JC 73 posted:Errata Force Strike and Force Grip do not incur automatic Dark Side Points, even when used against living targets. Instead, they fall under the provision that using the Force to cause harm is a "common transgression" (page 181 of the revised Star Wars Roleplaying Game rulebook) such that the GM should "seriously consider" giving the character a Dark Side Point. Force Grip should still be considered a dark side skill for all other purposes (for example, meeting prestige class prerequisites or for bonuses gained by tainted or dark characters) because it is extremely aggressive and thus very easily channels negative emotions. This doesn't mean that it's now acceptable to use Force Strike and Force Grip indiscriminately. Using the Force to cause harm is something that a Jedi shouldn't even consider unless that choice would actually cause the least possible harm. For example, Luke apparently used Force Grip on the Gamorrean guards in Jabba's palace, but pulling out his lightsaber and attacking arguably would have been much worse because it would have killed the guards and almost certainly started a huge fight, ultimately leading to considerably more death and destruction. Quietly incapacitating the guards to get by them was probably less harmful than the alternative. Even then, Luke's GM would have been entitled to give him a Dark Side Point for this -- after all, Luke could have used Affect Mind on them, as he did on Bib Fortuna. Exactly how strict you want to be with common transgressions is up to the individual GM.
Pierce Wayne posted:well, it's offical. Luke had other options, and thus would have gained a DSP or two for his actions. Looks like the story's over, eh?
WizO the Hutt [aka Gary M. Sarli posted:]Just confirming what Master Dao Rin said: I did not mean to imply that Luke definitely would have gotten DSPs for using Force Grip in this situation. I said that it would be up to the GM to decide whether it was warranted or not. If I had been Luke's GM in that situation, I probably wouldn't have given him a DSP (under the "common trangression" clause), and here's why: 1) Affect Mind may or may not work -- it requires that you be able to communicate with the target. Luke, after all, doesn't speak Gamorrean, and most Gamorreans don't speak Basic. Sure, it's possible these Gamorreans spoke Huttese (which Luke speaks), but it would be a pretty big assumption on Luke's part that this was the case. (In fact, the stats for the Gammorean guards, RESB p.133, shows that they do not speak Huttese or Basic.) Thus, Luke made the quite reasonable assumption that he could not communicate with the Gamorreans, and therefore Affect Mind wouldn't work on them. (The "False Stimulus" use would work on them, of course, but since they're already aware of him, this would only distract them for 1 round at most, and then they'd raise the alarm.) 2) For this reason, all other social skills (Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate) are also out. 3) He didn't have his lightsaber with him (yes, I suggest that he use it in the column, but that's just for the purpose of illustrating the contrast between possible choices -- after all, most Jedi would have the lightsaber option), so there are only a handful of combat things he can do. Anything that leaves them standing after one round will probably result in a MASSIVE melee, so that means that trying to fight them unarmed (against guys carrying vibroaxes) is probably a bad idea. Force Strike (or even Force Push or Move Object) are probably bad ideas, too, simply because they'd most likely still be conscious. 4) Now, we come to Force Grip. In this case, I'd say he was probably using Force Choke (Jedi Counseling 72) to try to daze them for at least one round (69.3% chance) -- more specifically, he was using Split Force, at a total expenditure of 12 VP (6 VP for Force Choke, doubled for Split Force). If you do the math, there's only a 11.2% chance that they would actually be reduced to 0 or fewer wound points, taking into account all of Luke's possible Force Grip rolls and the likelihood that they fail the save and all possible damage rolls -- even then, the odds of them not making a single Fortitude roll to stabilize are ridiculously small (80% chance to succeed each round, and even on maximum damage they'd have 6 chances to try to make it -- only a 1/15,625 chance of that happening even on max damage). Thus, Luke would have a very small chance of actually killing them. Given that they have no VP, all this damage goes to wounds, triggering a save to avoid knockout (average DC 15), thus giving them an additional 45% chance to be knocked out for 1d4+1 rounds after that. (In fact, each guard would have only a 24.5% chance to not be dazed, knocked out, or rendered unconscious over all possible skill rolls and saves.) Given the guards' reaction, I'd say they were both dazed for one round and knocked out for 1d4+1 rounds, thereby incapacitating them long enough to get inside while having a very low probability that they would be mortally wounded. So, in the end, you have a tactic that 1) has a good probability of incapacitating both guards (57%) or at least one guard (37%) in a single action, and 2) less than a 0.001% chance of actually causing a fatality. I, personally, would agree with Luke's "player" in this case that Force Grip was an acceptable way to get by the guards without causing undo harm, and thus I wouldn't have given a DSP. This is how I would apply the "common transgression" standard, at least in this particular case.
AlejandroBoudri123 posted:In Dark Empire it says tha Palpatine can make a force storm (he can create warm holes for example and he did that in the comic) is that a new use for force storm or an epic power? and if it is force storm why doesn,t palpatine has this feat?
JD Wiker posted:My advice is to pretend you never read that comic book. It's full of over-the-top, superhero-level uses of the Force that just don't translate well to the RPG.
JD Wiker posted:When I was working on The Dark Side Sourcebook, I actually had started working up a "Dark Force Storm" feat. But it was WAY overpowered, so I showed it to Bill Slavicsek (my co-author). Bill told me something that stuck with me for quite a long time: "We don't need to model everything that happens in all of the books and comics. If it doesn't fit the rest of the rules, just leave it out." That's why there's no Dark Force Storm feat, and that's why I suggest you pretend there was no Dark Empire or Dark Empire II comic. JD
JM posted:Besides, I don't recall seeing rules for making star clusters go supernova in my copy of the Tales of the Jedi Companion....
