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Topic:
Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/26 11:43pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/26 11:45pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
harpuah
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MASTERPRENN posted:
I don't really like the idea of a Christian social thread as a "fix". I don't think it will help the problem at all.
What do you think will help the problem?
wocky... you know me by now.. I'd hope.  I am not a passive aggressive person. I do not imply things. If I have something to say, I will directly say it.. so there is no need to search through my posts for hidden meaning...
Anyway... what I was originally getting at is people are always going to question your faith. Questioning a faith is very very different from bashing.
If I were to say to Rachel, "I don't get your faith, it makes absolutely zero sense to me, and I just don't buy it." That would be my honest opinion, and I have every right to state it without her attempting to get me in trouble for it... I shouldn't be edited for giving my honest opinion. Now if I were to say "all christians are complete idiots" (which, by the way, I would never ever say, I have christian friends), I would be completely in the wrong, and would deserve any punishment coming to me.
I have to say, I've never seen another user address a christian in this daragatory way... and if I'm wrong, please link to examples
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/26 11:46pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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People are generally smart enough not to say "you are stupid" directly to Christians but instead say "Christians are stupid", which obviously includes the Christian they're talking to but gets around actually saying their name.
That's different than having an opinion on a religion itself.
-sj loves kevin spacey
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/26 11:48pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/26 11:54pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
harpuah
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Can you provide a link to an example of a person saying "christians are stupid." or anythong close?
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Forum Feud Winner
Reduced Time
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
2/26 11:56pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/26 11:57pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
MASTERPRENN
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I'm working on obtaining the links now, but there are definitely some examples out there.
As to your other question, I'm not sure there's much we can do to "fix" it, other than enforce the logical rules that are already in place (that's what the mods can do), and encourage rational, logical, respectful dialog with those that we disagree with, chiefly by exemplifying that whenever we ourselves have the opportunity to do so (that's what we the users can do).
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/26 11:58pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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Not at this time, it's late and I've spent about 9 hours today working on a research paper so I'm going to go relax and go to bed now...
In the meantime, maybe you can address the thought I put out there about people jumping to conclusions about what Christians are implying about other people, even when it's clear they're not implying anything at all. I mean, you've shown just how impossible it is for Christians to make any kind of statement about themselves without someone else jumping all over them, assuming they're condemning other people even when they clearly aren't. Honestly, I'm kind of baffled by this. And I'm more baffled by the fact that you did just that in response to my clearly legitimate complaint about that kind of presumptive behavior...
The message sent to Christians is just to shut up or lie about their personal experiences. Otherwise, they will become the cause of conflict, even if they didn't say anything that could be construed as insulting to someone else.
-sj loves kevin spacey
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lexu
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
2/27 12:29am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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solojones posted:
Not at this time, it's late and I've spent about 9 hours today working on a research paper so I'm going to go relax and go to bed now...
In the meantime, maybe you can address the thought I put out there about people jumping to conclusions about what Christians are implying about other people, even when it's clear they're not implying anything at all. I mean, you've shown just how impossible it is for Christians to make any kind of statement about themselves without someone else jumping all over them, assuming they're condemning other people even when they clearly aren't. Honestly, I'm kind of baffled by this. And I'm more baffled by the fact that you did just that in response to my clearly legitimate complaint about that kind of presumptive behavior...
The message sent to Christians is just to shut up or lie about their personal experiences. Otherwise, they will become the cause of conflict, even if they didn't say anything that could be construed as insulting to someone else.
-sj loves kevin spacey
I think the opposite of this, Christians jumping to conclusions, happens a lot more...
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/27 12:30am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/27 12:33am (3 edits total)
Edited By:
harpuah
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solojones posted:
I mean, you've shown just how impossible it is for Christians to make any kind of statement about themselves without someone else jumping all over them.
Here's something... you don't see Suzuki saying, "I'm black, and this is my opinion" I don't say, "well, being native american, I believe this way..."
See what I mean? I don't see how surface things like race and religion (and they are surface things) should play any kind of role in what we're doing here... your belief is just that.. your belief, and therefore very very personal. It's silly to expect people to understand your beliefs.. they're personal.. even if you make them public, people are still not going to fully get it.
I think if we can just post as people who have one huge thing in common... we're all complete dorks who have a love for George Lucas' movies, we'll all be better off.
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/27 1:06am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/27 1:07am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
solojones
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lexu posted:
I think the opposite of this, Christians jumping to conclusions, happens a lot more...
And Lexu, I apologize for any part I have had in that. I admit it happens sometimes. I'm not sure why the apology can't go both ways.
harpuah posted:
Here's something... you don't see Suzuki saying, "I'm black, and this is my opinion" I don't say, "well, being native american, I believe this way..."
First of all, those are completely different things than religion. Those have nothing to do with determining your actions. But people's faiths aren't surface features. They are often deeply held and determine a lot of what they do. So it's a fallacy to try to compare the two. A lot of people *are* their faiths. So asking them to exclude their faiths from everything is essentially just telling them to go away.
You can't just ask people to keep their religion out of it any more than you can ask them to keep anything else that's important to them out of their lives here. It's an integral part of a lot of people's lives, even if you would like to pretend it's not. I don't see why you think that should just not be brought up. Especially when people aren't saying anything about other people's lives, just stating a fact of their own.
Secondly, in the example I gave, did I say the person telling about themselves would necessarily say, "well I'm a Christian, so this is true about me..." No, because it often doesn't happen that way. Personally, a lot of people here know that I'm a Christian, so they make a lot of assumptions about what I must believe even when I don't say a word about my religion. I know that unless the topic is specifically religious, I don't generally bring up the fact that I'm a Christian. All I have to do is respond honestly with a completely non-religious statement like, "no, I don't cheat on tests" (random example, to get away from the sex thing) and some people would inevitably act as though I'd just told them they were horrible people and going to hell for cheating.
