the violation lay, or what might be done to the ’fic to make it acceptable. Various reasons were hinted at, but my repeated attempts to discuss it with her were rebuffed or ignored.
Dana’s final word on the matter, in the post with which she locked the thread (bottom of the page), was:
you cannot possibly know what I was objecting to with that story, so kindly do not interpret for me. On 5th January, she finally locked the old discussion thread. In her final post she wrote:
No, human/bothan isn't allowed. Unless you're referencing Gavin/Asyr. Referencing only. That also goes for Raynar/Lusa. Other than that, you can't show it. And so, the guideline swung back from ‘portraying’ to ‘referencing’ again…
More recently, Dana has claimed that:
the interspecies rule was not decided by me But she has offered no further elaboration in support of this statement.
Perhaps I’m not the best person to speak on the Interspecies discussion, as the ‘Imperial Mini-Wookiee’ who was one of those most closely involved in the discussion itself, and I cannot say that my own conduct was perfect. However, I should stress that I always remained willing – even eager – to work with Dana to understand what the guidelines were, and it should be evident from the threads linked to above that I was not the only person puzzled by her responses.
In retrospect, analysis of the threads shows that Dana’s comments were inconsistent in their guideline content, and failed to give any clear account of where this guideline content came from. This led to confusion amongst the users, compounded by Dana’s continuing failure to be consistent or clear in responding to users’ questions. Rather than entering into discussions or explaining the reasons for what she was saying, she made repeated (but inconsistent) statements of guidelines, statements which failed to address the key issues that users were confused or troubled by.
Thus, out of a relatively innocuous discussion, a farcical and unpleasant situation arose, one that I believe would have been entirely averted by clearer answers to specific (and often repeated) questions. It stands as how a Mod’s intervention - or rather, a certain style of modding – can compound rather than control a situation.
Perhaps predictably, my conclusion is that lucid discussion with the users is vital for effective modding, and that for whatever reason, Dana failed in this instance to provide this.
3. Recent Events
The most recent round of trouble on the Fan Fic boards, the direct catalyst for this focusgroup, began in the And There Were ’Ships… thread, which I understand that TKeira_Lea will go into in more detail.
By 5th May, existing feelings that Dana was using her status as a Mod to support her own personal agenda on discussion topics had boiled over. In spite of a short apology posted by her that evening, a number of other users were by now convinced that Dana’s actions as a Mod were skewed by her personal opinions, and they had accordingly lost confidence in her ability to continue effectively in her official role at JC. That confidence has not been restored by her subsequent actions.
This group began to organize a petition calling for Dana’s resignation. They tried to keep the discussion civil and polite, drawing a clear distinction between Dana’s actions as a Mod and her personal character and contributions as a user. Hard evidence was collected to support the claims of the petition, and emphasis was laid on the negative effect of Dana’s actions, rather than interpreting her motivations. Efforts were made to invite in a broad variety of opinion into the off-site discussion.
While the petition organizers may have been motivated by anger as well as sorrow, and perhaps appeared threatening and upsetting to Dana, every effort was made to deal with hard evidence and with specific instances where, whatever her reasons, Dana had confused or angered other users and then failed to follow up on their response.
By 10th May, the petition had been signed by about thirty JC ’fic boards users and sent to the Admins; it was about to be posted in public on the board.
At this point, Dana resigned as a Mod and announced that she was leaving the JC altogether. By the 16th, however, she was posting again, and it became increasingly apparent that she was not in fact leaving as a Mod.
In this time, a number of users, among whom her real-world friends and relatives DarthIshtar, Creshosk and Corrin_Wyndryder were initially prominent, began to post in support of her, attacking the petition project. A thread was started by head Admin DarthSapient, but he then misunderstood (or willfully misrepresented) the aims of the petition (see here and here), and personally asked Dana to rescind her resignation. While his actions may have been well-meant and seemed rational from his POV, his intervention did little to assuage the sense among petition supporters that the Admin/Mod hierarchy were looking after their own.
