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Author Topic: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
lexu 
Registered: May '02
20236_Mara Jade
Date Posted: 2/23 10:32pm Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
solojones posted:
And I definitely think that climate has led to an increased incidence of objectification of female posters and harassment issues. It's bad enough to have to deal with this in our culture at large, where it's impossible to go out in the evening without getting whistled at/having inappropriate comments thrown at you. It's worse when a board that is regulated starts dipping into that kind of atmosphere.

I feel conflicted about this because I like that kind of humor, I'm not put off by joking around like that and even unmerciful teasing. My group of friends is totally un-PC. I'm sure a lot of you are like that, too. On the boards, joking around like that with other cool people is equally fun. Sometimes holding back just enough to stay within the realm of the TOS is like a game.

However, there's a reason you usually only joke around about that kind of stuff with your friends because you trust them not to abuse the situation. When it's in public, there are always people who take it too far or take it as an opportunity for something sleazy. That's when you get the objectification and harassment.

I don't want more rules. I'm all about the mods using their judgment--that's why we're selective about picking them, right? The only change I would make is to ask them to be harsher in dealing with the clearly problematic people and situations so that everyone gets a better understanding of where that line is.

 

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harpuah 
Registered: Mar '05
8040_Natalie's Eye
Date Posted: 2/23 10:37pm Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC - Date Edited: 2/23 10:41pm (2 edits total) Edited By: harpuah
Clear in whose eyes though? Not everybody sees things in the same way.

 

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dp4m 
Registered: Nov '01
13878_Luke Skywalker<br>Dark Empire
Date Posted: 2/23 10:40pm Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
lexu posted:
I feel conflicted about this because I like that kind of humor, I'm not put off by joking around like that and even unmerciful teasing. My group of friends is totally un-PC. I'm sure a lot of you are like that, too. On the boards, joking around like that with other cool people is equally fun. Sometimes holding back just enough to stay within the realm of the TOS is like a game.

However, there's a reason you usually only joke around about that kind of stuff with your friends because you trust them not to abuse the situation. When it's in public, there are always people who take it too far or take it as an opportunity for something sleazy. That's when you get the objectification and harassment.

I don't want more rules. I'm all about the mods using their judgment--that's why we're selective about picking them, right? The only change I would make is to ask them to be harsher in dealing with the clearly problematic people and situations so that everyone gets a better understanding of where that line is.


I agree, my friends and I about about the LEAST PC people I know. I call my Vietnamese friend "Charley" and he calls me "Dirty Jew," with several other types of things like that going about. Hell, even with my guildmates in WoW, we joke about me carrying about my "bag of Jew gold" (a la South Park) because I'm the Guild Master and have the Guild Bank and Master Loot in raids. But I've known those people in very tight situations for years in some cases now. The majority of my RL friends I've known since 4th - 8th grade.

However, and this is an important point which people forget, text is not a forgiving medium.

I think the stats are:

In-person communication: 85% body-language, 10% how you say something, 5% what you say.
Voice-communication only: 80% how you say something, 20% what you say.
Written-communication only: 100% what you say.

Even *I* forget this with my friends sometimes and I've had them get pissed, because I forget that "email cannot transmit sarcasm." I think getting everyone in this group at a poolside in Vegas chatting sarcastically will work perfectly fine; but have the same conversation in a Virtual JCC Pool Party thread on the forums would be a DISASTER.

 

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lexu 
Registered: May '02
20236_Mara Jade
Date Posted: 2/23 10:42pm Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
I trust that most of us share a basic concept of where the line is, and I think all of our mods do.

 

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harpuah 
Registered: Mar '05
8040_Natalie's Eye
Date Posted: 2/23 10:48pm Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC - Date Edited: 2/23 10:59pm (2 edits total) Edited By: harpuah
Ideally, yes... but I recall a recent thread when you said something insulting to Eeth, and I told you if you did that again, I would rip both sets of your lips off and feed them to you. Some people really got a bit bent out of shape over that, but you knew I was kidding, and joked right back.. posting a sad face and saying you were really looking forward to it, when I informed the group that I was, in fact, joking.. see what I mean? The line can't really be defined for as large of a group as we have here... we're all different.

Edit: I feel the need to say... again, that I do not condone sexual harassment. That being, if somebody makes a comment / request at you, and you clearly state to them that they are making you uncomfortable, and want them to stop, and they don't, that is indeed sexual harassment, and something needs to be done about it. I guess what I'm saying is the line needs to be drawn by the individual.

