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Topic:
Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/24 8:50pm
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
- Date Edited:
2/24 9:07pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
harpuah
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I think it should be handled pretty much in the way a case like this would be handled in real life. If a person is being harassed, he / she should notify the authorities (in this case a mod), and after investigation, if evidence (chat transcript, email, etc...) showed that there was indeed harassment going on, a "restraining order" (warning for this person to stay away from the person being harassed.. not to address them in threads, not to PM them), would be put in place. The victim should block this person on any IM channels and cease all contact. If this restraining order was to be broken, then the accused would "go to jail" (banned). This of course would have to go both ways.. the victim should not be allowed to address or PM the accused.
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dp4m
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
2/24 9:48pm
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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harpuah, while I (personally) totally agree with you in principle, chat logs, transcripts and emails from offsite can be (and, frankly, have been) faked. Which is why, unless one of us personally witnessed it, it's extraordinarily difficult to monitor/verify.
Also, Kate, I believe in the past there was a "Sexual Harassment Group" for people specifically to complain to if they felt that way; I seem to recall you either pioneering that or being on the initial run? Did it ever get past inception stage or was it just a pipe dream?
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/24 10:37pm
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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Oh, I understand that. I was only answering 506's question. I personally don't think such extreme measures need to be taken. 
As I said before, it's a matter of a person saying "you're making me uncomfortable," simple as that.
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Crash_Davis
Registered:
Mar '06
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Date Posted:
2/25 5:01am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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I've seen a lot of sexual innuendo during my time here. However, I haven't seen anything that I would say is offensive.
I do suppose that once you're here a while, you get a flavor for who you can slide a   comment to, and know they won't take it as harassment. I think this just comes with time and getting to know everyone.
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A truly rich man is one whose children run into his arms when his hands are empty.
Ia ora te natura
E mea arofa teie ao nei.
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rhonderoo
Title:
Former Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/25 7:19am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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I'll also agree with moderating offsite stuff. We just can't do it. If it comes here, or involves someone planning something for here, it's a bit different. Even then, planning is something that would take much evidence or a mod seeing it themselves and waiting until it was an infraction here. (i.e. trolling sprees, for instance)
A PM to you here, is a different story. We do ask that you tell the person to stop unless it's (to use Souderwan's analogy) Red. Once you've told someone once, and they continue, it's harassment. Even if it's a PM about reading someone's fan fic, or voting in some game. You have the right to post here without fear of any kind of solicitation or harassment.
I will say this, however, regarding JCChat, and some of the comments I've seen regarding it. I've been on the chat, and I enjoy kicking my shoes off with fellow JCCers in a more laid back atmosphere. I've seen the general gossip and other stuff, and like I said above, we can't mod that. But when I see things like parody sprees (if I'm wrong about this coming from chat sometimes, I apologize), and stuff that the community can't participate in, I get concerned. I think this is where the general "clique" feeling comes in. And I know that chat isn't the only place stuff like this happens. There's probably a thread or convo somewhere about this very focus group (it's not a big secret and would be pretty boring, but, eh...), and we know that happens and couldn't do anything if we wanted to. But we DO ask that when you're bringing things from other places, give people background (as long as it's not going to lead to problems or against the TOS) and give everyone a chance to be involved, where possible. Sorry, probably should have put this in the other thread, but the IM conversation reminded me.
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DT421  And the hot chick is really the sister of the good guy, but they don't know it, and they kiss. Which is kind of messed up. I mean, what if they had done it instead of just kissed?
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ApolloSmileGirl
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
2/25 7:33am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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Considering that the JC chat is a public chat, doesn't that mean that everyone here is automatically invited to be involved?