Over this time, for more than four weeks after the petition was established on the 5th, she made no JC posts answering the issues being raised. Her only interaction was in a series of short posts in the two days after she resigned, here, here, here and here, in which the nearest thing to a response was:
You guys want to hear from me? That's just it, I don't think you really want to hear what I have to say. Dana’s failure to respond might have been because she found the petition personally hurtful, and I personally and sincerely regret any upset I caused her (and I hope the same is true of the other organizers); but whatever her reasons, her failure to respond to criticism was already identified as a key problem – she was here merely repeating an established pattern.
Finally, at 2:37pm on 30th May, she appeared in the Where Have They Gone? thread with the request:
If you have questions to ask me, please ask them Questions were immediately forthcoming., but after a promising start, Dana dropped out of the discussion leaving many questions unanswered, apparently too busy with real life.
Since then, she has not engaged in further discussion.
It is possible that Dana had entirely valid personal reasons for acting the way she did, and it could certainly be argued that the petition group could have acted more moderately; but here again, what we see is basically a Mod failing to address users’ concerns, and trouble resulting.
The simple question raised – the question that lay at the heart of the no-confidence petition – is this: if Dana has difficulties in this sort of situation, how is she expected to function effectively as a Moderator?
As yet, no solution has been forthcoming, nor even coherent discussion towards finding a solution. I hope that this thread may provide at least a start towards a solution.
4. HermanSnerd
I suspect that obi_ew will be commenting on HermanSnerd’s behaviour with regard to socialization. I’m going to focus here instead on some posts made by him in connection with the events discussed in Section 3. Rightly or wrongly, he gave the impression that he was using his position in direct support of Dana, prohibiting those who disagree with her from expressing their opinion (however politely) on pain of banning.
The And There Were 'Ships… thread has already been referred to above in Section 3. Here, I am concerned specifically with Herman's statement here that:
Just a few words.
As everyone should know, there is a forum wide policy against baiting. Trying to lure someone into an argument is a big no-no.
So after some consultation with Leona, I'll define what will be considered baiting in this thread.
Suggesting that one relationship is 'canon' and the other is not is just asking for an argument and won't be tolerated any more.
Similarly, suggesting that fans of another 'ship just don't "understand the character" is also baiting.
So feel free to say why you like J/J fics or K/J fics. Feel free to say why you prefer one to the other.
But no more hinting that one 'ship is more "correct" than another or that the opposing viewpoint needs to prove itself.
Have a nice day.
EDIT: This is not the thread to discuss interspecies. . This was read by several users as a biased intervention in support of Dana, with all three of Herman’s main points primarily restricting the expression of opinions she disagreed with.
a.) “Suggesting that one relationship is 'canon' and the other is not is just asking for an argument and won't be tolerated any more”: this seems to proscribe the main position to which Dana was opposed - namely that there was a distinct contrast between the two relevant couplings in canon, with one being shown as a stable, clearly-defined relationship and the other as an angsty, unstable, and largely implicit attraction.
b.) “Similarly, suggesting that fans of another 'ship just don't "understand the character" is also baiting”: this seems directed at a passing comment made by TKeira_Lea – “people just don’t get Jaina”, part of a response to a far more inflammatory post by another user, here (3rd paragraph of first post on this page) trying to draw a distinction between readers’ POVs and characters’ actions.
c.) “This is not the thread to discuss interspecies”: interspecies had only been brought up because Dana’s stance based on a plurality of POVs and the idea that “I don't think it matters what one does or does not find romantic” seemed to conflict with her POV on Interspecies, where she imposed definite restrictive criteria (see Section 2).
All in all, for a post that threatens bans for baiting, it reads rather like a bait itself.
My own reply read thus:
Herman: two things.
