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Topic:
Zelda Fans Come Hither...
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Legend_of_Leroy
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/4 2:44pm
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
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the best i could do, sorry, also the aol map doesn't fit properly I don't take the proportion in that game to be accurate, especially since link is shown a the same size as a town.
The2ndQuest posted:
Lake Hylia has shifted it's size and shape over the centuries. It's also possible that the two eastern palaces, while similar, are not the same buildings or was reconstructed in a different location after something happens to the original. There are so many ancient dungeons and palaces that appear and vanish over the centuries in Hyrule, it's not plausible, IMO, to try and use them as a sole anchor in a theory, with a few exceptions, and even then need some artistic interpretation (like the Tower of Hera is not as high up Death Mountain in TWW as it is in ALTTP, but then neither is that "north bridge" out of the castle, so if that was destroyed, there would be a higher climb up there involved). Death Mountain, the castles, villages, Zora's Fountain, desert, lake & lost woods/castle town are generally the most consistent anchors, IMO, and these seem to match up more or less pretty well outside of the TMC/FSA sub-series, which potentially requires a little more fudging.
The first 4 dungeons in alttp are all present in four swords adventure in their usual location, the dungeons are some of the most similar structures seen between different zelda titles. Not only that but its isn't the only anchor, lake hylia is now north east of the desert instead of directly east, precisely east of kakariko instead of south-east, it is also north east east of hyrule castle instead of south east and if the map was to be rotated so that lake hylia is in its alttp position, to compensate for this, the whole of the connection between the other places on the map would be lost to the connection in a link to the past as it would make death mountain would be east of the castle etc. Lake Hylia seems the most dispensable for these reasons and the fact that the lake hylia in four swords adventure is nothing like the one in alttp whereas many of the other locations in four swords adventure fits with their alttp counterpart.
I have concluded that the lake hylia in four swords adventure is not the same as the one in a link to the past. The only other options is to disregard the connections of other places to their counterparts in alttp or think that hyrulian cartography is really bad (this is actually quite plausable as the main cartographer seems to be a tightly dressed middle age man in red underwear who thinks he's a fairy). In twilight Princess the map needs to be rotated a whole 70 degrees anticlockwise for both lake hylia and death mountain to match up compared to the ocarina of time map. We've also accepted that there are also problems with the minish cap lake hylia.
The2ndQuest posted:
I also prefer a single timeline approach to things
Out of interest can I ask what order you'd put them in, I'm not really up for discussing timeline in depth at the moment but its an important part of the geography, so I need to know people's stance. I notice you'd said zoras would evolve at their death mountain location which would be the location in ocarina of time. In twilight princess they are north of hyrule castle and there is no evidence of them staying in the death mountain area, and I do believe these ones evolved into rito as Ralis looks remarkably like komali.
My single timeline theory at the moment (and for quite a while now)
Ocarina of Time
Majora's Mask
Ocarina of Time (adult)
Twilight Princees
The Minish Cap
The Wind Waker
Phantom hourglass
Four Swords
Four Swords Adventure
A Link to the Past
Link's Awakening
Oracle of Ages
Oracle of Seasons
Legend of Zelda
Adventure of Link
I'm currently playing through the timeline while trying to get 100% on each game and am just about to start four swords adventure.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/4 3:28pm
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
- Date Edited:
6/4 10:25pm (7 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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Legend_of_Leroy posted:
the best i could do, sorry, also the aol map doesn't fit properly I don't take the proportion in that game to be accurate, especially since link is shown a the same size as a town.
I see, so you propose that TMC's map is actually a portion of the TP map, which in itself is adjacent to the ALTTP/LOZ/AOL maps? But doesn't that end up duplicating several locations like Zora's Fountain, Hyrule Field, Kakariko, Lake Hylia, etc?
Legend_of_Leroy posted:
In twilight Princess the map needs to be rotated a whole 70 degrees anticlockwise for both lake hylia and death mountain to match up compared to the ocarina of time map.
Have you considered the mirroring of TP between the original GCN design and the Wii version? I'm still playing Twilight Princess so I don't yet know the whole terrain by heart (just getting the tears to get to the Water Temple), but I think the original, unflipped GCN design is the one to go with.
