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Topic:
Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
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MariahJade2
Title: FanFic Archive Editor
Registered:
Mar '01
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Date Posted:
6/19/05 6:41pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
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I just received a communication from Herman. Thank goodness, I was getting very worried, and he asked me to let people know what's been going on. He's been unable to get on line because it seems that a lightning storm damaged his modem. He was writing to me from someone else's computer. He said that if all goes well he'll be picking up his computer tomorrow and should be back on line tomorrow night or the next day.
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Have a question or suggestion for the Archive? PM me anytime.
"You spin me right 'round baby right 'round"...
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YodaKenobi
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
6/19/05 7:11pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
- Date Edited:
6/19/05 7:13pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
YodaKenobi
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I had another long post worked up but apparently that's not what we want here, so I'll keep this as brief as possible and hope I don't make things more difficult for LadyPadme.
1. DantanaSkywalker's abuses as moderator
This is by far the most important issue that needs to be resolved. I don't know if we're going to have separate discussion for each action or if it will all be lumped into one, but I hope we get to discuss the breach of PM confidentiality and the subsequent TOS violation(s) that followed, as well as all the other points brought up by TKL, Thrawn, and myself in our original posts. These things need resolved and if Dana refuses to answer the questions, we need the other moderators and admins to. When I asked repeatedly in my post if "you had ever behaved this way," or "if this sort of behavior is acceptable for a moderator," I did not intend for that to be rhetorical. I look forward to seeing what the group has to say.
2. Moderator Accountability
This is really related to "1." I believe Dana should be held accountable for the undeniable violations that she's committed.
3. Communication
Communication is an issue that needs to be discussed, only because lack of it seems to exacerbate the existing problems. Better communication between mods and users would definitely improve things, but it's not a fix-all, and really does nothing, for instance, if our problem is a moderator who quotes a PM to an admin, deletes a story without reasonable explanation, or hurls insults at users over awards.
I will also say that the communication issue is not one that exclusively applies to Dana.
4. Issues regarding a FF Senate or additional moderators
I really don't think additional bureaucracy is the solution, but I do appreciate Raven's willingness to offer ideas  Also, I don't think the JC needs to be a democracy, regardless of what some people are alleging 
I'm unsure about adding more mods. I think 4 should be able to handle it and even with the problems in FF I don't see us overwhelmed by spam or obscenity.
I'm going to add this last part because I think it needs to be addressed. If LadyPadme thinks it makes my post too long, she is welcome to edit it out and if so, I apologize for making more work for her.
On the issue of quoting TKL's private message in a public thread, DantanaSkywalker's explanation here was "I thought, at the time I quoted it, that it was from a previous post of hers. By the time I realised it wasn't, I was too embarrassed over my mistake, and too, honestly, pissed off by the petition to apologise." and "I did not mean to breach PM confidentiality, and I do not think it's all right for a mod to do so. In my case, it was an honest mistake and one I do not intend to ever repeat..."
However, on the 30th of May DantanaSkywalker posted something that was completely different regarding her quoting of a private message: "Have you stopped to consider that the reason I even had the PM in the first place was that TKL herself sent it to me? Perhaps it was not the wisest choice, I will admit, but I still stand by it. "
Ignoring the fact that her defense of her actions was that the PM was sent to her as well, and this somehow gave her the right to quote it, we see that only 2 weeks before Dana says the incident was an accident, she said it was a "choice." How can both be true?
Keep in mind this was only 6 days before the focus group started, right after it was announced that there would be a second focus group to discuss her abuses as a moderator.
At this point, I would like to remind everyone of the "Terms of Service." The first line states: "User agrees not to post material that is knowingly false and/or defamatory, misleading, inaccurate...".
Did Dana just violate TOS to cover another rules infraction? I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt here and wait for her explanation as this is rather troubling. No one can "choose" to have an accident. By definition, it's incidental, so one of the statements is "false, misleading, and inaccurate," and she would have to know this, right?
I will allow for the possibility that someone else may have been typing the May 30th message, or even the post here at "issues." With all the account switching going on, it's possible. Perhaps it was even Corrin_Wyndryder who was actually posting for Dana this time, and he's the one who said it was her "choice" to quote TKL's PM.
