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Topic:
Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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inkpenavenger
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/6 6:49pm
Subject:
Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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The latest Jedi Counciling has a couple of variant rules involving the Dark Side. I thought I would show the article to everyone and share my own Dark Side variant.
Once You Start Down the Dark Path...
Once you have a Dark Side Score of at least one, it gains a modifier just like an Ability score. From that point on, whenever the option exists to commit a transgression, make a Wisdom check opposed by a Dark Side score check. If your Dark Side score wins, the Dark Side overwealms you and you commit the transgression. If your Wisdom check wins, you retain the free will to make your own descision.
I use this rule in my own game to keep players from metagaming the effects of the Dark Side.
-----signature-----
Revan sounds like a girl's name anyway...
www.youtube.com/inkpenavenger
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Rogue_Thunder
Registered:
Jan '03
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Date Posted:
5/6 11:09pm
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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Hmm... I like this. I think I'll be adopting them.
-----signature-----
I'll fly a starship across the universe divide
And when I reach the other side
I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
Or I may simply be a single drop of rain, but I will remain, and I'll be back again...
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Jedi_Matt
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/6 11:48pm
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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Yeah that's good. I like it a lot. It really adds to what Yoda told Luke about the dark side. The d20 game has needed a tougher ruling on DSP's for some time
-----signature-----
Excellence - "'Cause some American-accent informed me Kun is Koon and Yun is Yoon doesn't mean I'm going to Megazord myself into robotic obediance."
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JoinTheSchwarz
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/7 3:21am
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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I'm apparently the discordant voice. What's exactly a transgression? How many extra checks per session are we going to make? Plus, and this is my main objection, I don't like taking choice out of my players' hands and forcing their characters to behave the way I think they should. No one likes cutscenes, after all.
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love can't blossom on a message board
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inkpenavenger
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/7 3:50am
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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I consider "potential transgressions" to be a situation where an obvious choice of right or wrong exists.
Some Examples:
By use of Persuasion or the Demand Surrender talent, the heroes have convinced their foes to flee or surrender. Kroke, the Gungan soldier with a Wisdom score of 13(+1) and a Dark Side score of 6(-2) makes his opposed checks to resist the Dark Side. His Wisdom check rolls a 9 (result of 10), and his Dark Side check rolls 14 (result of 11). Kroke's anger overwealms him, and he draws his blaster to kill the prisoners.
or
Krosh Des'haun, a Bothan Jedi, has dabbled in the Dark Side. His Wisdom score is 14(+2) and his Dark Side score is 2(-4). When he calls on the Force to aid his actions, he feels the pull of the Dark Side and its promise of power. He rolls his opposed checks: Wisdom - 16 (total 18) Dark Side - 9 (total 5). Krosh resists giving in to his aggressive feelings...this time.
I use this rule, not to take freedom away from the players, but to Force them to be accountable for their characters' past actions. With the normal rules regarding the Dark Side, players often call upon it when its convenient thinking "it's ok, I can just atone with my spare Force points right before I level up."
The other aspect of the rule is that, even if you atone your Dark Side score back down to 0(-5), it's like with an addict: the lure, the craving is always there. To cull an example from the EU, I imagine that Kyp Durron stll feels the pull of the Dark Side when using it would be easier. Even though he's turned away from it for good, that shadow is still there, in the darkest recesses of his mind. I imagine he, and other redeemed darksiders, take it "one day at a time" like an adict must.
-----signature-----
Revan sounds like a girl's name anyway...
www.youtube.com/inkpenavenger
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Jedi_Matt
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/8 10:46am
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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Yoda posted:
"Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."
-----signature-----
Excellence - "'Cause some American-accent informed me Kun is Koon and Yun is Yoon doesn't mean I'm going to Megazord myself into robotic obediance."
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JoinTheSchwarz
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/11 12:52pm
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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Excellent Yoda quote, but this is still a role-playing game. Taking a character's control out of the player's hands is just a bad choice.
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love can't blossom on a message board
lol
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inkpenavenger
Registered:
Sep '05
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Date Posted:
5/12 3:00am
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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It's not taking control away from the player. They CHOSE to commit the initial transgression. They CHOSE to take that first step toward the dark side. Rules like this don't take away choice, they enforce the conseqences of that choice. It's just been my experience that players will exploit the rules whenever possible. My rule just makes it so that, once you CHOOSE to take that fist step, you will pay for it for the rest of the campaign. Also, it allows players whose characters fall to the dark side to continue playing. If you want to talk about taking away choice, look at the offical rules regarding dark PCs in the rulebook: It says for the GM to seize total control of the character and make the player roll up a new one. With my rule, the player can still run a dark character, they just have a roughly 50/50 shot of doing the "wrong" thing all the time.
(I have a feeling that I won't convince you to see my point of view, Schwartz, but it's this kind of discussion that I really enjoy on the boards!)
-----signature-----
Revan sounds like a girl's name anyway...
www.youtube.com/inkpenavenger
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JoinTheSchwarz
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/12 4:42am
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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Heh. Me too, me too. 
