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Topic:
Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
1/20/07 9:55am
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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sithreaper posted:
Anyone who thinks that crippled Vader could take his pre-injured self in a fight is delusional.
Then call me delusional. There was me thinking that OT Vader wasn't full of hot air about his previous incarnation being "but a learner" in comparison to where he was by the time of ANH. Oh well. I mean, he's got loads of other reasons to cite the power of the dark side in that case, hasn't he? Wait a minute...
The "Vader is a weakling" culture that has sprung up ever since Lucas made his "200% to 80% of the Emperor" comments is insane. He was referring to *raw* power in the Force, in other words: potential.
RotS Anakin had barely scratched the surface of his potential. Vader has near-as-dammit fully mastered what remains of his, which, at 80% of the Emperor, is pretty darn freakin' high.
Vader > Anakin.
Vader's not what he could have been, but he's still - overall - superior than he was. Sure, he'll miss those occasional flashes of pure brilliance, and sure pre-suit Anakin wouldn't not stand a chance, but Vader would win the majority of the encounters. What people are forgetting is that Vader has some down points, for sure, but he's essentially *General Grevious with the Force*.
When GL does remake the OT (as we all know he will), you can bet your little cotton socks that Vader will be one fast-moving mean BAMF.
If you want reasons for how Luke defeated Vader, there are a couple:
1) Vader didn't want to fight Luke at all. "There is no conflict" was a lie.
2) Luke is likely more talented than even Anakin was. That was the situation in Shadows of the Empire, and Lucas has not said anything to contradict it.
Vader is a Sith Lord with over three decades experience in the Force. Of course he trumps RotS Anakin, with his measly thirteen years. Now, had Anakin had say - another five years - we'd be talking about a different outcome. Without being injured, he'd have surpassed where Vader was by ANH in a fraction of the time... but that doesn't make him *better* than the Vader of ANH.
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Koohii
Title: Games: RPG d6 GM
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
1/20/07 12:11pm
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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As far as the cybernetics go...
You have the resources of the galactic empire at your disposal.
They have developed cybernetics that are indistinguishable from the real thing, and they have developed some that look, well cyborgy. They have some that barely copy the function of the original limbs or whatnot, and some that are massively more powerful than human norm. The only limitation in combining these two factors is how much you're willing to pay and availability.
What do you think Vader is going to buy?
I'm thinking the less-bulky, strongest function, best neuro-relay response time. It's not like anyone is going to be auditing his medical accounts for imperial government employees and saying "You know, you could have saved the imperial tax payers over 100,000 credits by going with after-market discount cybernetic limbs. Did you even think of the people when you made these extravagant purchases, Mr. Vader?"
"LORD Vader!"
Suddenly "Darth Vader's Employee Evaluation" by Three Dead Trolls in a Baggie is going through my head again...
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HansHunkyChest
Registered:
Oct '03
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Date Posted:
1/21/07 2:39am
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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It seems some niggling details are being forgotten.
1.) The current D20 rules are not meant to roll epic characters like Anakin and Luke Skywalker. They're naturally unbalanced characters because their role in the GFFA is dictated by things other than RP rules (plot, storyline, etc.). If you need them to have megapowers just story tell them as having megapowers, don't roll them. Just say "Anakin needed to beat opponent X, so he did" and move on with the story if beating opponent X helps it move on.
2.) Anakin was full of himself. He had a lot of force potential but had actualized only a fraction of that. In AotC he bragged about being as good a swordsman as Yoda only to have Dooku slice his arm off. In RotS he was still pretty full of himself. His mind was also clouded by all sorts of things like falling to the Dark Side, force choking Padmé, betraying the Jedi, far-seeing Padmé die in pain, feeling used by the Jedi and Sideous and the list goes on. He was under the impression he was a bad-ass that couldn't be beat which is a surefire way to open yourself up to being beat.
3.) Stats for canon characters in various sourcebooks vary wildly over the map. You can't really trust any single source for canon characters as each one if going to roll them based on their particular rules or features introduced. The PotJ and TDS books have far different rolls for canon characters than less specific books like the RCRB. The D20 RPG also doesn't support any sort of Epic character status which is really what some canon characters (Yoda, Mace Windu, Palpatine) ought to be.
I've never had good luck adding epic canon characters to my games other than as backdrops. I've run games where the PCs were rallying at a rebel base that Luke was also at. There was a bit of offhand interaction but the characters' story did not directly include Luke. It saved me a lot of trouble worming my way through a lot of canon material and kept the PCs as the heroes of the game. Including canon NPCs can be good for keeping a game decidedly SW themed but I don't think they need to fit neatly into RP templates if something that breaks the rules moves the story along.
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sithreaper
Registered:
Oct '04
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Date Posted:
1/22/07 8:30am
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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Ulicus posted:
sithreaper posted:
Anyone who thinks that crippled Vader could take his pre-injured self in a fight is delusional.
Then call me delusional. There was me thinking that OT Vader wasn't full of hot air about his previous incarnation being "but a learner" in comparison to where he was by the time of ANH. Oh well. I mean, he's got loads of other reasons to cite the power of the dark side in that case, hasn't he? Wait a minute...
The "Vader is a weakling" culture that has sprung up ever since Lucas made his "200% to 80% of the Emperor" comments is insane. He was referring to *raw* power in the Force, in other words: potential.
