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Topic:
Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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TwiLekJedi
Title: Classic Trilogy & YJCC Manager
Registered:
Jun '01
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Date Posted:
2/27 7:48am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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I've always agreed with the policy to distinguish between comments on the (in this case) religion itself and users who are following it. I do admit that I could not disprove that we have let comments slide that were closer to the latter than the former. Partly I think it's because our Master Debaters try their hardest to be as clever as possible about it, heavily blurring the line between them. When does it become personal? "Christians"? "Anyone who believes X"?
Also, tolerance and respect are overrated wishful thinking. The line in the TOS about being respectful of other people's opinions and beliefs applies to the opinions and belief they spell out in their posts, not the system they're based on.
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rhonderoo
Title:
Former Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/27 8:14am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/27 11:34am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
rhonderoo
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I agree, Senny. We have to hold people to the TOS, first, but I've seen a lot of folks over the years I've been admin or mod say that we should respect each other more. It's definitely a fine line.
lexu posted:
I think it's obvious that saying all people in a particular group are idiots is inflammatory and unnecessary. I don't think anyone would promote that as being "okay." The question we should ask, rather, is whether there's a difference between saying "I think believing in a supreme deity is foolish," and "Those of you who believe in a supreme deity are foolish."
This is kind of where I try to draw the line at modding, especially when I'm knee deep in trying to keep lively debate alive, but not let people act like jackasses, but it's hard to get across to those being modded sometimes and even my fellow mods and those in Comms.
I think the former is acceptable (something to watch in a thread, for sure), but the latter should recieve at least a warning.
I will say that a lot of this stems from something Dani said earlier. The few we have that LOVE to push JCCer's buttons. Whether it be on Christianity or religion, conservatism, liberalism, women's issues, homosexuality, etc.
I think we can all name a one or two conservative posters that do it, one or two liberals, one or two athiests, etc.
When I see that, I tend to get out the bold, because it's intentionally trying rile people up. I will say, though, Kristie that this may just mean more attention from the mods and not as much reform as you're fearing. At the end of they day, a lot of this stuff is not what you say, but how you say it.
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DT421  And the hot chick is really the sister of the good guy, but they don't know it, and they kiss. Which is kind of messed up. I mean, what if they had done it instead of just kissed?
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
2/27 8:26am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/27 8:28am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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I'm an atheist, part of a group that comprises 1.6% of the population, although we don't necessarily socialize with each other.
I've gotten into atheist/theism debates and anti-Christianity debates with people here in the past, and I deeply, deeply regret the tone that I've taken in many of those debates. I made a conscious choice to change and tamp down on that vitriol, because in real life I don't really feel that vitriol at all, having grown up in the mainline protestant traditions.
In any case, one of the reasons people converse online is to have discussions they can't have in person, and religion is one of those topics that people can almost never discuss in person with someone who does not already share their beliefs.
I understand that people don't like being attacked. It's also important to understand that non-religious viewpoints are minority viewpoints in the U.S. 78% of the population is Christian. If the non-religious or openly anti-religious have a disproportionate voice in the JCC, then you get to decide as a community what to do about it.
However, I urge tolerance and turning the other cheek. I agree very much with harpuah's point of view:
I'm just a bit worried about the direction all of this (this whole forum) is heading in. What I'm seeing is a request for stricter crackdowns and censorship of opinion. I don't see this heading in a positive direction. I have to be honest here.
I really think we can come to some sort of positive agreements without having to sterilize the JCC.
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/27 9:39am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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Rhonda, more attention from mods is a non issue for me. Like I said in another thread, if I go over the line, of course I'll be edited. I take full responsibility for my actions, and always will.
I was just fearing another rule overhaul, and I'm relieved that isn't happening. 
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There is more stupidity than hydrogen in the universe, and it has a longer shelf life.
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moosemousse
Title: CR - FF:UK South
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
2/27 9:56am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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Going back to what ObiWan506 said:
ObiWan506 posted:
Is there a difference between a statement like "Christians are conservative idiots who are blind to their own morals" and a statement like "You, as a Christian, are blind, offensive and just dumb"?
There is a huge difference between the two statements, the first is making an assumption about all Christians which just isn't true, for example I'm a very liberal Christian who's live and let live, the other is possibly dragging in religion when it doesn't need to be.
