I’ve been here for four years, so I’ve watched the forum evolve from where you had discussion and socialization separate, to something that is very different. Over the years we’ve changed from a resource forum for writing discussion with three social threads, to a forum where socializing is likely to happen just about anywhere at some point. While this wasn’t always the case, socialization threads are probably FFR’s most popular feature. I’m sure there are users that probably only come to the Resource forum because of the socialization threads. This can be a very good thing as it allows writers to get to know one another, find inspiration or help with stories, and have fun. I’m sure many people have made friends and use the social aspect of the forum to network for more readers and create name recognition. For writers these are all good things. The downside to the socialization creep in the forum is that it seems that the more relaxed the rules get the more expectations seem to increase that anything and everything should be allowed. I think this could end up down the line with the forum looking more like the JCC or the EUC. Would new posters be put off from posting either because the forum appears too cliquish, or because the amount of topic threads have been reduced? I think that’s something to consider. I don’t think that we should tighten up on the threads we already have, but I think I still prefer something that was suggested in the beginning of this discussion and that was to freeze the number of social threads to those already in existence, and add others on after an application and approval from the mods. As for off-topic, I think that for the most part it's okay, but occasionally threads might need a friendly nudge if they get carried away. I’d probably give a lot of leeway as long as it doesn’t go for too long. I’d hate to put numbers on it though. It’s so situational and I’d like to think that people could allow for some judgment to be used and if you disagreed with a mod that it would be handled one on one. There is a lot of talk about socialization being community building and that is true and I don’t want to remove it, but we can’t forget that the forum is also about fan fic writing.
The fanfic boards have come a long way in terms of socialization. A little over a year ago, the lone fan fiction board was split into four--three new forums focusing on different Star Wars eras, and a Classic board for all stories begun before the split. At the time, there was controversy over whether the Resource board also ought to be split into separate "Resource" and "Socialization" boards. The general consensus was that a separate socialization board was a bad idea, but three socialization-only threads no longer seemed sufficient. As a compromise, socialization rules were "significantly relaxed" throughout the fanfic forums. The rule was fairly vague and left a great deal open to interpretation--the request was merely that the new socialization policy not be abused. (The full text of the '04 rule is in the FanFic Resource FAQ.) At the time, many people were wary of the new socialization policy, and expressed worries that Resource would be overrun by what the FAQ calls "pointless chat threads." You can read people's comments on the board splits in the April '04 FanFic Boards Discussion thread. Since then, fanfic board users have warmed considerably to the idea of socialization. In the Survey thread that was begun in February, I tallied up 76 responses. (This was in early April--a few responses have been added since then.) Of these, 16 made mention of socialization as an issue of significant concern. Thirteen of these responses mentioned a desire for more socialization on the fanfic boards, while 3 indicated a desire for less. (A link to the "crunched numbers" of the survey is in my bio.) While fanfic board users are still generally opposed to having a board devoted to nothing but socialization, most seem to like the current "semi-social" content of the Resource forum, or else want to see socialization rules relaxed even further. I haven't tried to measure "socialization creep" within the forums, so I can't tell you how much more socialization there is now than there was a year ago, or if the amount of socialization is increasing at an especially rapid rate. My general sense is that socialization has found a kind of natural level on the boards, and that it has largely channeled itself into a relatively small number of threads rather than spreading out across the boards as a whole. This situation is not without its negatives--the main ones being the risk of cliquishness discouraging new users from posting in certain threads, and having socialization "hijack" board-designated official threads that can then neither be used for their intended purpose, nor duplicated, because of redundancy issues. However, specific complaints along these lines have been few; the concern seems to be largely that socialization will begin causing significant problems in these areas in the future, not that it is already causing problems now. It's generally preferable to lock the barn door before the horse gets out, but I think in this case we ought to leave well enough alone if no immediate problems are apparent. Communication and mistrust have repeatedly been identified as the main problems in the fanfic community--problems which can only be resolved by talking to one another. When you add this to the fact that enjoyment of socialization is nearly the only thing that our deeply divided board community has a consensus on, and you begin to see why this is not the time to make limiting socialization a priority. That said, Focus Group I discussed several possible ways to prevent socialization from "taking over" the Resource forum to the extent that it became a de facto separate socialization board. The most