It's probably a matter of different gaming groups. I know my players would hate that rule and feel offended if I assumed they didn't know how to play a tainted character.
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love can't blossom on a message board
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Jedi_Matt
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/12 1:46pm
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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What I think it comes down to is that there isn't really a cut and paste rule for all game settings, but hey, if I had my way it'd be like it was in WEG all the way.
You're right Schwarz, it's a roleplaying game, designed to put you in the role of someone in the Star Wars Universe. In the Star Wars universe, those who start using the dark side typically end up lost in it if they don't put a lot of effort into atoning, and I think this ruling goes to some way of showing that, the control is taken away from the player just as it would be from the character.
Anyway, that's the temptation and corruption path. In a true Dark Side campaign the characters should embrace it, in which case there's not much point in the rule.
-----signature-----
Excellence - "'Cause some American-accent informed me Kun is Koon and Yun is Yoon doesn't mean I'm going to Megazord myself into robotic obediance."
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/12 11:45pm
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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I absolutely hate it. One, it's a bad RPG mechanic because it violates a pretty sacrosanct area of player choice. Two, that's not how the Dark Side works.
-----signature-----
"Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century."
Julian Dibbell
"You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat."
Gryph
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JoinTheSchwarz
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 9:14am
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
- Date Edited:
5/13 9:15am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
JoinTheSchwarz
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Jedi_Matt posted:
In the Star Wars universe, those who start using the dark side typically end up lost in it if they don't put a lot of effort into atoning, and I think this ruling goes to some way of showing that, the control is taken away from the player just as it would be from the character.
If the player wants his character to become a murdering bastard it should be his choice, not an imposition. I know I wouldn't want my Jedi character to start raping Twi'leks just because I used Force Lightning in a tragically appropriate situation.
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Jedi_Matt
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 1:07pm
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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JoinTheSchwarz posted:
Jedi_Matt posted:
In the Star Wars universe, those who start using the dark side typically end up lost in it if they don't put a lot of effort into atoning, and I think this ruling goes to some way of showing that, the control is taken away from the player just as it would be from the character.
If the player wants his character to become a murdering bastard it should be his choice, not an imposition. I know I wouldn't want my Jedi character to start raping Twi'leks just because I used Force Lightning in a tragically appropriate situation.
Then why is Force Lightning in their Force Suite if they don't expect to touch the dark side? That's the risk they take by choosing that power with their Force training feat!
The odd dark side point isn't going to really come into play, even with a natural 20, but the risk is there and I like that. This for me sums up Anakin Skywalker's slaying of Dooku and possibly even the dismemberment of Windu in RotS
Bottom Line: Play with fire then expect to get burnt.
There is always a choice, where Force Lightning becomes tragically appropriate, I don't know. Powering a kettle? Use the energy cell from the lightsaber or something.
-----signature-----
Excellence - "'Cause some American-accent informed me Kun is Koon and Yun is Yoon doesn't mean I'm going to Megazord myself into robotic obediance."
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dizfactor
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
5/13 8:33pm
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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Jedi_Matt posted:
The odd dark side point isn't going to really come into play, even with a natural 20, but the risk is there and I like that. This for me sums up Anakin Skywalker's slaying of Dooku and possibly even the dismemberment of Windu in RotS
Oh, hell no. Both of those were deliberate, calculated decisions he made - in an RPG, they would have been the player's choice.
The dark side doesn't make anyone do anything ever. Yoda's warning is not about some kind of mystical heebier-jeebie devil on the shoulder who makes you do things. It's about the slippery slope of self-justification and the spiral of having to do more evil things to get yourself out of the situations you get into when you start doing evil things. You choose at every step of the way - it never takes over your mind.
-----signature-----
"Play is going to be for the 21st century what steam was to the 19th century."
Julian Dibbell
"You gotta love an elite killing force that you can fool by putting on a hat."
Gryph
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JoinTheSchwarz
Registered:
Nov '02
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Date Posted:
5/14 3:26am
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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What diz said.
Jedi_Matt posted:
There is always a choice, where Force Lightning becomes tragically appropriate, I don't know. Powering a kettle? Use the energy cell from the lightsaber or something.
What about saving my loved ones just to end up becoming a pawn of evil before being redeemed by said loved ones? Like, you know, that little character named Darth Vader?
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love can't blossom on a message board
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Jedi_Matt
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
5/14 10:59am
Subject:
RE: Saga Edition Dark Side Rules
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Diz, the self-justification typically comes after the deed, when they're on the verge of self loathing from doing something bad.
As for Anakin using the dark side to save his loved ones, if you're referring to him attacking Windu, then the kid was a twit, pure and simple. Sidious was the reason Skywalker lost his arm, not to mention so many friends and soldiers, yet despite being lied to for years and put through all that crap, he still believes that he's telling him the truth about being able to save Padme. Heck, he could have stepped up and been honest with Kenobi for his help. He ain't tragic, he's just thick.
-----signature-----
Excellence - "'Cause some American-accent informed me Kun is Koon and Yun is Yoon doesn't mean I'm going to Megazord myself into robotic obediance."
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