RotS Anakin had barely scratched the surface of his potential. Vader has near-as-dammit fully mastered what remains of his, which, at 80% of the Emperor, is pretty darn freakin' high.
Vader > Anakin.
Vader's not what he could have been, but he's still - overall - superior than he was. Sure, he'll miss those occasional flashes of pure brilliance, and sure pre-suit Anakin wouldn't not stand a chance, but Vader would win the majority of the encounters. What people are forgetting is that Vader has some down points, for sure, but he's essentially *General Grevious with the Force*.
When GL does remake the OT (as we all know he will), you can bet your little cotton socks that Vader will be one fast-moving mean BAMF.
If you want reasons for how Luke defeated Vader, there are a couple:
1) Vader didn't want to fight Luke at all. "There is no conflict" was a lie.
2) Luke is likely more talented than even Anakin was. That was the situation in Shadows of the Empire, and Lucas has not said anything to contradict it.
Vader is a Sith Lord with over three decades experience in the Force. Of course he trumps RotS Anakin, with his measly thirteen years. Now, had Anakin had say - another five years - we'd be talking about a different outcome. Without being injured, he'd have surpassed where Vader was by ANH in a fraction of the time... but that doesn't make him *better* than the Vader of ANH.
I have no doubt that Vader has learned a lot over the years, he was basically as good as he could be. His mastery of the force is evident in the fact that he no longer requires hand gestures, he has mastered his emotions (hence the “I am the master now” comment to Obi Wan), he has become a cunning foe, a master of intimidation and a formidable military commander.
However lightsaber combat is no longer Vaders bag. He is forced to use brute force & telekinesis to win his battles. Vader obviously can’t increase his own strength through the force because they aren’t his arms. His reflexes will never be that great because his mechanical parts aren’t in psyche, no matter how quick his mechanical limb can move it will never move as quick as a limb guided by the force (watch Kenobi cut Grievouses hands off). Etc ect.
The most telling blow is the ease in which Luke beats him in ROTJ. Luke dominates & dictates the entire duel before getting angry, when he’s mad Luke overpowers Vader with ease.
Simply put Anakin Skywalker in ROTS was far more polished and more powerful then ROTJ Luke.
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Koohii
Title: Games: RPG d6 GM
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
1/22/07 12:52pm
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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Luke was fighting purely defensively in the beginning, and more importantly, Vader didn't want to kill him, just push him over the edge to the Dark Side.
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Jedi_Matt
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
1/22/07 4:28pm
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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Koohii posted:
Luke was fighting purely defensively in the beginning, and more importantly, Vader didn't want to kill him, just push him over the edge to the Dark Side.
It practically mirrors the RotS Dooku fight, which makes it all the more interesting to consider what would have happened had Anakin not killed Dooku...
Anakin took the role of the Count, but with the added conflict of emotions, while Luke took an uncynical-Kenobi view on things, not willing to press the fight until pissed
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Koohii
Title: Games: RPG d6 GM
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
1/23/07 1:27pm
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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Jedi_Matt posted:
Koohii posted:
Luke was fighting purely defensively in the beginning, and more importantly, Vader didn't want to kill him, just push him over the edge to the Dark Side.
It practically mirrors the RotS Dooku fight, which makes it all the more interesting to consider what would have happened had Anakin not killed Dooku...
Anakin took the role of the Count, but with the added conflict of emotions, while Luke took an uncynical-Kenobi view on things, not willing to press the fight until pissed
Yeah, pretty much. I guess. Only saw RotS once.
Saw Pirates of the Caribean: Dead Man's Chest last night
I miss Bob Anderson. Understand he needed a break for health reasons, but these movies would have been sooooooooo much better with his involvement. Less CGI, more real sword-fighting.
Um, getting back on topic...
Dooku would probablly have had an "accident" on the way to the detention block and either escaped or been killed. Paplatine would have expressed regrets about not being able to provide a public trial. If Dooku escaped, either Sideous or Greivous would have killed him.
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
1/24/07 4:22am
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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Koohii posted:
I miss Bob Anderson. Understand he needed a break for health reasons, but these movies would have been sooooooooo much better with his involvement. Less CGI, more real sword-fighting.
I think Nic Gillard in Episode I > Bob Anderson of the OT, or at least what Bob Anderson was instructed to do.
Of course, Bob Anderson TODAY > Nic Gillard.
So yes, I agree. DMC's sword fight was way better than the stuff in Episodes II and III.
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Koohii
Title: Games: RPG d6 GM
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
1/24/07 10:39am
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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Ulicus posted:
I think Nic Gillard in Episode I > Bob Anderson of the OT, or at least what Bob Anderson was instructed to do.
Of course, Bob Anderson TODAY > Nic Gillard.
So yes, I agree. DMC's sword fight was way better than the stuff in Episodes II and III.
Nic Gillard did not have to work with Dave Prowse.
Bob Anderson did not have to rely on wire-fu.
What DMC sword fight? My complaint was that there wasn't one. CotBP had lots of sword fights, but DMC had none (at least none that could be seen).
But we're wandering off-topic...
Perhaps this one is better continued in PM
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Ulicus
Registered:
Jul '05
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Date Posted:
1/24/07 11:35am
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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I completely misunderstood your post. Sorry. 
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Koohii
Title: Games: RPG d6 GM
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
1/24/07 2:38pm
Subject:
RE: Ways to incorporate the Skywalker Bloodline
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 No prob.
Happens all the time to us cranky cantankerous oldsters.
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