Abstinence was mentioned earlier in the thread and it does seem to me that there are those who think it's a bad thing and will attack those who say otherwise. It's not just a Christian thing and yet it seems that a few do seem to see it that way and will respond negatively.
On the subject of religious social thread I think that that's a good idea, in theory. If they were started on a request basis, ie someone PMing a mod saying 'can we have a social thread for this religion' then there wouldn't be a lot of social threads starting up, it'd most likely be the major religions and a few others that have a few followers here. If there aren't any followers who actually post on these boards then a social thread isn't needed, it would just be started and then it'd die. There's also the thing about it being a safe space where religious views can be discussed without being ridiculed.
I think a large part of the problem is the way things are said. You might not agree with someone but saying 'I disagree' is better than saying 'you're wrong'.
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Vader's Mousedroid Society Fanfic links in my bio My fan art: http://boards.theforce.net/fan_art/b10020/26961879/ when infected with Small Child the victim continues to swell for nine months before the infection can be safely removed
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rhonderoo
Title:
Former Head Admin
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
2/27 11:41am
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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moosemousse posted:
I think a large part of the problem is the way things are said. You might not agree with someone but saying 'I disagree' is better than saying 'you're wrong'.
Absolutely. And this comes back to asking people to have a little more respect with those with differing views. On anything. I think that given the nature of our community, and how even though it's largely Christian, we're a bit of a melting pot. Not only that, a melting pot of ages, maturity, levels of education, etc. AND, we have the same issues that any larger body of people do, a lot of people just want to be heard, or be accepted, or be funny...
and sometimes that translates to less tolerant behavior. Whether it's to be funny, or because some people are more stubborn when it comes to their views, or some are more outspoken and (dare I say this?) sometimes arrogant in their views...whatever the reason, I think we mods need to pay closer attention to it and go out of our way to get involved in those discussions. Yes, they are a pain, because it takes heavy moderation sometimes, but if we're going to keep serious discussion in JCC (which we will as long as I'm around) we'll have to pay attention to it.
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DT421 And the hot chick is really the sister of the good guy, but they don't know it, and they kiss. Which is kind of messed up. I mean, what if they had done it instead of just kissed?
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/27 2:35pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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Harps, frankly I didn't bring up the issues at all. I used an issue in an example, but it was pertaining to a problem Christians encounter with people presuming that the mere statement of their beliefs is an attack on other people. Instead you for some reason focused on the subject of the example and made presumptions about what I was saying... which is exactly what I was bemoaning. Everyone noticed. I'm not sure why you can't seem to acknowledge that (obviously, from your reaction) this sort of thing does happen and is unnecessary and negative for the community.
Jabbadabado, while I appreciate that in the general population the number of professed Christians is high and professed atheists or agnostics is low, I know those proportions are completely different here. The census poll on this subject shows 45% of users are Christians, 32% are nonreligious/atheist/agnostic. I think a poll of just JCC users would show similar results, if not higher numbers for the latter. I think this has to do with what you said, with the internet allowing people to voice views they might not otherwise feel comfortable doing.
I think actually enforcing the rules on the books about not flaming other people for any kind of belief system would be helpful. It is possible to disagree without attacking a person, or a group of people, with name-calling and excessive vitriol.
-sj loves kevin spacey
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6 x 9 = 42 Proud member of the Colbert Nation  Obi-Wan Kenobi and Obi-Wan Kenobi in Ghost Ship Executor All Hail Cliegg's Blue Leg!
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Jabbadabbado
Title: Senate Floor Moderator
Registered:
Mar '99
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Date Posted:
2/27 2:54pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/27 2:57pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jabbadabbado
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I think actually enforcing the rules on the books about not flaming other people for any kind of belief system would be helpful.
That sums it up as far as I'm concerned. No additional rules or censorship is required other than fair and active enforcement of existing JC policy.
2), 3) and 4) on the chalkboard cover this adequately. 5) in my view is an excessive statement of something that would flow naturally from the previous 3 points.
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harpuah
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
2/27 3:02pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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Rachel (hope you don't mind my calling you that... I feel weird typing out solojones to address you.  ), I've thought about our conversation a few times during today, and I want to apologize for coming on as strongly as I did. I suppose it's the nature of the beast when you're discussing such personal issues... and religion is about as personal as some can get.
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Awesome
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
2/27 3:22pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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I agree with what's been said. Enforce the rules we have, and encourage users to be respectful of each other. That's all we can do, really.