It seems to me that, in the Wii version, Death Mountain is in the west of the TP map, Kakariko just southish of it, the castle is in the Lon Lon Ranch ALTTP location in the "middle" of Hyrule. Lake Hylia is slightly south east of the castle. So you rotate the map so that Death Mountain is at the north and then mirror-flip it to simulate the GCN version. This places Death Mountain in the north, Kakiriko now just south east of it ala OOT, the castle is still in the middle, and Lake Hylia is once again east/southeast of the castle. Boom, we're now in the same general alignments as OOT/ALTTP/LOZ.
Legend_of_Leroy posted:
Out of interest can I ask what order you'd put them in, I'm not really up for discussing timeline in depth at the moment but its an important part of the geography, so I need to know people's stance.
The theory I generally work with is as follows (I ommit FS/FSA for now as I'm not personally clear on it just yet, still gotta play those more, and same for Twilight Princess, I haven't yet locked in my decision on it's placement other than "sometime after OOT". For now, I'm assuming it's between MM and ALTTP, given the placement of Kakariko sharing the OOT placement instead of the ALTTP placement):
-The Minish Cap
-Ocarina of Time
-Majora's Mask
-(Twilight Princess)
-A Link to the Past
-Oracle of Ages/Seasons
-Link's Awakening
-(FS/FSA?)*
-The Wind Waker**
-Phantom Hourglass
-Legend of Zelda
-Adventure of Link
*Temporary placement going by the "Hyrule island is due to early stages of Great Flood" theory talked about earlier, as well as the similarities to ALTTP map.
*I realize this isn't a popular placement, as the game implies a closer placement to OOT, but, story-wise, I cannot justify Ganon breaking out of the Dark World prior to ALTTP (at least without invoking a dual-timeline theory which i'd rather not) as it jeopardizes the integrity of that story's premise. Additionally, the Great Flood makes for an excellent explanation as to the state Southern Hyrule finds itself in LOZ (people living in caves atop mountains that used to be islands, the castle washed away, etc). So, basically, I do not take "lack of mention of ALTTP's events" to mean the same thing as "proof it didn't happen then".
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K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Legend_of_Leroy
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/5 4:30am
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
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The2ndQuest posted:
It seems to me that, in the Wii version, Death Mountain is in the west of the TP map, Kakariko just southish of it, the castle is in the Lon Lon Ranch ALTTP location in the "middle" of Hyrule. Lake Hylia is slightly south east of the castle. So you rotate the map so that Death Mountain is at the north and then mirror-flip it to simulate the GCN version. This places Death Mountain in the north, Kakiriko now just south east of it ala OOT, the castle is still in the middle, and Lake Hylia is once again east/southeast of the castle. Boom, we're now in the same general alignments as OOT/ALTTP/LOZ.
My argument is that all the maps which give a clear indication of where the compass directions are have to be orientated within about 40 degrees of each other else these compass directions change, I'm not prepared to change the compass directions, escpecially when I'm able to put the maps together without having to change it.
Oh I will always use the gamecube locations, so If I say east I mean gamecube east, I'm yet to play the wii version.
The2ndQuest posted:
I see, so you propose that TMC's map is actually a portion of the TP map, which in itself is adjacent to the ALTTP/LOZ/AOL maps? But doesn't that end up duplicating several locations like Zora's Fountain, Hyrule Field, Kakariko, Lake Hylia, etc?
TMC takes place in that black space around hyrule town which is unaccesable in TP. Ocarina of time would overlay twilight princess which the desert and death mountain in the same place. OOT Hyrule Field would over southern hyrule field and kakariko gorgo. kakariko would be in the same place. The eastern hyrule field seems to contain some sort of brickwork and ruins, I would say this was the old castle town, but it was destroyed beyond repair in ocarina of time part II (as was the castle). Ocarina of time lake hylia actually matches up with ordon/faron, its not a complete loss as the twilight princess lake hylia seems remarkably different. You're right about kokiri forest being east of ordon though.
Zora's fountain makes a complete change in twilight princess anyway, but I believe that because of teh change of teh river system it moves further up death mountain. The zoras at the snowpeak domain evolve in rito and the zoras at death mountain evolve into the green zoras (zolas?)
Kakariko actually stays in the same place, if you look on my map alttp kakariko mathes up with twilight princess kakariko, which is oot kakariko.
To my knowledge hyrule field is never mentioned as a part of the alttp maps, in four swords adventure the area below hyrule castle is known as the fields, and hyrule field stays roughly in the same place in twilight princess ocarina of time and teh minish cap.