 

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dp4m 
Registered: Nov '01
13878_Luke Skywalker<br>Dark Empire
Date Posted: 2/23 11:34pm Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
harpuah posted:
Ideally, yes... but I recall a recent thread when you said something insulting to Eeth, and I told you if you did that again, I would rip both sets of your lips off and feed them to you. Some people really got a bit bent out of shape over that, but you knew I was kidding, and joked right back.. posting a sad face and saying you were really looking forward to it, when I informed the group that I was, in fact, joking.. see what I mean? The line can't really be defined for as large of a group as we have here... we're all different.


Harps, one of the points you bring up in that up there, specifically with "I told you if you did that again, I would rip both sets of your lips off and feed them to you" is one of the things I touched on in the other thread about why I don't moderate in the JCC. That post 100%, completely and entirely requires a moderator to divine "intent" to not immediately ban you for threatening a user, right?

This is part of the issue with the sexuality and harassment as well, IMO, is that it's far easier to be laissez-faire and assume that it's just joking around until you receive an actual complaint when the de rigeur action is ALREADY to divine intent of a post rather than take it at face value. And, to solojones, this is one of those things that's "not written down," which drives me crazy.

 

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Spiderfan 
Registered: Mar '04
43284_Digital Llama Radio
Date Posted: 2/23 11:56pm Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
I haven't noticed specific issues nor have I been particularly offended by anything. However I am a relatively low-key person and don't garner enough attention to be subjected to any kind of harassment so perhaps I don't have the correct perspective to comment in depth. I do feel that if its a consistent enough issue to be the first major topic of conversation it perhaps warrants further discussion. But more importantly I don't want the crack down to go too far. There is a fine line to be walked I think. Harassment can not be allowed, but I also don't think its anyone's place to stifle someone's fun. While it can't go too far in one direction, I worry that it might be taken too far in the other direction. Then again I am not being harassed so I am not sure I have the appropriate context in mind to comment.

Beyond concerns of over-compensating for harassment, I generally agree with what's said.

 

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lexu 
Registered: May '02
20236_Mara Jade
Date Posted: 2/24 12:43am Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
harpuah posted:
Ideally, yes... but I recall a recent thread when you said something insulting to Eeth, and I told you if you did that again, I would rip both sets of your lips off and feed them to you. Some people really got a bit bent out of shape over that, but you knew I was kidding, and joked right back.. posting a sad face and saying you were really looking forward to it, when I informed the group that I was, in fact, joking.. see what I mean? The line can't really be defined for as large of a group as we have here... we're all different.

I wasn't quite sure if you were joking or not at first, either. After people said something about it, I assumed you'd either say it was a joke (which of course you did) or a mod would see it and take action. It was just the way you said it with a happy instead of a tongue or even a angry . Usually in the JCC, happy is not nice. tongue

 

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1Yodimus_Prime 
Registered: Mar '04
14749_Jawa 'Toon
Date Posted: 2/24 1:25am Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC - Date Edited: 2/24 1:25am (1 edits total) Edited By: 1Yodimus_Prime
Funny thing about that - unless it's an email from my mom, I've always read the plain happy face as either slightly condescending, or negatively ironic, depending on the context.

Now I wonder if this is more common than I assumed

 

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harpuah 
Registered: Mar '05
8040_Natalie's Eye
Date Posted: 2/24 2:00am Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
Honestly, I find the wink emote to be the most condescending one of all.

 

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Grand_Admiral_Grant 
Title: Ex-Mod
Registered: Nov '04
7883_Tycho
Date Posted: 2/24 3:51am Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC - Date Edited: 2/24 3:51am (1 edits total) Edited By: Grand_Admiral_Grant
lexu posted:
harpuah posted:
Ideally, yes... but I recall a recent thread when you said something insulting to Eeth, and I told you if you did that again, I would rip both sets of your lips off and feed them to you. Some people really got a bit bent out of shape over that, but you knew I was kidding, and joked right back.. posting a sad face and saying you were really looking forward to it, when I informed the group that I was, in fact, joking.. see what I mean? The line can't really be defined for as large of a group as we have here... we're all different.

I wasn't quite sure if you were joking or not at first, either. After people said something about it, I assumed you'd either say it was a joke (which of course you did) or a mod would see it and take action. It was just the way you said it with a happy instead of a tongue or even a angry . Usually in the JCC, happy is not nice. tongue

I actually remember that post, I had my finger hovering over the edit-button for a while trying to figure out what you meant with it. I finally decided to give you the benefit of the doubt as I know you a little. And luckily for me, I seemed to be right in the end, otherwise I'd probably had to deal with a couple of more complaints about it. tongue

Just an illustration how difficult it sometimes is to moderate certain cases and how thin the line between a joke and harassment can be.

