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Topic:
A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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Darth_Guy
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 8:36pm
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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Well, there could be a mix of the "Senate thread in YJCC" idea and the adoption idea. A thread (in the JCC, of course) informing JCC'ers of the program would be helpful.
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Obi-Wan McCartney
Registered:
Aug '99
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 8:48pm
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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I post in the YJCC almost never. I post in the Senate almost exclusively, sometimes in the Ampetheater.
However, I am weary of forcing the YJCC in any way. If they want to have a more serious discussion let them! They're animals anyway, it will soon dissolve into *** and !!!! jokes. 
More later.
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Darth Mischievous
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 9:14pm
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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Hello all.
Many good points have been made here.
First, I agree with the expressed sentiment that integration is not a good idea. The forums, while on the same message board, have a different milieu.
To compare the YJCC to the Senate in discussing issues is akin to comparing The Daily Show to one of the 24-hour news networks. In my tenure in these forums, there always has been a tendency for any issue discussed in the YJCC to evolve into creative attempts by members at witty commentary with attempts at humor to gain a reaction from other members or simple statements of belief without the desire for an in-depth defense of a position.
The Senate has always been a place of discussion involving those who wish to go into detail about issues in a substantive sense. That's why the Forum came into existence.
Generally, interest in the Senate peaks during types of political acuity: i.e., elections, major world events, etc.
More 'advertising' for the Senate coupled with a welcoming attitude from Senate members can be an effective means of increasing discussion. Senate threads are often very detailed, where required reading for rebuttal can be a turn-off for some YJCC members more interested in a social-type witty thread for entertainment purposes.
Such an 'advertising' example: The Senate Forum: Your 2006 Election Headquarters thread in the YJCC can not only advertise for the Senate, but reduce the plethora of threads that arise in the YJCC during such busy political times.
The Senate can open up a thread specifically addressing political humor, if that would also entice YJCC members to increase their exposure. Most YJCCers look for humorous content or everyday life or entertainment discussion issues, and they occasionally wish to discuss issues as evidenced by the 'Atheism' thread. If such mannerisms extended to serious discussion in such a forum as The Senate, there is a tendency for baiting and other such things to occur. However, that does not mean that witty humor isn't appreciated in the Senate.
To integrate the forums fully renders their differences inconsequential. The Senate will always be a venue for those seeking a more substantive discussion forum in terms of the serious issues of the day.
The main gist of my point is that there are expectations in the Senate that can be daunting to regular YJCC members. Such expectations are reasonable for a discussion forum as The Senate.
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AnakinsGirl
Registered:
Nov '01
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 10:06pm
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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I really think some sort of advertising/recruiting campaign would be really cool. We (as in the powers that be) should do it.
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Captain_Typho
Registered:
Jul '03
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 10:33pm
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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Hey guys, I just want to let you all know that I've been keeping up with what's being said here but I've not had time to write out my response yet due to a new semester beginning etc. I do have a few comments to make and hopefully I can get an hour or so tomorrow or the next day to do it.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 10:50pm
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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The promotion aspect is something I brought up in MS, and it went down well though for the life of me I have no idea how to offer to host the travelling social thread (for example), which would be a good introduction.
As for Hawk's showcase idea, I like it. How exactly would you go about this, avoiding the problems of having Senate regulars dominating the thread? Could you give us some sort of rough breakdown of what you'd envision it containing?
E_S
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Darth Mischievous
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 11:03pm
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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A showcase thread is advertising at its core, which has been lauded as an idea here.
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MariahJSkywalker
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/10/06 11:15pm
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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I post in the JCC mainly for a laugh. Most JCCers don't really participate in the more serious threads, it almost always the same people posting. Sometimes posters come in and post their opinions(Sometimes as a fact) and don't even bother to back up their statements, or even refuse to. Then come the posters who post the same old poop jokes, or offensive jokes. I still believe there are JCCers who would like a serious discussion, but are afraid to leave their comfort zones. Quite frankly I believe political abd religious thread should be locked and redirected and just leave current events in the JCC.
PS
can we allow flaming in the Senate? PLEASE?
I'm thinkin' more of a single thread for it
Let's not open up that can of worms now. If that was allowed, how long before JCCers will be asking for a silimar thread?
MariahJ, you post occationally. Do you do any lurking? Do you have opinions you've not expressed in a thread? If so, why? I see you alla time in the YJCC, yet only occationally in The Senate.
I lurk occasionally, I like to read posts in the Senate. I don't always post when I venture into the Senate, mostly because what I have to say has already been said and more eloquently.
I agree with Mischievous's idea for a political humor thread, most JCC threads are humor. So if they go into Senate they'll have a thread to which to keep bringing them back and maybe check out other threads. And trying to make the Senate a more welcoming place would also help.
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gabe
Title: Administrator Emeritus
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 1:05am
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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Showcasing and promoting and whatnot doesn't take care of the problem at hand. People are well aware of the Senate's existance, and know what it has to offer. They simply choose not to participate in the discussion it offers. The goal is to make the forum more appealing, not to make people more aware of it. Some promotion on specific discussion wouldn't hurt, but as far as attracting people on a more social level, I still say bringing the moving social thread to Senate is our best bet.
