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Topic:
Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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Handmaiden_Yane
Title: Manager Emeritus
Top Games Tournament Host
Registered:
Jul '02
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Date Posted:
1/19 6:49am
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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I couldn't help but respond. 
And yeah, I do read Penny-Arcade.
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Currently gaming: Soul Calibur IV, Civilization Revolution, & Mass Effect
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Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
1/20 3:29pm
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
- Date Edited:
1/20 3:38pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Hammurabi
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jangoisadrunk posted:
Take the rose colored glasses off, and don't fall into the "it's different so it must be worse" hole that lots of people fall into.
Seriously, I see this all the time in every form of entertainment media, and anyone who spends any amount of time on message boards should see it too. Any time a much-loved franchise releases new material, it gets slammed for being worse that the stuff that came out before.
Think of the following franchises: Star Wars, Halo, The Matrix, The Terminator, Harry Potter, David Milch's work on television (not really a franchise, but in certain circles, his shows are deemed important), The Sopranos, Battlestar Galactica, and really every other beloved movie, videogame, or television franchise that has a dedicated fan base. All of these franchises suffered serious fan backlash that increased as the number of franchise entries increased. I just don't believe that all those franchises actually got worse over time. More likely, in some cases, it was simply the law of diminishing returns. That's not to say people aren't entitled to their opinions, I just ask that, before a flame war erupts, we take a serious look at why we tend to like franchises less over time. Are newer incarnations really worse, or are other factors at work?
Excuse me? Gonk came here with some very valid complaints and you're trying to dismiss it as 'different so it must be worse'? Now, if Gonk had gone after the combat system or something, you could have made that point. But Gonk went after plot and character development, and - guess what - he's right. There's simply less quantity (and arguably less quality) to the character development in Mass Effect. You get only two or three conversations with each member of your crew, whereas in KOTOR, you generally got eight or nine. You don't get particularly distinct characters, with none of the ripe conflicts and rich character-quests you saw in KOTOR. Hell, the side quests in general are lacking in Mass Effect; all you really do is go to some empty generic planet and go into a house with the exact same floorplan as every other house in the galaxy. In this house you shoot some people and get some xp and money. Compare that to KOTOR - which had dozens of side quests with plenty of dialog and tough decisions - and it's not hard to find Mass Effect lacking. Diminishing returns? More like diminishing quality.
I mean, that said, Mass Effect's still a pretty good game. It improves on KOTOR's worst aspect (combat) but doesn't do everything quite as well. In the end, it's no masterpiece.
EDIT: BTW, 'rose-colored glasses' means the opposite of what you think it does.
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
1/20 4:43pm
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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Thanks to Hammurabi, who was saying a lot of what I was getting at.
Think of the following franchises: Star Wars, Halo, The Matrix, The Terminator, Harry Potter, David Milch's work on television (not really a franchise, but in certain circles, his shows are deemed important), The Sopranos, Battlestar Galactica, and really every other beloved movie, videogame, or television franchise that has a dedicated fan base. All of these franchises suffered serious fan backlash that increased as the number of franchise entries increased. I just don't believe that all those franchises actually got worse over time. More likely, in some cases, it was simply the law of diminishing returns. That's not to say people aren't entitled to their opinions, I just ask that, before a flame war erupts, we take a serious look at why we tend to like franchises less over time. Are newer incarnations really worse, or are other factors at work?
Well first of all not all the examples you give, I think, suffer what you say they do. In fact, the only one I think that solidly suffered in precisely such a way was the Matrix: Star Wars, at least, had a on par or superior sequel before the allegations of poorer quality began to come out.
Sopranos, BattleStar and the Terminator are all franchises that have a lot of debate in terms of poorer quality product. Even Terminator III was considered by many to be a very good film.
As Hammurabi said, Mass Effect simply has much thinner writing than its predecessors. I am not saying this makes it a BAD GAME. I had no problem with the combat system, and the graphics were spectacular.