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Queen " Baadasssss Pixie" of the Knights of the Sarcasm Table At first when I see you cry....Yeah, it makes me smile Yeah, it makes me smile At worst I feel bad for a while, But then I just smile I go ahead and smile......  VIN
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rhonderoo
Title:
Former Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/25 7:42am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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Yeah, but that's like putting an ad in small print. I think it's just one of those things where people either don't use AIM, or feel intimidated, or just don't want to. So, I'm not saying everything that is discussed in chat stays in chat, but I think we should aim for letting more people in on the joke, if we can.
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DT421 And the hot chick is really the sister of the good guy, but they don't know it, and they kiss. Which is kind of messed up. I mean, what if they had done it instead of just kissed?
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
2/25 7:46am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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ObiWan506 posted:
Suppose a moderator had received word of something through an AIM channel where s/he heard that a user was going onto the JCC to follow someone around for the intention of annoying and baiting them. Now while their posts are within ToS, because of an offsite disclosure, we know there is malicious intent behind it. It's not information we were seeking, it's something we just picked up offsite. With someone's intention realized, do we still play it by the book, risk the situation becoming worse and wait for a person to break ToS before jumping in? Or protect the user being stalked early enough before it escalates because we know the true intent?
I would think you'd PM the accused and let him/her know that a) the accusation has been made; and b) you are watching the situation. That, to me, would be perfectly acceptable. Anything more than that would be pretty unfair to the person in question. I've seen people try to use mods to execute their personal vendettas (lol @ internet vendettas!) and mods, having their own biases, falling for it. If you think about it, user A could say that user B is following him/her around the boards while user A is actually the one doing it. This would be hard (though not impossible) to verify, right? The reality is that some of the people on the boards are emotionally immature and reacting to their whimsical fantasies can only end up stressing you out while enabling bad behavior.
ObiWan506 posted:
Let me say that I agree that any offsite content should not be included in any actions on this site, but we're trying to get a better definition of that. In my example above, it's not information we were actively seeking, we just stumbled upon it. It's sorta like asking a jury to forget a recent piece of evidence that was found illegally and therefore not allowed to participate in the trial. The evidence is already known - not by the fault of the jury - but they are supposed to magically remove that bit from their memory. Moderators are not blind to some things that happen offsite because believe it or not we do go to other places besides the JC. We do it for entertainment, not for the purpose of spying. However we do hear and see things in other places that could effect our perception of events here.
Same principle as above. Off-site is off-site. I don't want to rehash old drama but I've been the subject of "stumbled upon evidence". It pissed me off to no end. What was worse is that the mods in question didn't even address the topic with me. Instead they tried and convicted me without questioning the motives of the person delivering the information. That little bit of ridiculousness drove me out of fanfic and almost off the boards completely. Were it not for the fact that Roo is awesome, I'd have been gone (I <3 u, Rhonda ). Seriously, though. I think it's just too hard to tell what is what when "information" is given to mods--what's the source, what's the reliability of the source, what does it actually mean, blah, blah? You guys have better things to do with your scanty time.
rhonderoo posted:
I will say this, however, regarding JCChat, and some of the comments I've seen regarding it. I've been on the chat, and I enjoy kicking my shoes off with fellow JCCers in a more laid back atmosphere. I've seen the general gossip and other stuff, and like I said above, we can't mod that. But when I see things like parody sprees (if I'm wrong about this coming from chat sometimes, I apologize), and stuff that the community can't participate in, I get concerned. I think this is where the general "clique" feeling comes in. And I know that chat isn't the only place stuff like this happens.
That's fair. I understand the concern, honestly. That said, I think that trend of threads popping up that you'd only get if you were in chat has abated. To be fair, there are a lot of threads that pop up that make absolutely no sense at all that have nothing to do with chat. But yeah...I hear you. *
*genuine smile, not the JCC condescending one.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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ApolloSmileGirl
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
2/25 7:58am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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rhonderoo posted:
Yeah, but that's like putting an ad in small print. I think it's just one of those things where people either don't use AIM, or feel intimidated, or just don't want to. So, I'm not saying everything that is discussed in chat stays in chat, but I think we should aim for letting more people in on the joke, if we can.