The desert, lake hylia and teh lost woods I have to make duplicates.
I propose that there are two deserts, the gerudo desert from ocarina of time and twilight princess and the desert of doubt which comes later after the flood in four swords adventure and a link to the past.
Lake Hylia has 5 different locations for me, each lake seems to have its own size and features the only similarity is between the two zora temples in ocarina of time and twilight princess. Ocarina of time is teh first lake hylia; Twilight princess is in fact a seperate one, it makes sense as to why the spirit lanayru wasn't there in ocarina of time. The one in the minish cap is a smaller one near hyrule castle town with very little distinct features. After the flood and draining we have the foru swords adventure lake hylai which is probably the biggest lake hylia we've seen I've already explained why it is different the alttp one. The alttp lake hylia is the final one. If teh map is orientated as shown before this becomes the ocarina of time one but there's still 4 different lake hylias anyway.
I had to decide early to drop lake hylia as a consistent place, it seemed necessary to put the map together
The lost woods just seems to be the name of any excessively grown area. The ocarina lost wosts area does not match up with teh twilight princess one unless it grew. neither match up to teh a link to the past one, the four swords adventrue and the a link to the past ones almost match up, which may suggest it grew and was deforested. The legend of zeld one again almost matches the a link to teh past one if we allow it to grow and the adventure of link seems to show a section of the lost woods. in its place in the legend of zelda, so minimum of 2 losts woods.
Hyrule Castle in ocarina of time is destroyed, the twilight princess, minish cap and wind waker location could be the same, after the final flooding in the wind waker the castle would be destroyed a new castle is built before four swords adventure and is the same one in a link to the past (the similarity is remarkable) and is destroyed before legend of zelda, in adventure of link some people talk about north castle or something like that which I'm not really aware about. So 4 hyrule castles in total.
The main reason why I allow these duplicating is because of pre-flood and post flood, obviously the flood would change and destroy things.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
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Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/5 8:51am
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
- Date Edited:
6/5 11:47am (5 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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Legend_of_Leroy posted:
My argument is that all the maps which give a clear indication of where the compass directions are have to be orientated within about 40 degrees of each other else these compass directions change, I'm not prepared to change the compass directions, escpecially when I'm able to put the maps together without having to change it.
Well, keep in mind then that (assuming OOT, ALTTP & LOZ are the same map) the OOT "North" is True North, while the ALTTP north is Magnetic North, the direction a compass would point to (as delinated by the black arrow on the OOT compass rose).
Legend_of_Leroy posted:
To my knowledge hyrule field is never mentioned as a part of the alttp maps
Ah, I think I understand now- I thought you were aligning the ALTTP map as the same one in OOT (with the castle moved to lon lon ranch), but you are essentially making TMC/OOT/TP as one map region adjacent to LOZ/ALTTP, correct?
Legend_of_Leroy posted:
The desert, lake hylia and teh lost woods I have to make duplicates.
I propose that there are two deserts, the gerudo desert from ocarina of time and twilight princess and the desert of doubt which comes later after the flood in four swords adventure and a link to the past.
Lake Hylia has 5 different locations for me...
....so minimum of 2 losts woods.
I could accept there being two deserts (that clouded-over region on the OOT map allows for some interpretation and leighway) and I fully agree that there are at least 2 Lost Woods- the Kokiri Forest one is clearly on the opposite side of the map from the ALTTP/LOZ ones. In my proposal, the LOZ one is the same as the ALTTP one, it's just become overgrown and spread out without Kakariko's population there to keep it in check (as the village is now the graveyard).
I'm very hesitant to say there's more than 1 Lake Hylia. I can accept it changing shape, size or even minor shifts in position due to time (OOT to ALTTP), flooding (effects of TWW), new rivers draining it (LOZ), villager irrigation efforts (speculation) etc. But I can't see there being multiple Lake Hylias within roughly the same epoch of time.
Legend_of_Leroy posted:
in adventure of link some people talk about north castle or something like that which I'm not really aware about.
The North Castle is the starting point of Zelda 2, where the sleeping Princess is. It's named in the AOL in the manual.
Anyways, I'm gonna whip up some new graphics today and tommorow to illustrate my "they're all the same area" theory. At this point almost all of them fit in my eyes, with exception to the FS map, which seems like it's a zoomed-in version of the FSA map, with exception that there's 3 volcanos in FS not in FSA and there's no Zora's Fountain in FS that is in FSA. The exagerated proportions to things also make it hard to take them accurately.