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MariahJSkywalker
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 1:29am
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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That sounds like a good idea, but still even the traveling social thread failed in the JCC.
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many people here should be fixed, but that's another story.-KW Smut Peddlin' Squaw of the Knights of the 3SA/JCC Sarcasm Table R.I.P. Snowie
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HawkNC
Title: FanForce RSA
Oceania
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 4:38am
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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In a thread as busy as JCC, I think it simply got lost - the age of the social thread as king passed a while ago, and JCCers seem to be happy with the balance we have right now. Moving it through the Senate certainly won't hurt.
As for making the Senate more appealing, that's a job for both the mods and regulars alike. Clearly there is a very strong notion that you need a certain level of either intelligence or arrogance to post there, and the sheer size of the threads seems to dissuade people from joining in the conversations. Something should perhaps be done to make the Senate appear more "newbie friendly" than it currently is, but as I'm not really a Senate regular (only in the lurking sense), I'm not too qualified to say what the best solution is.
Ender, my thread idea would basically follow the rules of the Senate. I'd like it to be a discussion on a topic that everyone can get involved in (something not too politicised, preferably, and doesn't require intimate or local knowledge to participate) and I would certainly appreciate a couple of people who post in both the Senate and JCC to help get it off the ground. However, the main thrust is to allow the JCC regulars to get their feet wet in it, following the rules of the Senate forum. To that end I'd want to keep a close eye on it, perhaps sending a reminder PM to Senate regulars who get a little too over-enthusiastic in there that it's not for them. I wouldn't want any opinion to not be allowed in there, but I'd like to keep it as open as possible and it's very easy for these topics to get sidetracked into two or three people arguing a specific point for pages and pages.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 4:47am
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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I think that you're right and wrong, gabe; maybe if the root of the problem is perception, then addressing the issues people percieve to be right/wrong with the Senate then promoting the Senate might be a good idea...
E+S
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epic
Title: ex mod / rsa
Forum Feud Winner
Registered:
Jul '99
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 4:58am
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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i see KK's point about the misconception that Senate posts need to be essay length, etc. perhaps i was exaggerating to a degree. i don't necessarily think that that is the conception of the entire forum, however, to jcc people -- it comes down to: what one can actually discuss in the Senate and who and how many people, be they jcc regulars or not, are interested in that kind of discussion.
look at the demographics of this entire message board: the large percentage are interested in Star Wars discussion, and its offshoots (FanFilm, FanFiction, etc) -- the other, and there is obviously cross over, are involved in Community. my point is it's already a large divide. the Senate is thus catering for a demographic even more refined because, unlike the JCC -- where you can talk about, within the TOS, basically anything and everything, the Senate can only cover topics of a more 'serious' nature -- politics, religion, environment, sociology, philosophy... which are broad, yes, to a degree, but are necessarily constrained. to a large degree by:
a) a large percentage of the populace of this entire message board (and i'm unsure of the exact figures) being around 16-22ish thus minimising interest in these type subjects
b) the fact a lot of the topics contained within these broad groups have been already previously discussed by previous generations. this means that, firstly, people who have already discussed such things won't really be bothered to do so again and secondly, new people entering the forum will be intimidated by the threads, feel like they've got nothing left to add -- but most importantly, have no chance to build an 'active' discussion with their current peers.
my solutions are:
1. to firstly accept that the Senate will most likely never be the flourishing, vibrant forum, with constant activity and new users streaming in (nor will it be like the Senate when it initially began -- this occurs with new forums -- i would hasten to bet a similar 'drop off' will occur with the newly formed SciFi forums) and to not, in fact, be upset about this. realising that the demographics of this message board are such that whatever intelligent, reasoned discussion and debate that does occur in this forum is something to be proud of in and of itself.
2. to perhaps re-begin age-old discussions that could be re-discussed with a 'new' populace that may see them and think they can contribute. (you could link to the previous discussion if you wanted)
3. (i'm not sure if the current mods still do this) let a bit more debate occur-- it is impossible to debate a subject without bringing up, what you think, are faults in the other persons argument. the Senate should be given a bit more leeway, users should be able to get their hands a bit more dirty, so to speak, and to be given a bit more respect... respect to be able to take criticism, to make their points but points backed up with a rationalle -- to not let things delve into a flame war, which can occur in the jcc given the different type of populace.
4. mods: perhaps come up with a good 10-20 pre-selected topics, ranging from sociology, philosophy, medical, relationships, religion, politics, whatever (perhaps try and get away from the dominant political and religious threads) that you can start, to kickstart discussions, say, once a week. you could eve have, say, a 'philosophy month' whereby you create x philosophy related threads, about x topics (but make them specfific, or somehow related to the individual (ie: not just -- Logic. let's discuss Logic.) but create a situation whereby the philosophical aspect of Logic comes into play in a given situation from life, or from an individuals perspective, etc), then a 'socialogy month', and even say a 'sports month' even, and so on. you could encourage other users to create their own related threads (ie not just restricted to the mods) but also would not discourage the general running of the rest of the forum and the other topics at hand.
