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Topic:
D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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FlareStorm
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/13/07 1:04am
Subject:
D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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I think we need a thread on this, given what's going on. All are controlled by WOTC, historically SWRPG has been the test bed for the next version of D&D, and I think a lot of gamers follow the whole d20 line, not just D&D. So talk about all of that here.
First argument, Star Wars WOTC has been a test bed for a new version of WOTC's D&D, their biggest product. RCRB came out to test the revisions that would make it into D&D 3.5. Multiple quotes confirm that D&D 4th has used the release of Saga as it's test (no I don't have links, use google).
On one hand, it makes total sense as a company for WOTC to do this. Test crap and put the best stuff in their product that sales.
On the other hand, we are the bottom of the RPG barrel. "Does this work?" "Dunno, throw it in the next SWRPG and wait for feedback." Not fair to the players of SW and, especially, the developers. Pretty much garantees that we are going to get a SW Saga Revised after they put out D&D 4th.
So, start there.
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Kaziel
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
9/13/07 3:13pm
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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I think that one of the reasons they pick Star Wars RPG as their testbed for ideas is simply this: "Star Wars Sells." There is a certain percent of the fanbase that anything released with the Star Wars tag on it is solid gold. So businessmen come to the conclusion that testing stuff out on a market that will sell no matter what is a good idea. From a business perspective, it is a good idea. Unfortunately, those of us who are fans of SW have a tendency to suffer because of it, since at times they will put out bad ideas with the SW name on it.
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Ender_Sai
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Feb '01
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Date Posted:
9/13/07 5:14pm
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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Unfortunately though there's a huge segment of people who buy the RPG books with no intention of playing the game, just so they can obsess over stats and that means there's usually less attempts at honest and constructive feedback. After all, what do you care how VP/WP works if it's unrelated to how many guns an ISD has?
E_S
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In this truth he knew himself to be.
From sinking sands he stepped into light's embrace.
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
9/14/07 3:57pm
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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FlareStorm posted:
On the other hand, we are the bottom of the RPG barrel. "Does this work?" "Dunno, throw it in the next SWRPG and wait for feedback." Not fair to the players of SW and, especially, the developers. Pretty much garantees that we are going to get a SW Saga Revised after they put out D&D 4th.
Since the other alternative is likely to be "no RPG support at all," I'll take it.
Kaziel posted:
I think that one of the reasons they pick Star Wars RPG as their testbed for ideas is simply this: "Star Wars Sells."
I don't think that's true. If the SW logo was worth so much money, it would be a successful RPG in its own right, as opposed to a guinea pig for D&D. SW doesn't necessarily sell, at least not enough to overcome the expense of the licensing fee.
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Moridin
Title: RPG Author
Registered:
Apr '99
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Date Posted:
9/14/07 4:08pm
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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Eh, I didn't feel shafted. If anything, they handed mechanics down to us while designing it and said, "Hey, you want to try this out for Star Wars?" And if it didn't fit, we didn't use it. I really feel like the Saga Edition game benefitted from having R&D staffers passing us notes (even if we didn't know where the notes were coming from per se at the time) rather than leaving it just to the three designers to come up with everything new.
I think Saga Edition is a better game than it would have been without having some of those ideas passed down to us, that's for sure.
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Rodney "Moridin" Thompson RPG Designer Wizards of the Coast SWRPGNetwork - http://www.swrpgnetwork.com
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Koohii
Title: Games: RPG d6 GM
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
9/14/07 4:18pm
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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Well, if I remember correctly (it's been a while, so I freely admit I could be wrong on this), SW was a test for D20 Modern. D20 Modern ended up being a hybrid of D&D 3.0 or SW 3.0.
If anyone should feel shafted, it's WEG for having their SW license pulled right before the Prequels were released, when they'd have had a massive boom to a slowly dying release. But, Lucasfilm marketing was in bed with Hasbro, and Hasbro had purchased WotC, so...
Ah well.
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FlareStorm
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/15/07 1:53am
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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I think WEG died right before that, or at least they dug their own hole that led to it. They tried to make a bunch of other game lines when the CCG market was already hurting RPGs.
They were awesome though. Only source for SW Lore for 10 years and so much stuff is built upon their framework.
PS Someone fix the thread title
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Yuul_Shamar
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
9/15/07 4:35am
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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As far as WEG and WOTC are concerned, I like both systems for different reasons, but as I wish to avoid a multi pronged all out flame war on which is better, which of course would never actually end, i will divert that part of the subject. As for star wars being a testbed, that may be good or bad but either way one thing can fix any problems that crop up from it. DUCTAPE!!! Actually no, what really fixes any problems that us players see in the rules is to make our own modes, aka house rules. you know it to be true. 