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"When you see me, what do you see?
I see a big bushy beard and hair."
- Stephen Colbert discussing his inabilit to "see" race, with Cornel West
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
2/27 4:04pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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Jabbadabbado posted:
I think actually enforcing the rules on the books about not flaming other people for any kind of belief system would be helpful.
That sums it up as far as I'm concerned. No additional rules or censorship is required other than fair and active enforcement of existing JC policy.
2), 3) and 4) on the chalkboard cover this adequately. 5) in my view is an excessive statement of something that would flow naturally from the previous 3 points.
This is also my feeling. I don't think we've discussed a single thing in any thread so far that requires new rules. All that is required is that moderators enforce the rules in place. I didn't bring up this discussion point in the hopes of generating new rules--I think the rules are fine as it is. I brought it up in the hopes of getting exactly where we are--acknowledging that we let a fair portion of discussions degrade into slightly contained flaming.
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"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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solojones
Registered:
Sep '00
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Date Posted:
2/27 4:09pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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harpuah posted:
Rachel (hope you don't mind my calling you that... I feel weird typing out solojones to address you. ),
Call away. If it's in someone's profile I figure it's fair game. Hence, I might refer to Prenn as Awesome
[quote]I've thought about our conversation a few times during today, and I want to apologize for coming on as strongly as I did. I suppose it's the nature of the beast when you're discussing such personal issues... and religion is about as personal as some can get. [/quote]
Accepted. Honestly the last thing I want to do is create conflict over issues here. I just want to try to bring some perspective. And honestly it is very hard sometimes to just be yourself when other people think it's somehow an attack on them. All I ask is that people perhaps try to remember that just because Christians are there doesn't mean they're trying to do anything but be themselves, just like everyone else.
-sj loves kevin spacey
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6 x 9 = 42 Proud member of the Colbert Nation Obi-Wan Kenobi and Obi-Wan Kenobi in Ghost Ship Executor All Hail Cliegg's Blue Leg!
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lexu
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
2/27 5:13pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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I think the mods already do a pretty good job of enforcing the rules on this topic. More frequently posting those in-thread reminders to keep things as explicitly impersonal as possible wouldn't hurt.
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just when you feel it, you don't
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Souderwan
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
2/27 5:38pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
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An in-thread reminder, or an edit where warranted (I won't say it doesn't happen. I just haven't seen it in the cases that I've observed), would go a long way to making conversations in serious threads more palatable to all. The kinds of things I'm talking about generally don't gall me, personally. However, I have had more than a few people tell me that they avoid those "serious threads" like the plague because they just turn into low-grade flaming and baiting threads. That's hardly always true, but the perception didn't come from nowhere. (does that count as a double-negative?)
-----signature-----
"When we hurt each other we should write it down in the sand,
so the winds of forgiveness can make it go away for good. When
we help each other we should chisel it in stone, lest we never
forget the love of a friend." ~Godefroy
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MASTERPRENN
Title: JCC Man.
Awesome
Registered:
Dec '05
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Date Posted:
2/27 5:44pm
Subject:
RE: Is hostility to Christianity tolerated?
- Date Edited:
2/27 5:59pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
MASTERPRENN
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solojones posted:
Call away. If it's in someone's profile I figure it's fair game. Hence, I might refer to Prenn as Awesome
harpuah posted:
I've thought about our conversation a few times during today, and I want to apologize for coming on as strongly as I did. I suppose it's the nature of the beast when you're discussing such personal issues... and religion is about as personal as some can get.
Accepted. Honestly the last thing I want to do is create conflict over issues here. I just want to try to bring some perspective. And honestly it is very hard sometimes to just be yourself when other people think it's somehow an attack on them. All I ask is that people perhaps try to remember that just because Christians are there doesn't mean they're trying to do anything but be themselves, just like everyone else.
-sj loves kevin spacey
See, if we had more of this going on in the religious threads, it'd be great. More people agreeing, more people calling me Awesome...I think it's a win-win.
Seriously though, I think the solution to this lies in the users like us, who understand things like this, being as respectful and thoughtful as possible. I think that if one side of the argument refuses to go down the path of baiting and takes the higher ground, it will be harder for the other party to go down that path as well.
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"When you see me, what do you see?
I see a big bushy beard and hair."
- Stephen Colbert discussing his inabilit to "see" race, with Cornel West
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