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Author Topic: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
Dmasterman 
Registered: Dec '08
Date Posted: 4/14 10:20am Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
Anyway, as we all know, Force users, or mainly, Jedi and Sith, are usually made out to be the ultimate wizard+martial artist of the future, with lightsabers and magical abilities. But are they really the most powerful entities in the galaxy? They're sure made to look like it, usually they're only taken down by numerous enemies or a very powerful enemy. So what's the deal? Are Jedi/Sith just strong cookies, or are they just very well trained, and everyone else in the galaxy, except for a few are just weaker than them?

So here's my questions.

Are Jedi the most powerful in Star Wars RPG tabletop Games?

I've personally never played the RPG by wizards of the coast, but I have tried the miniatures games. From what it seems the Jedi or Sith (or any other force types) are the most powerful class of the game. They seem to always have the higher edge over other classes or enemies. I was always under the impression that role playing games have multiple classes, that are balanced, and the class usually only out does another by the determination of a character's level of experience.

Are they the most powerful in star wars rpg video games?

As for the Star Wars RPG Video games (KOTOR, Star wars galaxies), this seems to also be the case. It seems that the force classes are just simply on a totally different level than the other classes, so player characters would technically want to choose or become a Jedi/Sith.

So here's the deal. Are Jedi (force users in general) the strongest type of class in Star Wars RPGS? Or are they balanced out to where a bounty hunter, soldier, or something else, is capable of killing them, as long as their class is a higher level than them?

Now, IF Jedi or force users are indeed a stronger or superior class to others, should the rpgs be like this?

The pros, being that it seems like this in the movies, and it gives you the ultimate invincible Jedi feel. But the con is the imbalance created between classes.

So, I just wanted to know if anyone could inform me on the real situation of Force Users, being superior in Star Wars rpgs.

Thanks happy

 
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Koohii  3958 posts
Registered: May '03
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 4/14 12:38pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
A jedi with a lightsaber active can cause serious whomping in an RPG. BUT there IS a Balance. Both Role-playing action and stats can seriously drain a Jedi Character. Jedi have to obey the rules of the force or gain Dark Side Points (DSP). While the DSP make the characters even more disgustingly powerful, ther is a risk of having the charactr go over to the dark side, at which point, they become Non-Player Characters controlled by the GM, and the player must make a new character. As an added penalty, we had a house rule that if your character went to the dark side, the new character could not have any jedi training until the old character had been defeated/destroyed/dealt with.
Now, on a different note, I've posted an explanation of the cost of playing a jedi in the "Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook" thread which breaks down what it costs character to be a Jedi. In short, they sacrifice a great deal of attribute and skill points to be able to smack the enemy around the battlefield.
Not all Jedi are combat monsters. Many specialize in diplomacy, negotiation, healing, and other powers.

So yes, there is a balace in the RPGs.

 

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Jedi_Matt  2441 posts
Registered: Jul '02
41173_Sith Army Knife
Date Posted: 4/14 1:07pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
I'd change "Balance" for "Nerfing".

Seriously... I think Jedi are under strength in the RPG. Not necessarily in WEG... but as Koohii said, there is a big cost which evens out the big dividend later on.

In the WotC games, there's little cost and little benefit. Jedi are game breaking, whereas WEG kept it even with the DSP risk and initial commitment, the D20 game doesn't do their potential any justice.

 

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Katana_Geldar  27710 posts
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU'
 Registered: Mar '03
48693_Elaine (617092)
Date Posted: 4/14 4:27pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
It's also shockingly complicated to learn, particularly as so many first time players want to play as a Jedi. I had to make it a house rule in my game that there are no jeid until I know how it works for myself.

But from what I have seen they can get rather tanky at times.

 

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Koohii  3958 posts
Registered: May '03
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 4/14 4:50pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
Katana_Geldar posted:
It's also shockingly complicated to learn, particularly as so many first time players want to play as a Jedi. I had to make it a house rule in my game that there are no jeid until I know how it works for myself.

But from what I have seen they can get rather tanky at times.


Well, the D6 system is pretty simple. In fact, that's one of the things that makes it so great/versitile. very quick and easy to learn, even with jedi rules.
As for the balance... imagine that if you wanted to make a jedi character, you had to pick 2 of your abilities that you could only roll 2d6 for instead of 3d6. That's the kind of sacrifice the WEG jedi player has to make if s/he wants to start with force powers.
Still, your house rule sounds good.
Whenever I start a new game, I prefer to start as a fighter/warrior type, just because the rules are usually much more streamlined, and I can pick up what other players are doing and learn the rules that way.

 

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FlareStorm  15383 posts
Registered: Nov '00
14749_Jawa 'Toon
Date Posted: 4/14 6:47pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
I think they are too powerful in the PT/Cartoon, they can take on armies on their own. Until the story needs them to be defeated, and they are by just rotten luck, and it feels stupid.

D6 and d20 did a good job of scaling them back so others could shine. Probably wasn't canonically correct, but it was balanced. Saga buffed em up too much, which is one reason why I don't like it.

Then there's the KOTOR videogame approach, which just let them be uber and compensated by throwing uber opponents at them (armies of Sith) Probably one of the reasons why they chose that era, so they could do it.