If it is not, however, I hope that the mods and admins reading this will look into and pursue this violation in the same way they would others, just as should be done regarding the original abuses that have been brought up.
For instance, I would like to direct you to this thread in the YJCC in which people were invited to discuss their their first PM. In it, you'll see people who unknowingly quoted their first PM and their posts were quickly deleted by moderators who know the rules: MalkieD2 and FamousAmos. Sadly, even with Dana's own admission that it has been done and repeated reference to it here, the quoted PM in the "'ships thread" remains unedited.
Why is this? Because Dana is a moderator and the others are afraid to edit her post even though it contains an admitted violation of the rules? Or is it considered evidence at this point and everyone is afraid that editing it will look like some sort of tampering? It seems strange that the same actions taken against well-meaning posters on the YJCC would not at least take place when the action was a perceived threat to the very person Dana was addressing in the Resource forum. I can't believe that MalkieD2 and FamousAmos are the only moderators who know it's against the rules to quote a private message, and yet, outside of Dana, only LadyPadme has even acknowledged that it happened in her post here.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
6/20/05 8:57am
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
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I apologize that this has taken so long, but I am back from my business trip and ready to go.
3) Administrators - to please review the issues presented, the moderators' responses and to please give their own insights on these issues. I'd like to leave the board open for this until Thursday, June 16 at 6:00PM.
First of all, I am basically an outsider to FanFic, but my brother has been heavily involved in it at times (I don't believe he is currently active). I have 8 posts in all of the Fanfic forums, and one of those was to give a statement of policy on PMs. The other 7 were all at my brother's urging.
I may be a little blunt with some of my observations, so I ask that none of you take offense at anything I say, because no offense is intended in any way. From what I see, most of the problems here come from poor communication, a lack of trust, and a focus on the "wrongs" of the past.
Communication is a critical aspect to any forum. When it breaks down, it is a failure on everyone's part. Pointing fingers at one side or the other does nothing to actually address the root cause of the breakdown in communication. If anything, it drives people away from solving the real problem. Just like the old saying, "If the student doesn't learn, the teacher isn't teaching", if the listener doesn't hear, the speaker isn't communicating. Communication is, and has to be, a team effort.
However, that also has to work both ways. Just like the moderators need to listen to and try to understand what users are saying, the users need to listen to and try to understand what the moderators are saying. By "try to understand", I don't mean "try to read what they said to fit preconceptions". I mean "try to read what they said as they mean it". A corollary to that is the remember that we are all people trying to help out here. Don't assume the worst of people, and try to fit their statements to that assumption. Assume the best of them, and try to work together.
A lack of trust is closely related to the communication issue, and in many ways serves as one of the causes of it. It seems to me that some users simply don't trust certain moderators for various reasons, sometimes on the silliest basis. Let me give you a non-FanFic example. When I was first promoted to mod the Senate, one user immediately objected to my promotion, mostly on the basis that he disagreed with my political views (and the fact that I had beaten him in several arguments over time  ). He immediately accused me of being biased in my moderating, even though I hadn't done anything yet (except ban a sock of mine, for practice). This, in turn, damaged many users' trust in me, to the point were I almost couldn't post in some threads without users accusing me of trying to intimidate them. I still see some of the after effects of this today, especially when I have to ban two people who are having a heated argument. I have often been accused by both people of being biased if favor of the other, even when I have treated both of them exactly the same.
Yes, trust must be earned, not just given, but it is also a two-way street. You have to be willing to give other people the opportunity to earn your trust. You need to give them the benefit of the doubt. Don't let your personal biases color your evaluation of someone's trustworthiness.
Related to that, I have often seen people (all over the forums, especially in Comms) base their trust in someone else on how much he agrees with their positions. That is one of the most ludicrous reasons to trust someone. That basically boils down to only trusting "yes-men", and eventually leads to massive errors in judgement.
On both sides, people need to allow others to earn trust. That means that users need to give moderators the benefit of the doubt, even when they disagree with a decision. That also means that moderators need to give users the benefit of the doubt, especially when they disagree with a decision.