 
-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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Registered:
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Date Posted:
6/5 3:45pm
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
- Date Edited:
6/6 4:06pm (3 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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Ok, I figured I'd start off with the more obvious ones first- OOT/ALTTP/LOZ. I've also done two quick ones illustrating my theory for TWW and FSA thus far. All have been adjusted to represent magnetic north (ie "north" in LOZ & ALTTP, NE in OOT)
(I'll spare dial-up users the load times and just link to these maps)
First, comparing OOT to ALTTP, notating major landmarks appearing in both in red, with yellow being more speculatory (as well as delineating what happened to the river that once ran through Gerudo Valley, potentially explaining why the either died out or moved on, due to the lack of water- perhaps a deliberate act by the Hylians and/or Zora?). keep in mind the OOT map is shown at an angle, so there is some perspective issues here to consider, which shortens the apparent distance between somen landmarks.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/The2ndQuest/Misc/1-OOT-ALTTP.jpg
Next a quick stab at explaining FSA as a sort of "while the flood happens" state:
(file removed, replaced with newer version linked in subsequent post)
That map is more heavily stylized than the others, though. However, the interesting element here is it may suggest what happened to "New" Kakariko Village prior to the flood. This might have forced people to relocate to "Old" Kakariko aka Windfall island as the flood overtakes the rest of Hyrule, as suggsted here:
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/The2ndQuest/Misc/3-ALTTP-TWW.jpg
Now since the distances here are not accurate, this one doesn't line up perfectly, but is generally close. It depicts what I believe to be the Great Deku Tree as being further south than it appears elsewhere, but the fairy island/fairy connectiom could be a more location-accurate alternative for my prediction, however, I'm willing to chalk it up to perhaps the size of Hyrule castle beneath the water, so it actually might still be more east than SE than it appears initially.
I postulate that Windfall Island was Old Kakariko, and people took refuge in the higher-elevated old town when the floods came in. Additionally Dragonroost Island is part of the Death Mountain range as well as Zora's Fountain. Spectacle Rock represents the mountain range extending towards the west, with either the Forsaken Fortress representing the Tower of Hera region (though the TOH is usually depicted as being to the other side of Spectacle Rock, I think t's close enough to be fudged given the scaling issues at play, though alternatively, the Crescent Moon Island region would strike me as being more geographically correct since the TOH is shown as being more north of the castle than NW. Still, the FF is roughly north of the castle so it could still work.
And lastly, we have the post-flood ALTTP/LOZ comparison, showing the graveyard of New Kakariko and several other coinciding features. I suggest a possible connection between one Level entrance and the former Eastern Palace, but that's just a loose idea.
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa163/The2ndQuest/Misc/4-ALTTP-LOZ.jpg
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K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Legend_of_Leroy
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/6 2:45am
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
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The area of water in four swords adventrue you've selected as zora's fountain is in fact lake hylia, go on to flash site and look at the map. http://www.zelda.com/fourswords/launch/index.html
It seems to me that you haven't played four swords adventure (or don't remember it clearly) as you say that the dark temple is former kakariko when kakariko makes an appearance right above it, which would be easier to place it.
although the ocarina of time one matches niceley beyond my expectation(assuming the arrow is magnetic north, in our world magnetic north is about nine degrees from the north rather than 45.) Those are good diagrams, but tehres one vital map needed considering; twilight princess needs a 90 degree turn from the magnetic north or a 45 degree turn from ocarina of time north to match lake hylia and death mountain, plus it has its own compass. I think this makes it the most accurate map we have, as it is accurate rather than artistic
and has a compass.
I also need to apologize the map I use to represent the legend of zelda map was not from the legend of zelda, which has meant my aol map is bigger in proportion than it was, but this also has meant the twilight princess map is even less tilted than it was, which is good.
All this aside, I have noticed that in AOL north of spectacle rock is a heart shaped rock, two in fact, one of these could be the northern fairy island. My memory may serve me wrong but something similar to to mother and child islands may be familiar in the distance by the desert collosus?
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/6 10:59am
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
- Date Edited:
6/7 10:31pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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Legend_of_Leroy posted:
The area of water in four swords adventrue you've selected as zora's fountain is in fact lake hylia, go on to flash site and look at the map. http://www.zelda.com/fourswords/launch/index.html
It seems to me that you haven't played four swords adventure (or don't remember it clearly) as you say that the dark temple is former kakariko when kakariko makes an appearance right above it, which would be easier to place it.