low-intervention method was giving thread starters/hosts primary responsibility for keeping their threads from going wildly off the rails. This method was incorporated into the new socialization guidelines developed by Focus Group I and posted in the April 11 Fanfic Update. My hope was that the adoption of this guideline would encourage the "de-regulation" of the board's community-building aspects, and return responsibility for them to the users. Just for the record, FG I also revisited and turned down the idea of creating a separate socialization board, as well as the idea of creating "themed social threads," which would have had a general topic posted in their titles, but would not have been modded for socialization. The general feeling was that any attempt to separate socialization from other Resource activities, whether with separate threads or boards, was undesirable. Personally, my first priority would be to avoid the kind of gray-area mod edits that drive users up the wall, and, I believe, indirectly create an increasing spiral of mod dependency through excessive moderator involvement in areas traditionally regulated by users. Because of this, I would support the creation of themed social threads as a means of eliminating the gray areas that cause trouble. However, I am aware that this is not what the community wants at this time. Given that, I suggest that threads be left to thread hosts for regulation except in "emergency" cases--such as when there have been several complaints about spam posts in a thread, or when a thread has become really egregiously unmoored from its supposed topic. (Several pages of chat about people's jobs, for instance, and no response from a thread host when s/he is PM'ed about the problem.) If relations between mods and users were better, gray-area modding might not be such a big deal, but at the moment, for both mods' and users' sakes, I'd suggest that the mods stay as much in the black and white zones as possible. For a time, there may (or may not) be more socialization than some are comfortable with, but a more lax attitude toward socialization is cheap insurance against the kind of raging drama threads that derail the entire Resource forum.
I am relatively new to the fanfic boards, not even here a year yet, so I have never seen the boards without socialization and think it is a good thing within fanfic. As I have heard from many people, it’s takes a lot of nerve to put writing out on a public forum, and I personally would not have felt comfortable with doing that without the support of many friends I have made on the boards and without the warm welcome I received coming in as a complete outsider. The first focus group has spent a lot of time discussing the issue of socialization and even came up with a guideline for socialization within fanfic. To be honest, I still find it is a bit confining and did express that in the focus group, but I believe it is fair. I am glad that it allows leeway for some “off-topic” chat and has a broad definition of “on-topic” chat. I believe that loose definitions are essential as we are a creative bunch and it is hard to dictate what will spur that creativity on to something really great to read. I understand not wanting spam, but the last thing I think Resource should be is a place where creativity is stamped out in the name of keeping things to a narrowly defined topic. I also think that as we develop friendships, we want to be able to congratulate people in their lives and also be there when things are rough. While it is a bit unnerving to have that sort of interaction given the negative label of “off-topic chat”, I think it is an element necessary to build a community. The “ball is now in the moderators’ court” as far as the issue of socialization. The most recent problems with the issue have not been from the rule, but from how that rule is moderated. If anything Star Wars, fanfic, or writing related is considered “on-topic” then there should be no need for intervention if this is being discussed and no TOS violation has occurred. If a post or even a few posts veer “off-topic”, is it really necessary to charge into the thread with a reminder to get back on topic? I have seen that done. If a thread has 50 non-spam posts a day is that a bad thing? Maybe it just means it is an enjoyable place to be. Maybe it means that new people are joining that thread everyday and that community is growing. I would actually hate to think any moderator is sitting there counting posts to make sure the majority are on topic. That just makes people apprehensive about posting and is negative to community and creativity. I have not participated in a fanfic board here that I have seen go off topic and stay off topic. We are fanfic writers and Star Wars fans. The discussion will return to these topics and we will have picked up some wonderful ideas and had some great fun along the way. So what do we do? Communicate – that’s important. As an individual, a moderator may prefer narrowly defined topics and less socialization. Is that the right approach to take in modding when the majority of the community has communicated that they enjoy a looser definition and are within the rules? The differing motivations will cause frustration. If a moderator feels the discussion is off-topic, is it always cause to step into a thread? Is it possible the problem is minor and will resolve itself? Are there other ways to handle it? Moderators stepping into a thread to issue even a casual warning like, “Please get back on topic,” can seem harsh if users don’t feel they were that off topic. Yes, users can ask for clarification, but I think moderators have the greater responsibility to be clear and concise up front. I truly believe that if there had been greater listening and communicating from the moderators, socialization would not be the issue it is now.