So my question is: how would you suggest we deal with this? Start enforcing a zero-tolerance policy on this? Send the poster (or the "victim") a PM to ask for clarification? Or use a wait-and-see approach?

 

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ApolloSmileGirl 
Registered: Jun '04
17655_Padme Waves Goodbye
Date Posted: 2/24 5:31am Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
With the exception of one or two of the members of this focus group, I think I know them, and they know me well enough to know when I'm joking around(which is almost all of the time). In fact, people usually think that I'm joking when I am being serious. tongue

I think most everyone in here knows each other well enough to know their particular brand of humor and what not. I'd hate for it to turn into a big argument, but perhaps there should be some people that don't quite agree with the humor that most of us tend to find funny, and perhaps establish a dialog with a few of them that quite simply hate most of our guts?

As far as people leaving because they don't like what the JC has "become", I think it's important to remember that a lot of the lost users might just possibly have moved on from the site, or just plain grown out of Star Wars. I don't think it's fair to assume it's because someone said that, and someone said this. The very nature of a community such as the JC is to evolve. It has evolved, and there are obviously going to be people afraid of change. The JC could be an entirely different environment in a year from now, and everyone here could decide to move on. I really don't think it's fair to get upset over the current state of the JC not being a few user's cup of tea, when it's obviously still a great deal of our's.

As far as the sexual innuendo regarding jokes and references, you do realize that they go completely over the heads of a lot of the user's here heads, right? The ones that do get it, in most cases are adults, and to most of us it's just lowbrow.

I'd be way more concerned about what parents think about this board when it comes to visual threads like the hottie wars. I think page, after page, after page of voluptuous women in skimpy bras and panties would offend parents more than any innuendo made here. Personally, that stuff doesn't bug me, but I would think that would be more of a concern if we're going to discuss the subject of sex and sexuality being watered down in anything other than a sterile "Biology class" medical term only, way.

 

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Souderwan 
Registered: Jun '05
8129_Mace Windu
Date Posted: 2/24 8:09am Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
Grand_Admiral_Grant posted:

I actually remember that post, I had my finger hovering over the edit-button for a while trying to figure out what you meant with it. I finally decided to give you the benefit of the doubt as I know you a little. And luckily for me, I seemed to be right in the end, otherwise I'd probably had to deal with a couple of more complaints about it. tongue


Best decision in your moderating career! tongue

Actually, I'm glad you said something. It's far more common for us to recognize when you guys take action than when you don't and it's easy to forget that you mods actually exercise a fair amount of restraint.

Grand_Admiral_Grant posted:
So my question is: how would you suggest we deal with this? Start enforcing a zero-tolerance policy on this? Send the poster (or the "victim") a PM to ask for clarification? Or use a wait-and-see approach?


Definitely don't even consider some kind of zero-tolerance policy. That's a horrible idea! Horrible! Horrible! Horrible!! (Can you tell that I think it's a bad idea? tongue )

I like the PM idea, but I don't think it's particularly practical. You guys probably already deal with a metric butt tonne (British tonnes, that is, since we're using the metric system here) of PMs every day. It'd be a bit much to expect you to post more.

Honestly, I have no problem with you guys just posting a warning in the thread. I'll post this thought elsewhere, but generally, I hate edits that aren't to correct foul language. I remember when warnings in a discussion were standard efore edits became the norm. There's nothing wrong with popping into a thread and saying (in bold or with pretty colors) "Ok, kids. You guys are starting to piss me off. I see one more naked guy wearing my lampshade on his head, I'm gonna shut this party down."

 

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solojones 
Registered: Sep '00
24089_Obi-Wans
Date Posted: 2/24 12:57pm Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
The problem isn't necessarily in the innuendos (although I think once in a while it goes over the line a bit). The real problem is that this creates an atmosphere where some people think it's then ok to direct those innuendos at other users who don't want that kind of attention. I think it needs to be made more clear that that's not ok.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

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ApolloSmileGirl 
Registered: Jun '04
17655_Padme Waves Goodbye
Date Posted: 2/24 1:18pm Subject: RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
Well, if it creates that atmosphere for certain individuals, don't you think that that should really be addressed on more of an individual case?

Just because a few people aren't mature, or stable enough to understand that it's mostly just dumb humor in these innuendos, doesn't mean that they should be monitored more closely for the vast majority of users that do understand that it's all in fun.

 

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