Thanks for that link, I've been looking for something like that. And, yeah, it's been awhile since I've played FSA (and, IIRC, me and my friend have only gone through the first couple of stages so far) and finding a map image online with area labels to refresh my memory or use as an accurate reference chart was difficult at best. I'll revise that FSA image in the near future- it was only a rough guess based on what little info I had/could perceive visually from that map image. It's why I didn't include it among my more absolute comparisons.
So, ok, great- looking at that flash map for FSA, here's what I see, and don't see, lining up then:
-Castle is the centralized ALTTP Castle.
-The Desert is the Desert, same lower leftish quadrant.
-Frozen Hyrule appears to be in the swamp/marshes of ALTTP, or at least part of that region where the two smaller bodies of water are, perhaps extending to the west in the grassy/rocky area prior to the Desert. On the OOT map, this area would seemingly be in the clouded area where the compass rose is. Also interesting to note that we're seeing water ways carved to connect to the coast, like in LOZ's map.
-The Fields seem to be where Lake Hylia once was- thsi would palce the Eastern Palace in it's proper location if they are the same thing... and if they're not, I'm almost tempted to say it'd be a great canidate for the NE grey island area in LOZ where you get a heart container, if it weren't so far south.
-The Swamps strike me as being the muddy, rocky area to the castle's immediate south east in ALTTP.
-Tower of Flames strikes me as a perfect Tower of Hera canidate.
-Death Mountain lines up fine.
-"New" Kakariko (now that I can see it!  )is about in the right spot too, as is the Lost Woods.
-This added Dark World Temple is new, though, but is approx in the same place as the former Gerudo Valley. Ganon visiting mom and dad for the weekend?
-Tower of Winds is also new.
-Lake Hylia I cannot figure out- it obviously looks like, and is placed where, Zora's Fountain has always been. But your right, there's no way that's the same Lake as on the other maps. It has to be a renamed Zora's Fountain or something, with the smaller lake it pools into being the Zora's Domain region on the ALTTP map. Maybe something happened to the Zoras and the Hylians took over after their irrigation efforts drained the original Lake Hylia? Either they started to evolve into their TWW forms or devolve into their "Zola" forms (or maybe both, representing off-shoot species).
I'm thinking maybe some of these discrepancies can be attributed to the apparent merger of the Dark World and Light World in the game- not all of them, but some. I'll reillustrate this next time.
Legend_of_Leroy posted:
although the ocarina of time one matches niceley beyond my expectation(assuming the arrow is magnetic north, in our world magnetic north is about nine degrees from the north rather than 45.)
True, but I don't see how it can't be intentional that the arrow is pointing to the north of the ALTTP/LOZ maps, and, as far as I know, such an arrow on a compass rose indicates magnetic north. We could chalk up the more radical degree difference between it and true north as a Tingle-error, maybe?
Legend_of_Leroy posted:
Those are good diagrams, but tehres one vital map needed considering; twilight princess needs a 90 degree turn from the magnetic north or a 45 degree turn from ocarina of time north to match lake hylia and death mountain, plus it has its own compass. I think this makes it the most accurate map we have, as it is accurate rather than artistic
and has a compass.
Twilight Princess is going to take me some time- it's the hardest map to work with because it's so featureless, unlike many of the others. Might have to paste together some area-specific maps on top of the general map, if I can find any with the actual area details. However, at first glance, I see two possibilities:
1) Mirror-flip the Wii version and rotate it 45 degrees to get Lake Hylia back in it's eastern position, while getting Death Mountain fully north; but, as you said, the severe rotation is a big problem, as is the fact that doing so relocates Zora's Fountain to the other side of the mountain.
2) A slight clockwise rotation of the Wii map places Death Mountain to be, roughly, north, just more to the west than we've seen (which may not be that much of a problem- it could be a different path, etc).
Doing so keeps Kakariko Village in the "New" Kakariko position in the west, almost directly south of the mountain (or, more specifically, the western part of the mountain range). Lake Hylia stays in the south east, the castle in the middle, and Zora's Fountain more or less in the right spot in the north/northeast of the mountain range.