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Koohii
Title: Games: RPG d6 GM
Registered:
May '03
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Date Posted:
9/15/07 8:13am
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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Yuul_Shamar posted:
As far as WEG and WOTC are concerned, I like both systems for different reasons, but as I wish to avoid a multi pronged all out flame war on which is better, which of course would never actually end, i will divert that part of the subject. As for star wars being a testbed, that may be good or bad but either way one thing can fix any problems that crop up from it. DUCTAPE!!! Actually no, what really fixes any problems that us players see in the rules is to make our own modes, aka house rules. you know it to be true.
"Today on handy-man corner, I'm going to show you how to repair a Role-playing game using the handy-man's secret weapon: Duct-tape. Since this is kinda geeky, I'm going to have to use some of Harold's books. Eh, He won't mind."
-----signature-----
Create happy mediums: Free prozac to all psychics & Jedi
I'm met 6yo adults and 36yo children
Still working toward Ni-Kyu Go Ju Ryu
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Yuul_Shamar
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
9/15/07 8:49am
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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LOL, nice one koohii!
-----signature-----
"Your power over others only relates to those who fear you. Look into my eyes, fool, and see no fear."-Darth Shadra, in response to the dread lord Delano
Most Eager Newbie - Spring RPF awards 2008
Most Eager GSE Player!
Sith Lord! Watch out!
John 3:16
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FlareStorm
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/15/07 9:13am
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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I don't think you'd get any flames comparing D20/D6. Many many (most?) D20ers have fond experiences with it. Many use it's material. It did have the best fluff text.
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Yuul_Shamar
Registered:
Nov '04
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Date Posted:
9/15/07 9:34am
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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True, but i remember an occasion that i saw such a fight going on i just cant remember where...
-----signature-----
"Your power over others only relates to those who fear you. Look into my eyes, fool, and see no fear."-Darth Shadra, in response to the dread lord Delano
Most Eager Newbie - Spring RPF awards 2008
Most Eager GSE Player!
Sith Lord! Watch out!
John 3:16
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FlareStorm
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/15/07 9:49am
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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Has anyone actually bought a WOTC besides Saga recently? I haven't forever, but I found Expedition to the Demonweb Pits on a used shelf for $5, so I got it just for the heck of it.
I've gotten a lot of RPG books, but this has to be one of the crappiest I have ever seen. It's supposed to be a self-contained adventure. The "plot" falls apart on about page 3, and it doesn't try to salvage a semblance of one for the rest of the book. It uses some weird encounter format that makes you flip all over the book. Every encounter uses a 1 or 2 page spread, even the optional non-important ones...meh what a waste of space. Following the fan-made errata, every single statblock has at least one error, many of which will muck up your game. For a book with a $35 price tag, this is maddening.
Just wondering if this is the kind of quality WOTC is putting out, this is a very recent book. I don't have much hope for Saga or 4th after looking through this garbage.
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Jedi_Loophole
Registered:
Jul '07
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Date Posted:
9/15/07 1:15pm
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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FlareStorm posted:
I don't think you'd get any flames comparing D20/D6. Many many (most?) D20ers have fond experiences with it. Many use it's material. It did have the best fluff text.
I can flame D20 to a crisp. I'm actively allergic to D&D3 and any derivates. Would that help? 
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VadersLaMent
Registered:
Apr '02
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Date Posted:
9/16/07 4:20am
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
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The wonderful thing about D6 was that it was simple and quick, which goes hand in hand with SW action. Technically you could get all the SW Minis and use those rules when a battle breaks out, and just fudge and roleplay the story the GM has you in. You could do the same for the Marvel and DC with Heroclix, and the same for D&D.
But for some reason most will not see that as a roleplaying game, they want more rollplaying in their roleplaying, hence complicated details like D20, GURPS, and so on. Hell, half the fun is making the character.
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FlareStorm
Registered:
Nov '00
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Date Posted:
9/16/07 5:45am
Subject:
RE: D&D 4tth/d20 Next/SW Saga+
- Date Edited:
9/16/07 5:51am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
FlareStorm
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I totally agree, in a way. I have been through RPGs since the Red Box D&D. Went through 0D&D, 2ed, d6 SW, Gurps, 3rd, SW d20 revised, 3.5 D&D. I really love seeing it evolve since when you could be an "Elf" and try to kill Bargle. Now you can be that elf you always wanted, a freakin' Elf that shoots crap out of his eyes who worships the Marvel Comics version of Thor. I think that is a good thing, that you can do that.
But having that character and actually playing a game, I think that is where we are loosing it. We are really loosing the game part, this is why I don't like Saga so much. It's so built up so that a player can't fail...it's not a game anymore. Might as well just write fanfiction for your character.
I guess I'm an old schooler. If the bad guys roll good and you roll bad and you die, bummer. I hate those crutches like force points, destiny points, action points, or whatever they make up next.
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