5. whenever there is a current event worthy of discussion, link both the Senate and JCC threads (as has already been mentioned).
i do not believe we should, or need to constrain the amount of 'serious' threads in the JCC to achieve the aims of the Senate. the JCC goes through stages of its own -- there may be a serious thread here or there now, there may be none for weeks, etc. linkage will help. in fact, keeping what serious threads that do appear in the JCC can actually benefit the Senate in that, once they inevitably filter away, those involved perhaps will feel a thirst to carry on such related discussion... and they may be more inclined to visit the Senate.
the major thing with the Senate is that it is generally very religious and politically minded -- and a lot of people can't be bothered with these sort of things all that much, or, not to the extend to discuss them to a large degree -- you can try and bring new topics into the foreground (malkie's thread on obesity, for example, to me, was interested because of the subject material actually being different) -- but even if so, that's fine -- i think one needs to accept the Senate for what it is, to a large extent. that doesn't mean you can't come up with ways to improve it, of course, but not to get too carried away with the process of doing so.
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Kimball_Kinnison
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 6:06am
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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I only have a few minutes (just got in to work), but I want to reply to a couple of points.epic posted:
to firstly accept that the Senate will most likely never be the flourishing, vibrant forum, with constant activity and new users streaming in (nor will it be like the Senate when it initially began -- this occurs with new forums -- i would hasten to bet a similar 'drop off' will occur with the newly formed SciFi forums) and to not, in fact, be upset about this. realising that the demographics of this message board are such that whatever intelligent, reasoned discussion and debate that does occur in this forum is something to be proud of in and of itself.
Those are valid points, but at the same time, the Senate is over 4 years old, and a lot of the drop off is a lot more recent than can be explained by the novelty of a new forum dying off.
The thing is that the Senate has been vibrant in the past, with a constant inflow, and not just back when it was fairly new. For a while, mods from several other forums (and the JCC in particular) encouraged users to go to the Senate for serious political and social discussions (not to mention all religious discussions). That provided a small, but constant, influx of new users.
It was never the level of influx that, for example, the JCC gets, nor is anyone trying to insist that the Senate needs that level of influx. However, it does need some level of influx in order to remain a healthy forum, and actions that decrease that influx need to be carefully examined.
epic posted:
(i'm not sure if the current mods still do this) let a bit more debate occur -- it is impossible to debate a subject without bringing up, what you think, are faults in the other persons argument. the Senate should be given a bit more leeway, users should be able to get their hands a bit more dirty, so to speak, and to be given a bit more respect... respect to be able to take criticism, to make their points but points backed up with a rationalle -- to not let things delve into a flame war, which can occur in the jcc given the different type of populace.
At the same time, there are some forms of "bringing up faults" that simply aren't appropriate. In religious threads that are devoted to a specific religion (such as the Catholicism, Mormonism, or many Islam threads), users who come into the thread for the purpose of attacking the religious beliefs of others are trolling. Those threads simply don't work that well as major debates (and you can look at the many religion forums out there that have constant flame wars because of that very point).
Similarly, labelling others with inflammatory terms (such as "bigot", one of the policies that many people complained about) doesn't really bring out faults in another's arguments. As I mentioned earlier (referring to morons), calling a bigot a bigot is still a flame, even if they really are a bigot. Flaming someone isn't based on whether the statement is true or not, but on the intent behind the statement and the likely responses to it. When you call someone a bigot, you are most likely trying to get a rise out of them. When there are other ways to express yourself that don't provoke those reactions, it makes sense from a moderating standpoint to limit the more problematic comments.
epic posted:
that doesn't mean you can't come up with ways to improve it, of course, but not to get too carried away with the process of doing so.
When I was a moderator, one of the big points of contention about the expansion of serious discussion in the JCC was that the Senate mods were not contacted about it at all. The initial thread in the JCC mod private forum was started in late July, but it wasn't until early December that any Senate mods were involved in the discussion. The JCC mods decided on their own to start encouraging more growth in an area that already had more of a dedicated forum.
Kimball Kinnison
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Why, Kimball... I didn't know you had it in you.- KW
I think that Kimball just made a joke, and a funny joke at that.- Raven
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?
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HawkNC
Title: FanForce RSA
Oceania
Registered:
Oct '01
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Date Posted:
1/11/06 6:18am
Subject:
RE: A discussion on the differences between YJCC and the Senate
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Aside from that being an unfair representation of JCC mods, it's irrelevant to the discussion. We never started that thread with the intent of encroaching on Senate territory, only to stop the JCC from degenerating into mindless rubbish. We worked on the principle that serious discussion can exist in both forums in different ways, a principle which I still believe in. As much as I appreciate Mr44's attempt to illustrate a point (I'll admit, I missed it at first as well), it was exaggerated and took what we were trying to do out of proportion.
If we're done discussing private board threads, however, we should get back on topic.
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