The one revelation that encourages me to this latter theory is that the rivers curving around the map counterclockwise that previously struck me as odd, actually line-up somewhat with the path of the old Gerudo Valley river system I outlined in the OOT/ALTTP map.
In which case, we're not messing with the compass direction of the TP map by much, so that maintains integrity, the only thing we're doing is visually reinterpreting the shape of Hyrule to be less boxy than the OOT/ALTTP/LOZ/AOL-DMA maps. OOT did a little of this, but basically just stretched out some corners and covered a few notches of map in clouds. TP's map gives things a more natural form.
So, I think we can take what has been outlined as the OOT/ALTTP/LOZ/AOL-DMA map area and distort them a little to conform to the less-boxy TP framework. At least, that's my theory, and my next map will try to illustrate it if it does work.
EDIT- After looking a little more into the problem, and finding the cloth TP CE map of use, I'm fully confident that theory can more or less work, with one glaring problem: the location of Gerudo Valley in the east. Everything else is more or less in the right spot, but that just can't work no matter how much you rotate the map. However, it's also not shown as being connected to the rest of the map, so it could be simply placed there on the map, even if it's really where it's supposed to be in the southwest. So, perhaps someone whose played further in TP (Wii) than I have at the moment can answer these 2 questions:
1) Is there evidence in the game that Gerudo Valley is actually in the east? ie: specific mention of it's directional location or some other link/warp/route from one of the nearby parts of Hyrule not shown on the map?
2) Is there any indication this is a NEW Gerudo Valley? Perhaps they up and relocated after OOT to a different desert in the east beyond the Deku Tree. This could explain why the original region of Gerudo Valley seems mostly uninhabited by the time of ALTTP (without them dying off due to the birthrate and sex factors), as well as why we don't see them in the LOZ/AOl era: as that region beyond the Deku Tree is quite clearly flooded.
Legend_of_Leroy posted:
All this aside, I have noticed that in AOL north of spectacle rock is a heart shaped rock, two in fact, one of these could be the northern fairy island. My memory may serve me wrong but something similar to to mother and child islands may be familiar in the distance by the desert collosus?
I'm afraid I'm not seeing the heart shaped rocks, unless you're referring to the mountain ranges further north between Bagu's House & Midoro Palace and then between Midoro Palace and the North Palace area?
It's been a long time since I've played OOT, so i'm afraid I can't recall what was in the distance by the Desert Collossus.
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K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
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Registered:
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Date Posted:
6/6 4:12pm
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
- Date Edited:
6/6 7:34pm (5 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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 Eureka! By jove, I think I've got it! 
If the Fields aren't in fact a dried up Lake Hylia (which is posisble, but...) what if...Lake Hylia is already under water? Look at the association between the river and it's crossings. I now think lake Hylia has already been overcome by the sea.
And... if there no longer exists any lake there... then it stands to reason they might name another body of water Lake Hylia! 
 [AceVentura]Yes! Yes! Can you feel that? Huh?[/AceVentura]
Aaaand- if that is Lake Hylia that far south, then that pushes the Eastern Palace further north in relation to it...which means it WOULD line-up with the position of the grey area of LOZ!! (and, perhaps, that big green tree immediately above it is in fact the Deku Tree?)
I love it when a plan comes together. 
Also, some interesting observations regarding the water ways shown in teh FSA map...
The red arrow denotes a possible spot where the rocks were broken away for the sea to gain access to the Lake during the flood, as well as cut it off after the waters retreated. Combined with the rerouted Zora river to the sea from the former castle areas in the middle lakes, and the Lake shrank to smaller sizes.
-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/8 10:31am
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
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On a non-geographic note- I just got to the cut scene prior to the water temple where the Light Spirit tells the story of the three Interlopers who attempted to claim the Sacred Realm as their own- said to bge after a great battle. Now, presumably that great battle was the Imprisoning War, so how is it that the Sacred Realm, and the Triforce, is intact? Am I just reading this situation wrong due to not having the full picture yet?
-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Rogue_Follower
Title: Manager: Literature
Registered:
Nov '03
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Date Posted:
6/8 7:39pm
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
- Date Edited:
6/8 7:42pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Rogue_Follower
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There's definitely a bit more later, but not as much as one would like. That cutscene is still weird and ambiguous, even after knowing more backstory.
Personally, I would mark the Dark Interloper Conflict as being before the Imprisoning War, but the cutscene is vague enough that they could be one in the same.