Firstly: there is a fundamental difference between the bunk-sharing, snogging, foot-massaging relationship in the canon material between Jag and Jaina, and any possible subtext between Kyp and Jaina, whose 'relationship' up to now consists of him manipulating her into a strike on a civilian target and then her taking him on as a Master while she's throwing Force lightning around and generally raping people's minds.
Kyp and Jaina have a canon subtext. There's a difference. I'd argue that the same is true of Anakin and Mara, possibly even Jacen and Vergere... :P
Secondly: I mention the interspecies thing only insofar as it impacts on a wider pattern of behaviour, of which these 'shipper wars are part, as a result of which a Mod is increasingly in the eyes of a sizeable chunk of the community she nominally serves.
Let her defend herself. She'll be tried by the mob otherwise. Already is. This post was deleted by Herman, and I was temp-banned by another Mod. The same happened to another user, who also posted in reply. But while Herman's post in itself may not excuse any excessive feeling in the responses, and I fully understand and respect the actions of the Mod who banned me, I note that any excess in my remarks was entirely due to Herman's intervention. If he was trying to quieten down the situation, his intervention was ill-judged and entirely counterproductive.
Subsequently, he didn't help perceptions by conflating two totally different issues to justify his position - equating the attempt to discuss how certain relationships are portrayed in the EU novel 'canon' with the totally separate debate on the relative value of the novel 'canon' and the movies...
More recently, Herman began this thread by banning the airing of grievances by either side; while this seems superficially fair, it meant that all that the thread could become was a place for "Loyalists" to make happy (and faintly triumphal) noises while the "Rebels" looked on in mute cynicism. While in this case, no disturbance resulted, the sense that Herman was aligned 'politically' with Dana's supporters was intensified - and the quiescence of the opposition was itself mainly due to a sense that Herman was looking for an excuse to ban people.
I hope that these two examples serve to show how a Mod's intervention doesn't have to actively cause disturbance on the boards to be counterproductive. Even if well-intended, seemingly partisan actions can cause discontent among users, and lead to an erosion of the moral authority of the Mod in question. The lack of more overt complaints can be explained by the apparent threat of banning simply for disagreeing with an arbitrary opinion.
Conclusion
The case-studies presented above are not the only possible instances that can be cited of 'problem Modding' in the JC Fan Fiction forums; however, they do serve to show the nature of the problem quite clearly. Moderators who allow themselves to become overinvolved with particular issues lose their ability to moderate, to calm heated disagreement and reconcile opposing factions; they come to be seen as one side in an argument, distinguished from the opposition only by having more firepower.
While we are all only human, I hope that the foregoing examples show that the Fan Fiction forums have actively suffered from this style of Modding. While the actions of users are themselves inevitably imperfect, Moderators must be prepared to explain to and interact with the other users, and if they simply impose rules or give the impression - even inadvertantly - that they have lost sight of the difference between their personal POV and their public role, then a failure to correct that impression will inevitably compromise both their authority and the situation on the boards.
All this may of course seem to be a ridiculous state of affars when what is being regulated is the free-time socialization of a group of fans of a space-fantasy franchise. In truth, it is ridiculous! But Dana and Herman's behaviour has been all the more confusing and disturbing precisely because this is a place we come for fun and relaxation.
Tyranny in this context is absurdly petty.
-----signature-----
A/T = OTP  "To write one Solo twin as an angstbunny, Master Skywalker, might be considered unfortunate. To write BOTH that way looks like carelessness."
|
Locked Topic |
Active Topic Notification |
Private Message |
Post History
|
YodaKenobi
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
May '03
|
Date Posted:
6/9/05 3:59pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
- Date Edited:
6/9/05 4:02pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
YodaKenobi
|
Given the guidelines, I'm not sure whether to do this in broad strokes or great detail, so I guess I'll do my best to find some middle ground. I apologize for the length of this in advance but this is what you get when you make a focus group of aspiring writers  I ask that it be read carefully as it took many hours to compile all of this. Thanks in advance 
- Why you agreed to participate in this focus group
I agreed to participate because I was asked and I hoped that I could help return the boards that I love back to normal. I just wanted to add my view as someone who is relatively unbiased and unaffected by the majority of the problems in Fan Fiction.