It's a thread that's constantly bumped in the JC Rhondaroos, it's not like a small ad in comparison when it's almost always on the front page. The chat is an open invite, if people choose not to take it up than that's their own fault.
What are we supposed to do when making a thread that relates to a topic from the chat? Write a dissertation at the begining of the thread to explain said thread, or post a lengthy chat log?
Only response you'll get from people that don't know what the thread is about will be a TL;DR.
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Queen " Baadasssss Pixie" of the Knights of the Sarcasm Table At first when I see you cry....Yeah, it makes me smile Yeah, it makes me smile At worst I feel bad for a while, But then I just smile I go ahead and smile...... VIN
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rhonderoo
Title:
Former Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/25 8:37am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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Oh, I don't think it has to be treatise, but a "so and so said on chat" or something. I think we should aim for the most people we can when starting threads, but it's just not practical all the time. We have started cutting down on the stuff that should be in PM's. And I'm, like, ridiculously off topic by now, aren't I? 
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DT421 And the hot chick is really the sister of the good guy, but they don't know it, and they kiss. Which is kind of messed up. I mean, what if they had done it instead of just kissed?
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ApolloSmileGirl
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
2/25 8:45am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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Do fries come with that shake?  
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Queen " Baadasssss Pixie" of the Knights of the Sarcasm Table At first when I see you cry....Yeah, it makes me smile Yeah, it makes me smile At worst I feel bad for a while, But then I just smile I go ahead and smile...... VIN
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Spiderfan
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
2/25 9:42am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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On the Chat issue I have to say that if people feel excluded because of chat its up to them to decide whether they want to join in or not. As ASG said there is nothing stopping anyone from joining in. I recently jumped on board and feel more apart of the community then I ever did one the boards. Its also nice to have a place to talk to people and not have to censor one's self. I honestly quite enjoy the chat and regret not joining sooner.
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"Yeah, well my god has a hammer." - Nick Fury  You look like you could use a hug: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/28325808/p1/?211
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Crash_Davis
Registered:
Mar '06
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Date Posted:
2/25 9:46am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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I've tried joining the chat once or twice. It's kind of awkward at first, kind of like being at a party and not knowing everyone's name, and since not everyone uses the same username as their JCC username, it's a bit intimidating if you're a bit on the shy side.
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A truly rich man is one whose children run into his arms when his hands are empty.
Ia ora te natura
E mea arofa teie ao nei.
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rhonderoo
Title:
Former Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/25 9:48am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
- Date Edited:
2/25 9:49am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
rhonderoo
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We could probably start another thread on Chat since it appears to be a bigger issue.
But at the end of the day it goes back to the fact that the chat is not here, on TFN. It's an AIM chat that JCCers go to chat. Technically it's no more JC than another forum on another message board that you may also post on with some other JCCers.
Users really shouldn't have to join chat to feel apart of the community or not feel left out. Again, I'm not talking about in the general sense and a thread every now and then that others could join if they wanted is fine, but too many and we're not really inviting people to post on the JCC, we're inviting to join a AIM chat. Which is fine, but don't get the two mixed up. People log in here to post here, not join an AIM chat.
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DT421 And the hot chick is really the sister of the good guy, but they don't know it, and they kiss. Which is kind of messed up. I mean, what if they had done it instead of just kissed?
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Spiderfan
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
2/25 9:58am
Subject:
RE: Where's the line? Sexual harassment, innuendo, and the JCC
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Indeed and I am not suggesting that people necessarily have to join into the chat to belong. I am just saying that if someone feels excluded I don't really see a problem because its not a private thing. That said the same kinda of camaraderie that grows out of the chat is something that I think might be beneficial to try to bring back to the boards to develop a more inclusive community feel.
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"Yeah, well my god has a hammer." - Nick Fury You look like you could use a hug: http://boards.theforce.net/your_jedi_council_community/b10008/28325808/p1/?211
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