That's completely unfair. Especially when I go out of my way to try to respect other people's opinions and to not say things that could be construed as judgmental. If there's no problem, I don't see why some people have to create one. Yes, I'm a Christian. Yes, that determines my morals. No, it doesn't determine yours and I don't expect it to or act like it does. So why unnecessarily pretend that there is a tension there which frankly doesn't exist most the time?
-sj loves kevin spacey
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/27 1:41am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/27 1:47am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
harpuah
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Way to take the very first semi tongue in cheek part of my post to heart, and completely miss the point.
solojones posted:
Yes, I'm a Christian. Yes, that determines my morals. No, it doesn't determine yours and I don't expect it to or act like it does. So why unnecessarily pretend that there is a tension there which frankly doesn't exist most the time?
Um... I didn't bring any of this religious discussion up.. this thread was stemmed from the posts of some people.. the thread topic didn't get pulled out of thin air.
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/27 1:46am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/27 1:46am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
harpuah
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double post
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lexu
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
2/27 2:26am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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solojones posted:
lexu posted:
I think the opposite of this, Christians jumping to conclusions, happens a lot more...
And Lexu, I apologize for any part I have had in that. I admit it happens sometimes. I'm not sure why the apology can't go both ways.
I didn't mean to single you out in any way there. I just meant in general.
I've never personally felt like any religious people on the boards were looking down at me because didn't follow the same set of values. I've heard other people say they felt that way, but I do think they were jumping to conclusions in most cases.
I think going both ways we have to remember that just because it's a personal issue doesn't mean that a disagreement about it is itself personal.
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we don't always want what's right
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ObiWan506
Title: JC Head Admin:
Currently away
Registered:
Aug '03
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Date Posted:
2/27 5:01am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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Souderwan posted:
ObiWan506 posted:
Is there a difference between a statement like "Christians are conservative idiots who are blind to their own morals" and a statement like "You, as a Christian, are blind, offensive and just dumb"? One is a general attack on a group and one is an attack on an individual. Would it not be easy to say that any attack on a person is considered inappropriate but attacks on a general group are allowed, albeit reluctantly?
Or what about using the 'respect line'? Statements are deemed inappropriate if deemed disrespectful to either an individual or a group of individuals. What about that? 'Course, the problem with that is respect is a hard thing to enforce in the JCC because if you do it to one thing you have to do it to everything else.
I'm about crash, but I wanted to respond to this. Respect is like pornography. You know it when you see it. If someone posted "blacks are stupid", you'd probably edit it out, no? Substitute Christians/Muslims/Jews/Mormons/Buddhists/Atheists/Agnostics/whatever for blacks and it becomes more acceptable? Disrespect is disrespect. Now if the policy is to be a lot more tolerant of blatant disrespect depending on the group that's being disrespected or the topic that's being discussed, I can live with that. It would answer the question of the thread and I think we can move on. If that's not the policy you want to employ, then I think you have to acknowledge that there's a problem.
First of all, you don't have to start your post with a declaration of your favorite movie. Okay, fine, you're about Crash, we get it.
Secondly, and more seriously to the point, why not do that? Why not create some sort of blanket respect rule that covers all groups, making the way that we measure infractions is if something crosses that line of respect? Respect being anything that are the qualities of politeness, courtesy and civility. If users can't have those qualities when talking about something, why are they talking about it at all? Christians aside, I think this is the problem that leads to most of the arguments on the JCC anyway. Maybe a more dynamic approach to this root problem?
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ApolloSmileGirl
Registered:
Jun '04
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Date Posted:
2/27 5:08am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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Well, theres a way to express your opinion without deliberately and blatantly trying to offend those that believe in something that you don't. It's not cool, nor should it be accepted to intentionally offend someone for the sake of doing it. However, you should still be able to express your opinion in a discussion, without having to censor your thoughts(within reason) just to spare the feelings of people that you may offend.
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/27 5:39am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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I'm just a bit worried about the direction all of this (this whole forum) is heading in. What I'm seeing is a request for stricter crackdowns and censorship of opinion. I don't see this heading in a positive direction. I have to be honest here.
I really think we can come to some sort of positive agreements without having to steralize the JCC.
I've seen some great suggestions.. The Newleywed game being one of them... I'm all for that kind of discussion, but I'm seeing a whole lot more negativity than productivity.
Not trying to rile anybody up here. This is honestly what I'm seeing, and it does worry me a bit.
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Spiderfan
Registered:
Mar '04
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Date Posted:
2/27 6:20am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/27 6:21am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Spiderfan
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Its not censorship of opinion thats being requested though at least not from what I am reading. I don't think anyone wants that. Its the unabashed or thinly veiled attacks on beliefs, the outright dismissal of ideas simply because they differ and the seemingly little action being taken on the issue. I think people here are not trying to encourage censorship...that would be entirely hypocritical and counter productive, but rather be allowed to express their ideas and beliefs without fear of undue hostility or attacks. I don't think thats a lot to ask.
I want to reiterate a point I made earlier, and something I think many on the JCC should learn from: A differing idea, belief, opinion is not, of itself, an attack on your own, nor should it be taken so.
On the issue of productivity, the way I see it...in order for us to become productive in finding solutions we have to be aware of the problems. This topic has been good at flushing out several issues, albeit in a slightly heated way.
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