I was, and still am, under the impression that we had developed a rule for socialization that everyone was in agreement with. I think that any subsequent issues with socialization are probably in the nature of communication errors but I think that they need to be cleared up and then moved on from. That I believe is supposed to be the purview of Focus Group 2. I will however make some observations. I believe that a moderator should moderate to the rules, not their personal feelings on a matter. I believe that holds true for all the rules not just one or two. I actually have no objection to a Mod asking people to do something closer to the Mod's personal feelings on an issue (so long as it is within the rules as opposed to violating them, naturally) however, that should be approached in a completely different way than if the rule were actually being exceeded. So, for example, (and to partially address Herman's belief that other work is not applicable in a character thread), if the Qui-Gon thread were to be discussing his approach to his mentor character in Batman Begins by begining to discuss it as it related to how he might have been expected to approach playing Qui-Gon had that character not been killed in TPM, I believe that that should count as an on-topic conversation, and I believe that most folks would grasp that and agree. And that the users would understand the relevance even if the name Qui-Gon did not get mentioned for four or five posts. Now if a Mod were to personally prefer that only direct discussion of Qui-Gon himself as he appeared in the film should take place in his character thread, then I think at most the Mod could ask the thread host, or one of the participants if the thread host were not there, by PM to please try to tie the conversational topic back to Qui-Gon more directly or frequently or something. But to be honest, unless there is some sort of complaint I really do not understand why there would be an issue at all. Why not just let it go? A great AU fic may come from it. Or more than one for that matter. I think any time a Moderator intervenes in a thread for anything other than a TOS violation that it should be phrased as a request and with an explanation of exactly what the issue is and what the preferred direction would be. I think a lot of the problems are from people having no idea what the issue was that caused the Mod to intervene. Indeed even in the case of a TOS violation I think an explanation is in order. Though it needn't be lengthy or anything. Just a simple "swearing is a violation of the TOS" or whatever. Though for things that might be eye-of-the-beholder a slightly different tone might be better PR, "this looks like baiting to me, please try to consider how others will view your post before clicking the 'post reply' button" or something. When the problem is a violation of one of the many unwritten rules that I am sure exist (like thou shalt not dis GL too much) then that rule and the fact that the user could not have known about it from reading the published rules, needs to be acknowledged in the request by a Mod that it stop. And when the issue is not really what the Mod says it is then I think you have to expect confusion. So if the problem is that people are talking about the new cartoons and you are worried that they will spoil things for the die-hard spoiler free, but there has been no rule or even request saying, "don't even talk vaguely about the new cartoons anywhere but in the designated place", then don't say "that's not appropriate here" say "we try in FanFic to be super careful about spoilers so if you could please make sure you don't say anything that might be even the tiniest of spoilers in the threads here, but you can go there and not have to worry about spoiling anyone" then people know what you are trying to avoid and can help you to achieve the actual goal. Likewise if the problem is people have PMed a mod because they are afraid to enter a conversation, well, a poster is supposed to be at least 13 so they should be able to handle being introduced via PM to either a thread host, or a common poster on the thread who can help them feel comfortable by introducing them or whatever. Particularly in a thread that appears to welcome newcomers. If the problem is people have PMed that they are uncomfortable with a particular topic or attitude then again, the solution is to not post something saying "get back on topic" but rather to PM the thread host or an active participant and explain the issue and allow them to either explain the viewpoint or change the course of the conversation. Though if someone is saying they are not happy with the Anakin thread because people are still talking about how much they like him after EP3, I would say the problem is not with the particpants on the Anakin thread... Perhaps all of the above boils down to "We have a fine rule now, Just enforce the rules as they are written, and if there is any possibility of a grey area, approach things politely, citing any unwritten (or written) rule or 'general usage', and explain clearly and honestly what you want to have happen and why." KD