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Legend_of_Leroy
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/9 2:19am
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
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I also do not take the two conflicts to be the same, although it is very popular to do so.
I can discuss more about my views on the interloper conflict later, after you've completed the fourth dungeon.
As for the imprisoning war its usually thought that the imprisoning war happens during ocarina of time as it involves the sages who are the seven wise men (in the updated gba version the seven wise men were renamed sages, notice that most of them in ocarina of time are female).
Working from an entirely in-universe perspective I notice that in fact Ocarina of Time is not the best candidate for a story on the imprisoning war, in fact four swords adventure is much closer to being the imprisoning war.
"... a doorway to the realm was suddenly opened"
We see moon gates start appearing in FSA
"The people began to quarrel and fight"
I the village of the blue maiden people are fighting over blaming the mages. The soldiers are possessed by vaati and are against everyone else, the gerudo are quarreling with ganondorf and the deku are aligned with ganondorf. In kakariko the place is overrun with theives, and theres the theme that the four links are quarreling over who gets the force gems.
"But none return"
This doesn't match up with FSA, however it could be a particular portal which no-one returned from.
"Evil power began to issue forth from the portal"
a.k.a shadow link, also the sacred realm is the dark world in this game, I don't think we witness the sacred realm as the dark world in any other agme apart from these two.
"so the king commanded seven sages to seal the gate to the land of golden power"
In the village of the blue maiden it is established that because the shrine
maiden are captured the portals have opened, bringing them back would close away the dark world.
"Many brave knights were lost in the battle to protect the sages from the tides of evil".
We later find out in ALTTP these are the knights of hyrule. A group of four knights containing the four jewels in FSA have the exact same title and are killed in the conflict, because the four links receive the jewels it probably means they were knights of hyrule as well.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/9 8:26am
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
- Date Edited:
6/9 8:26am (1 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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Though the story of the Imprisoning War is linked to Ganon acquiring the Triforce from the Sacred Realm- which clearly takes place in OOT. The change to "sages" in the GBA version also indicates to me an intention to clarify the events of OOT as being the Imprisoning War, on top of the other aligning elements of the number of sages etc.
Also, placing FSA before ALTTP harms ALTTP's story much like placing TWW before it does, IMO. Because now you have Ganondorf locked away, freed, then locked away again, then freed again.
One thought about the Interloper conflict that came to mind (and I'll see how it goes after I finish more of the game) after rewatching part of GT's Zelda Retrospective, is apparently TMC mentions a war that takes place long before OOT where people fought over finding the Sacred Realm, and it took a hero brandishing the Four Sword to end the conflict. Perhaps this is the conflict mentioned in that flashback?
-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Legend_of_Leroy
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/9 11:15am
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
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See for yourself (I wouldn't trust GT),
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1N9c2R4nJgc
the opening is all that is mentioned about the war.
The monsters are sealed in a pandora's like box (you can guess what happens to in the course of the game)
In Ocarina of Time ganondorf only obtains the triforce of power, no zelda games depicts how ganondorf would obtain the other two pieces, without escaping the dark world. I try to minimize the splitting of the triforce.
-FSA spoiler-
Ganon is sealed away anyway at the end of four swords adventure anyway in the four sword, but arguebly this contains him in the dark world where he would get his hands on the complete triforce, so ganon would have to be sealed twice anyway it doesn't make any difference if these both happen before A link to the past as I don't think anyone would remember it as far back as Ocarina of Time
In Ocarina of Time the triforce of power is taken by ganondorf, wisdom is given to zelda by the picori and link obtains the triforce of courage (this is obtained from shadow link in my slightly more complicated theory). After Ocarina of Time the Hero of Time splits the triforce of courage into eight parts (as mentioned by KORL in the wind waker, it specifically mentions Hero of Time).
In Twilight Princess, the splitting of the triforce of courage has resulted in the splitting of farore's spirit into FAROn and ORdona (and maybe six others), if you pay really close attention to Lanayru's tale it mentioned THREE spirits. The triforce of courage glows on link's hand but this may be because it shows he has a fraction of it. I won't tell you yet what other role the triforce has to play in twilight princess.
In the Minish Cap Vaati is after something knwon as the light force which is a solid gold triangle contained in princess zelda I interpret this to be the triforce of wisdom, at the end vaati drains most of the "light force" from princess zelda, but princess zelda has enough of the power at the end. I believe this split the triforce of wisdom into two parts a larger piece and a smaller piece.