- Issues that you feel need to be addressed within Fan Fiction
I think there has been an effort, rightly or wrongly, to broaden out the issues in the past few weeks, extending into a full "fan fiction moderating problem" that includes multiple mods and even issues like socialization and interspecies, etc. Well, there's already a focus group that's covering the "rules" issues and the last thing we need is redundancy. The only reason socialization and other rules should come up, in my view, is to discuss the way they've been modded.
I also don't think our problem is one that involves all the mods in Fan Fiction. I've said before, as far as I can tell LadyPadme and Healer_Leona have never been anything but model moderators, and though I might not agree with every decision, they have always seemed fair, and friendly. I don't even think this is about Herman, though I know some will disagree.
I don't think I saw Herman on the boards before this little flare-up. Whether that means he's not there or I just haven't been paying attention, I don't know, but seeing as how we don't have huge spam problems or obscenity being posted that isn't quickly locked or edited by LP, Leona, or DantanaSkywalker, if he is absent, it's not really a problem. If the other mods feel he's not pulling his weight, I'll leave it for them to complain about. I will say that I found some of Herman's post in the wake of all this to be a bit discouraging, but I suppose this is a relatively minor criticism, and probably not worth delving into.
The issue, I believe, is DantanaSkywalker and the abuses that have taken place. This is not a personal vendetta against Dana, I have never "locked horns" with her in my time on the boards and my views are that of a unbiased observer of her moderating. I don't know Dana as a person. I have seen her in her own story threads, some of which I've read and replied to and she seems very nice there.
That being said, I have been here for more than two years and have never seen a moderator behave in the way she has. The general rudeness and perhaps even the heavy-handed approach would be tolerable, but the unfairness, refusal to communicate, and blatant disregard for TOS are not.
Breaching PM Confidentiality
Most egregious of these offenses was the breach of PM confidentiality, when Dana quoted a user's private message in a public thread, using it in an argument against her. Not only that, but she apparently changed the context of the quote to make it appear that TKeira_Lea was saying something she wasn't.
In the "And There Were 'Ships" thread Dana said: "I've heard it said fairly recently that it's appalling that K/Jers find K/J romantic. I believe the direct quote was "And they think it’s romantic!"
TKL is obviously best equipped to go into detail on this, and I'd like to add, to her credit, she's never breached PM confidentiality to prove it 
No one is allowed to post the content of private messages on the boards. Everyone knows this. It's wrong for anyone; I think we can all agree it's especially bad for a moderator to do. How will the boards function if users are afraid their messages to a moderator could be broadcast to the rest of the community?
This is what a random user named Koori (whom I hope doesn't mind me using her as an example), not someone who signed the petition against Dana (which I'm sure will come up in great detail later), said when this was brought to light in the "Where Have They Gone?" Thread: "Now, I don't all the details about the pm being posted, but are we now to assume that any pm we send to a mod can be posted for all to see?"
Obviously Dana knows the rules. Many people, including most importantly the victim in this action, felt that this was used as a threat to the users.
Whether this happened is no longer in question. After a month of saying nothing, Dana finally admitted it was done and declared that she still " stood by" her "choice." I would like to note that the word "choice" was Dana's word, meaning this is something she decided to do. Not an accident.
My own opinion is that this alone is proof of conduct that is unacceptable for a moderator. If you don't agree, don't worry— there's more.
The Interspecies 'Ships Thread
I'm sure Thrawn McEwok will tackle the Interspecies debate in great detail, but again, I will add my own view of that debacle as an outsider. I would also like to note that I am not in favor of interspecies pairings, or a fan of the recent rules changes to allow it. I'm actually on the same side of the issue as Dana, but even I could see that the way it was handled was unfair.