 
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Koohii  3958 posts
Registered: May '03
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 4/14 11:43pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
And Han Solo stepped on the only dry twig on the entire moon of Endor.
Mistakes happen.
WEG D6 built in that possibility.

As for cannon... Lucas rewrote cannon to suit himself. (Guess it's fair, since it's his universe, but still gonna gripe about it). Before the prequels, all authors were required to follow WEG source books as bible/cannon material in order to keep the universe consistant. Worked pretty well, even if most of the authors were horrible writers.

 

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LightWarden  2948 posts
Registered: Oct '01
19249_20-Sided Die
Date Posted: 4/15 10:08pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
Not that it didn't stop WEG from introducing errors. Things like the Hapan Battle Dragon went from having a third the number of guns as a Star Destroyer but thrice the firing rate thanks to the rotating cannons (so it could exchange fire equally, but its smaller size meant that it couldn't slug it out for as long) to having a rotating cannon design to compensate for a cooling rate that was a third the rate of Republic and Imperial turbolasers. It essentially went from being a representation of Hapes apparent love for weaponry and overkill to something that was barely adequate.

Despite having dozens and dozens of Star Destroyers they had jacked from the Empire every time Palpatine sent an excursion into the cluster, they apparently couldn't back-engineer the secret to their turbolasers not-sucking, despite the fact that the Aqualish managed to bootstrap their way to a space age military fleet with just an Old Republic scout vessel, and they weren't even running at a similar tech level. It becomes a plot point in the Yuuzhan Vong War, where the Republic finally hands Hapes the technology after inadvertently blowing up 2/3rds of the Hapan fleet by misfiring Centerpoint station, because apparently Hapes had spent the past 30+ years not reading the user's manual for their fleet of Star Destroyers. Oh those silly women with their brains that can't understand science.

Of course, The Courtship of Princess Leia wasn't a very good book and I'm really not surprised that they didn't read it very well.

 

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Katana_Geldar  27710 posts
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU'
 Registered: Mar '03
48693_Elaine (617092)
Date Posted: 4/16 2:00am Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
Warden, these are the same Imperials who do not have enough imagination except to build ANOTHER superweapon.

 

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Koohii  3958 posts
Registered: May '03
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 4/16 9:47am Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
LightWarden posted:

Of course, The Courtship of Princess Leia wasn't a very good book and I'm really not surprised that they didn't read it very well.



Wow, I'm even more glad I haven't read most of the EU.
Courtship may no have been the best book, but it was hands down superior to most, expecially anything written by Kevin J Anderson. At least it had humor value and gave 3PO something to do.

 

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Dmasterman 
Registered: Dec '08
Date Posted: 4/17 10:22am Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
From what it seems, the D6 tabletop rpgs are balanced, but what about the video games, mmo's or the D20 WOTC rpg?

 
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Jedi_Matt  2441 posts
Registered: Jul '02
41173_Sith Army Knife
Date Posted: 4/17 3:04pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
Dmasterman posted:
From what it seems, the D6 tabletop rpgs are balanced, but what about the video games, mmo's or the D20 WOTC rpg?


Videogames don't give much choice, they're Jedi-centric or not, primarily from a single character's perspective.

Only ones that aren't are the lego games. The delay between saber swings leaves the Jedi characters slightly at a disadvantage to the blaster wielders in the complete saga version.

Will post more tomorrow!

 

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Katana_Geldar  27710 posts
Title: Former CR Tasmania, AU'
 Registered: Mar '03
48693_Elaine (617092)
Date Posted: 4/17 4:46pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
Playing as a jedi in a computer game is an automatic passport to godhood, that's why it's so hard to play without your player character in the party. Like G0T0's yacht in KOTOR 2, that always takes me a few goes even with Kreia and Visas.

 

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Koohii  3958 posts
Registered: May '03
6249_Veers
Date Posted: 4/18 6:55pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
Lego Saga is nicely balanced at first, expecially in story mode.
Once you get to free-play (where you can switch characters at will) and buy some of the power upgrades, they are slightly less balanced/jedi more powerful. The one character that rivals the jedi most for power is the boba/jango fett model, which can fly, use grappeling hooks, throw thermal detonators, shoot blasters, and (once you buy the upgrade) launch rockets.

On a side note: Lego Indianna jones is awful. Lego Batman is pretty good. Lego Saga is probablly the best, except that they didn't make a PC version.

 

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Vrook_Lamar  977 posts
Registered: May '08
6210_Max Rebo
Date Posted: 4/23 1:43pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
In Saga Edition, force users start out way ahead of everyone else if they take skill focus, and then end up about equal past mid-levels. There's also so many anti-force user abilities that it can be tough to be a force user.

 
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Akisa 
Registered: Oct '08
Date Posted: 6/21 7:57pm Subject: Are/Should Force Users be the most powerful in RPGS?
Vrook_Lamar posted:
In Saga Edition, force users start out way ahead of everyone else if they take skill focus, and then end up about equal past mid-levels. There's also so many anti-force user abilities that it can be tough to be a force user.


I agree but also I have to add that once you get into the late levels high level the Force starts to wane as you can't break equal level defense. The only way to break defense is to complete Education Destiny. However unfortunately most DMs do one of two things; they don't use Destiny Rules or they have Destiny forfilled at the end of the campaign so benefits never come up. From what people have say about DoD (official campaign module) it's the later.

 

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