Finally, all too often people focus on the past wrongs. You can't go back and fix the past, no matter how much you want to or try to. Study the past, learn from it, but do not focus on wrongs that need to be righted from the past. As my grandfather always used to say, make sure you are running towards something, not away from something.
This discussion should absolutely not focus on what Dana, Leona, LP, Herman, McEwok, Breezy, or anyone else did or said. It should be focused on where we want FanFic to be, and what we have to do to get there. To chart a course, you only need to know where you are and where you need to go (although it helps to know what obstacles are in your path, too). The past should be left in the past.
Kimball Kinnison
-----signature-----
You deserve the wrath of Kimball...- OWM
Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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LadyPadme
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
6/20/05 5:39pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
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Before I forget, thank you to all participants who have voiced their thoughts.
Also, of note: DarthSapient PM'd me to say he would try to respond sometime this week, but has also mentioned elsewhere that he has been stricken down with medical problems. Hopefully, he'll be feeling better soon and able to lend us his voice in this focus group discussion.
Now, moving along: I’ve looked over the responses that have been sent in over the weekend, and have tried to compile a list of issues that still require further discussion. A separate thread for each individual item seems excessive, especially since many issues may well overlap. Therefore, I’ve broken things down into four threads, and while there is overlap even amongst the four threads, my hope is that this split will allow for somewhat more focused discussion on individual topics.
These new threads are for free-form discussion. However, even though it may seem unnecessary, I’m going to state clearly that there is no place for flaming, baiting or insulting in these threads. Disagreements are perfectly valid and actually more discussion may in the end help us all come up with better solutions than just following a herd mentality, however, please keep your language civil and your comments focused on the topics at hand.
If there are any major topics I left out, please feel free to let me know in this thread or by PM. I hope this arrangement is satisfactory for all, and I hope as many participants as possible will contribute to all these threads even if some of them are not in your primary area of interest.
I. Communication
1) Improving user/mod interaction and communication – what would users like to see, and/or how would you suggest keeping lines of communication open
II. Moderation of Socialization
1) Role of socialization within resource
2) Character threads within socialization
3) Possibility of creating a new socialization forum
III. Moderator Accountability
1) Moderator accountability
2) TFN grievance process
3) Role of admins in evaluating/redressing issues related to moderators
4) PM privacy
5) Moderator activity – issues with moderated actions
IV. Fan Fiction’s future
1) Role of moderators within fan fiction
2) Mod presence/sociability
3) Creation of a senate
4) Direction of fan fiction for the future
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Crest MD Naimé Evil Twin of Gabri_Jade  When a baby smiles the world is happy  VOTE OBAMA '08
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DarthSapient
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
6/23/05 8:09am
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
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Friends, I apologize for not being active until now. I will try to from here on out. In addition to being sick myself, our family has been living through a tragedy. So bear with me.
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DamonD
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
6/24/05 1:49pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
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I'd like to apologise too...I don't have a reason as sad as Sape's, but work's been keeping me pretty busy and I've been finding it hard to get the time to even check in here at the moment. I'm keeping this place in mind and won't forget, and hope to be able to respond to all the new stuff soon.
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I love all 6 Star Wars films. Live with it.
Member of FIGS, the Fantastic Ian (McDiarmid) Gushers Society.
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LadyPadme
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
6/24/05 1:52pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
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DamonD, as you're here in a completely volunteer capacity, any help that you can give is appreciated, and the comments and advice that you already have given is greatly appreciated.
Come in whenever you have time, and don't worry about your DRL
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Crest MD Naimé Evil Twin of Gabri_Jade When a baby smiles the world is happy VOTE OBAMA '08
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Thrawn McEwok
Title: TFN EU Staff
Registered:
May '00
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Date Posted:
7/7/05 6:47pm
Subject:
RE: Issues - Please read the first post very carefully!
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*random uppage*
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A/T = OTP  "To write one Solo twin as an angstbunny, Master Skywalker, might be considered unfortunate. To write BOTH that way looks like carelessness."
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