I will also say that I believe everyone involved here should take the time to read the Make Love, Not Babies thread where most of this is discussed. It's not terribly long and you can definitely get a sense of things by running through it.
In it you'll see Dana change the rules from day to day, seemingly without reason, once even claiming that the site owners have set the rules on Interspecies 'ships. Seeing as how interspecies 'ships are now allowed, that is obviously not the case.
Perhaps what's most troubling about her participating in the discussion, is the last post in the thread, in which she locks it: "We've said what the rules are on this, and they're not going to change. No amount of "But it's stupid!" is going to change it. You know what the rules are, and if you break them, you will be punished. And yes, it's up to the moderators to decide.
That said, I think this thread has outlived its usefulness and at this point, exists only as a springboard for a reform petition that is not going to happen."
An end to discussion with threats of punishment (Make note of the word "punishment." It will come up again). What possible harm could come from continuing discussion? Again, I'm not even in favor of interspecies relationships. The idea of a human/Wookiee pairing grosses me out. But what is so dangerous about discussing it? There's no flaming going on in the thread, Dana was simply angry at McEwok and the fact that she'd been caught in contradictions and decided to lock it.
Again, I've never seen another mod behave this way.
McEwok's Fiction
Why was Dana upset with Thrawn McEwok? Obviously because he had been pushing the interspecies issue and proposed writing a Jaina/Lowbacca fic. There was some discussion and its my understanding that McEwok agreed to PM her any romantic Jaina/Lowbacca story to DantanaSkywalker before hand.
On Thanksgiving Thrawn McEwok posted a fic called This Minute Now. I'd give you a link, but the thread doesn't exist anymore. It's been entirely deleted. By DantanaSkywalker. In the story, Jaina and Lowbacca dance. 
Now, McEwok did not PM it to Dana before posting it, shame on him. I'm not going to make excuses for him, and I know he acknowledges that it wasn't the best thing to have done. However, this was not an interspecies 'ship story as he'd discussed with Dana. It's my understanding that he wrote the fic so it would pass board rules without clearance from Dantana.
Now, I understand Dana possibly initially pulling the text from McEwok's story and checking to make sure it passed the board rules. McEwok made himself a target by being so outspoken about the issue, and if I had been a mod, I probably would have gone over everything he posted to check for violations as well.
But why after reading didn't she put it back up? Or if it did violate the rules, why didn't she explain why? In the Interspecies thread she said, "And you cannot possibly know what I was objecting to with that story, so kindly do not interpret for me. And that goes along with that nice little PM you sent me."
The "you" is Thrawn McEwok. She wouldn't even tell him why the thread was locked. How is anyone supposed to know?
Now, one could say that Mods make mistakes, that they're human and should be allowed, and I completely agree. But earlier that month DarthIshtar, who is a friend of Dana's, had a fic called She Kissed My Wookiee. This title alone should have been enough to set of warning bells for those moderating during the interspecies debate, right?  The story centers around a kiss between Chewbacca and Leia and Han's subsequent reaction to finding out. This fic not only remains unlocked and unedited, but is currently archived at TFN.
How can anyone justify such an obvious double standard? An dance is a violation but a kiss is not?
Dana actually answered some of my questions on this when news of the focus group came down in the Where Have They Gone Thread. Here's what she had to say: "Ishtar's story contained references only; everything that is discussed happened in the past; also, the kiss in question was not of a romantic nature whatsoever.
As for Thrawn's story, as I explained to him at the time and which he said that he understood and would abide by, the interaction in question contained within the story was within the story, not as reference, and at that present time, it was against the rules.
Now, what possible difference could one story being told in present tense and another in past make? The kiss in DarthIshtar's story is still related through other characters, still narrated. What difference does it make if it's a character narrating it instead of the author? Again, I think any reasonable person can see that this is ridiculous.