In Wind waker, the triforce of courage is in eight part scattered around the ocean and the triforce of wisdom is in two parts one possessed by the king and one possessed by tetra. At the end of wind waker, not only do the parts come together but the triforce finally comes together and arguebly returns to the sacred realm when the king wishes opun it.
In the backstory of a link to the past the complete triforce is obtained by ganon in the dark world but he never manages to escape, Link obtains the complete triforce which I assume he puts in teh temple of triforce later seen in the oracles.
After the oracles link leaves the triforce this probably ended up with the triforce trusted to hyrule which end up being split up and the triforce of courage is put in the great temple.
Adventure of Link ends up with the triforce being completed and link becoming king of hyrule.
This is the minimum number of triforce splits.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
6/9 2:58pm
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
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However, ALTTP does establish that things can go into the Dark World from the Light, just not the otehr way around (for the mot part). My theory suggests that Wisdom and Courage made their way back to Ganon via a Dark World entrance (Warp tile or otherwise- Agahnim seems to be able to do it with his magic as well) between OOT and ALTTP. This maintains the same number of P/W/C splits (ignoring fractal splits for now).
So the "big" splits would be:
1) Split in OOT, eventually reassembled in the Dark World by Ganon, recovered by Link and left whole as shown in the Oracle games.
2) Split prior to TWW, reassembled in TWW, to be whole for the backstory of AOL...
3) ...so that it could be split into P/W/C again and Courage locked away in the Great Palace, to eventually be recovered by Link at the end of AOL, reuniting the whole Triforce once again.
BTW, thanks for tiptoeing around the TP spoilers, I know it hampers the discussion a little, but it's appreciated.
-----signature-----
K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
"If I don't die, I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth." - Drew_Atreides
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Legend_of_Leroy
Registered:
May '08
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Date Posted:
6/12 12:01pm
Subject:
RE: Zelda Fans Come Hither...
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Okay there is actually only one "big split" that occurs in the games (Ocarina of Time), however the triforce is assembled more times then it is split ( Adventure of Link and The Wind Waker ), so if the triforce pieces were naturally apart there would be a minimum of one big split, however as depicted in Ocarina of Time the triforce is whole to begin with, so reassembling twice would require two splits so the minimum would be 2 big splits, One of them is already depicted in Ocarina of Time.
Coming back to an earlier discussion of ganon gradually deteriorating I will try and expalin that in terms of my timeline.
Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time posseses the triforce of power, I believe this gives him the ability to transform into ganon and permanently affects his life span by increasing it.
After Wind Waker I presume ganondorf must have escaped from petrification from the master sword, when this happens I believe ganondorf tried to destroy the master sword but could not touch the blade so only destroyed the hilt (hence the master sword has a different hilt in a link to the past).
FSA Spoiler
During Four Swords Adventure, I think that ganondorf feels he needs to be able to get the power to transform into ganon again, but cannot know how to obtain teh triforce of power again. He uses the trident of evil to make the permanent change but is sealed in the sacred realm/dark world by the four sword. the permanent change may be to do with if he changes back he would be too old and die
In the sacred realm he finds the triforce and without making the mistake he made last time gains it. He has become wiser due to his age and has shown courage in his lust for revenge i.e. in wind waker he attacks link for no other reason than revenge even when he his under equiped in comparison to link. Taking the triforce finally transforms the dark world into the twisted dark image of it we see in A Link to the Past (in FSA it really isn't as menacing). He is however trapped in the sacred realm so uses the plan with agahnim to escape but it fails. He is defeated by the silver arrows and is reduced to ashes losing the triforce.
I believe that twinrova in oracles are the ocarina ones brought back to life, their "death" in Ocarina of Time seemed one of the least permanent, lets say. They have to use a ritual to bring back ganon but end up doing it improperly and ganon is brought back weakened, hence more beast-like and with less ability to communicate (this is shown in the oracles), but since in the oracles he isn't defeated with anything special (as the master sword isn't canon) his re-appearance is easy and so reappears in legend of zelda which he takes the triforce of power but is then reduced to ashes again by the silver arrow (much quicker this time due to his weakness).
At the end there is always possibility that he can come back if the blood of Link is used to revive him, I think if the silver arrow can do the most harm to him so he cannot return by his own means only through a few difficult rituals I think that maybe a theoretical "golden arrow" could kill him for ever.
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