I think any time a Moderator intervenes in a thread for anything other than a TOS violation that it should be phrased as a request and with an explanation of exactly what the issue is and what the preferred direction would be. I think a lot of the problems are from people having no idea what the issue was that caused the Mod to intervene. Indeed even in the case of a TOS violation I think an explanation is in order. Though it needn't be lengthy or anything. Just a simple "swearing is a violation of the TOS" or whatever. Though for things that might be eye-of-the-beholder a slightly different tone might be better PR, "this looks like baiting to me, please try to consider how others will view your post before clicking the 'post reply' button" or something. Perhaps all of the above boils down to "We have a fine rule now, Just enforce the rules as they are written, and if there is any possibility of a grey area, approach things politely, citing any unwritten (or written) rule or 'general usage', and explain clearly and honestly what you want to have happen and why." KD
JediJainaSoloFel posted: I think that the amount of socialization that goes on in a thread really should be up to the person who started the thread. As long as the issues pertaining to the discussion of fan fiction are still easy to find. Perhaps if a person is going to allow a lot of socialization in their threads they could post links in the first post that would direct users who are only there to find out about characterization. This may create more work for the person who originally posted the thread but I think that it could help solve a lot of the problems.
Shinar posted: I really, REALLY like the new boards sugesstion. That would solve to socialization issue right there. If it's not related to the story then go post it on the socialzation board, it's as simple as that. And that would have another bonus, slowing down the boards a bit. I noticed some newbies complaining (especially at the Saga noms thread) and have noticed the boards are picking up speed even if they are NOWHERE near as bad as they were before the split! Very Happy The new boards would probably adress: Mod presence/Sociability Modding of socialization User/mod communication and interaction Role of Resource thread in terms of socialization. That's a good sized chunk of issues right there. And they'd open up new doors for communication which would probably deal with most of the rest in time.
Lt_Jaina_Solo posted: If it isn't breaking TOS, leave it. Have specific socialization threads set aside for a variety of interests (mostly related to fanfiction- like the age groups, and character- and pairing-based ones we've got), since not everyone from a certain demographic is the exact same and likes the same things (for example, I like soccer, science fiction, fantasy, music, Ewan/Obi-Wan, Hayden/Anakin, Jaina Solo/Jagged Fel. I can discuss the first three or four in the Teenage thread, along with some of the last three, but focus the last three in their specific threads.) Again, if it's not breaking TOS, leave it. In my mind, socialization is not a bad thing. That's what brings us together as a community. We can look to our counterparts for assistance in matters troubling us. How many of us can't say we didn't discuss this issue with other people on the boards?
obi_ew posted: I'm well and truly stumped.
Jesina posted:Something without guided topics, where anyone could chat about anything. A lot of people seem to dislike the cliques that form, and want to see groups merge together.
TKL posted:Who would have known that people could like Obi-Wan and Jacen at the same time?
Jesina posted: I just think a single general social thread might help.
Jesina_Dreis posted:No, I'd agree people aren't excluded, but I think there are some who wish that, instead of there being "the J/J shippers" and "the J/K shippers" and "the J/Z shippers" and then the Obidala people, etc, that some of those lines could be eased.