But most troubling in Dana's reply was this: "He also ignored a request from a moderator and went ahead and knowingly violated the rules. Deleting the story was the only punishment issued at that time, and is rather mild in nature, considering what other actions could have been taken."
There you have it: according to DantanaSkywalker, deleting someone's story is a suitable punishment. I could be wrong, but the only punishment I've ever heard of mods being able to deal out were bannings. Editing out things that violate TOS is not a punishment. It's done to protect the other users of the boards and keep it "family friendly." It is not supposed to be done because someone doesn't PM you ahead of time. A PM, that was unnecessary after McEwok's changes. Again, I could see initially taking the text down to check for violations, but when they weren't there, why not put it back up? It had obviously become personal at that point, and Dana saw fit to "punish" McEwok.
This is eventually what leads to the "Interspecies 'Ships" thread being locked.
Again, I have never seen another mod do something like this. As fan fiction writers, the idea that our stories would be deleted because of petty squabbles unrelated to the content of the story is a very frightening one.
As far as I know, to this day, Dantana has yet to point out the violations she claims were in "This Minute Now."
Fan Fiction Awards
Most of you know that Dana announced she was stepping down from her position as Moderator a few weeks ago. In recent days, it was announced she would be staying at least through the Fan Fiction Awards so that she could help out with them.
I'll let the irony of that speak for itself.
The Fan Fiction Awards are easily the biggest event in our little community. They're silly, completely unserious with goofy "entertainment." They are meant to be fun, not a serious ranking of stories. The vast majority of people understand this, yet about every time there is normally one person who takes things way too seriously and launch into a rant that spoils it. It might be funny to some, but in general it is just painful to read and you end up feeling terribly embarrassed for the person.
This was Dana in the 2003 awards (Please note that DantanaSkywalker was not a mod at this time. This however, is necessary in demonstrating a pattern of behavior and to illustrate the idea that there is some sort of feud going on between people who like Kyp Durron and people who liked Jagged Fel):
"I wasn't going to come back to this thread, after I lost in everything I was nominated for (I believe there was even one category where EVERYONE NOMINATED EXCEPT ME won). I was angry, and hurt. I felt as though I had been excluded and shunned.
The reason I felt this way is because, being a Kyp/Jaina 'shipper, I get huge amounts of flack. People, especially J/Jers, read my stories and then go, "It was good, for a K/J" or "I liked it, too bad it's K/J".
I don't think you people realise how much that hurts. I don't barge into J/J threads, read the story, and then say, "That was good, too bad's it's got Jag in it." I don't do that. I may have in the past, but in those cases, it was an honest mistake because I try not to do things like that. I know how sensitive an author's writing is to them.
I love writing. I really do. But I hate it when people discriminate against me because I happen to prefer Kyp Durron over Jagged Fel. I'm shunned as a freak because of it, even though, IMHO, Jag is the interloper because Stackpole just inserted this oh-so-perfect robotic pilot into the universe and everyone instantly bows down to him. My favourite character has been shoved into the background, and granted, I'm annoyed about that.
But when I found I'd been nominated in the fanfic awards, I was thrilled. I thought, "Wow, these people are finally able to look past the K/J pairing in my stories and are finally accepting me." I felt I had been finally recognised as one of your equals.
But then I lost every single one of my nominations, after months and months of waiting. I didn't even place in ANYTHING.And not only that, Jade_Max, who was nominated for "Not Strong Enough To Say No", placed third, and it felt like a minour technicality because she's not K/J, even though her story was.
I have felt, in the aftermath of these awards, that I didn't win because of my standing on the K/J/J issue. That people ignored the quality of my work and voted against me simply because I'm for Kyp. "
Click on the link if you want to read the whole thing, it's quite long. But the basic thrust of it was that Dana's fics were better than the winners and that she didn't win because she pairs Jaina with Kyp. Fair enough.
Then, the next year some Kyp fans decide to have their own | |