But the game suffered by not being very broad. KOTOR I and II -- in fact KOTOR II, even unfinished, I feel to be the superior story and game than its predecessor -- had deeper characters, storylines and ideas. Jade Empire likewise was superior (inferior to KOTOR II, but not by a whole heckuva lot).
This doesn't mean Mass Effect did not have its moments. It did. In fact, I hesitate to say it even had a bad moment in its writing -- except for perhaps how Wrex seems to follow you counter to what his own interests should be and the council not articulating as well as they could have towards the end why they do the actions they do -- but it's just that it felt like a lot was missing. Besides Ashley, who I think ended up being something vibrant in a Marine, into poetry, with a belief in God that makes her feel isolated in a tech-laden future, I didn't think any of the characters were really engaging. Those the had good ideas behind them went largely undeveloped.
Wrex, for instance, plays a similar vein as Mandalore does in KOTOR... but there's a lot more you can do with Mandalore in KOTOR I and II, and the arc of the game does a much firmer job of wrapping him and his people into the storyline. There's in depth and varied quests you do for Mandlaore and his group, and even a little bit where you can meet other Mandalorians and convince them to join with Mandalore.
By contrast, the Krogan are spoken of very little. On Vermire they're spoken about, but you interact with no other Krogan in terms of the Genophage, Wrex's doubts only ever surface once, when you enter the facility the entire effect of the entire thing comes down to one room you enter on the way, by no means a major destination, in which a Krogan scientist yells out something over the fighting, and that's it. No conversation, no reaction from Wrex if he's in your group, nothing.
Again, this does not make ME a bad game. But it makes it inferior to what Bioware has had its hands in before.
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wild_karrde
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
1/20 6:10pm
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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Keep in mind that this is only pt 1 of 3 and most of the characters will be back in the next 2 games. Honestly, how much character did Leia have in ANH?
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Uncle_Owen_Kenobi
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
1/20 7:03pm
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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I agree that the game felt smaller in scope. When I beat it I was surprised the main story was over so fast. The game was pretty short for a Bioware game. I spent more time running around the generic worlds looking to finish those lame collection quests and the side quests to level up. And the companions kind of felt bland. I still liked the game, but it felt like something was missing.
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Hammurabi
Registered:
Jan '07
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Date Posted:
1/21 8:23am
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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wild_karrde posted:
Keep in mind that this is only pt 1 of 3 and most of the characters will be back in the next 2 games. Honestly, how much character did Leia have in ANH?
So we'll ultimately have to pay $180 for what cost us $50 last time around?
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Gonk
Registered:
Jul '98
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Date Posted:
1/21 9:00am
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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Keep in mind that this is only pt 1 of 3 and most of the characters will be back in the next 2 games. Honestly, how much character did Leia have in ANH?
One could say KOTOR I is the first of a 3-part series (with part III perhaps never to be built; we'll see), but if so thier part 1 is superior to this one. Which is sort of my point.
It's not like there's no room for it to grow per se. All the characters you meet could still get developed more and have room to grow. It's just that it didn't happen in THIS one. Garus is probably the most notorious example, but the Quarian, Wrex and Talia are all in different stages of the same boat. I mean of the 4 of them, Wrex probably has the most development thanks to Vermire, and even what happens there didn't get the attention it needed, IMHO.
I'm not saying I wouldn't buy a ME 2. Just that this one needed more stuff going on. It was a little short, but even at its current length they could have made a better story and characters by putting in more and varied interactions and conversations.
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jangoisadrunk
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/21 12:19pm
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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Well, I've played Kotor 1, Kotor 2, and Jade Empire and I simply disagree that Mass Effect is shallower, or otherwise smaller in scope than those other games. It's a vastly different game, starting with the simple fact that the PC is a fully fleshed out character that could be straight from Hollywood. The crew member interactions are clearly simpler than in those earlier games, but it seems to me that Bioware simply centered the focus on Shepard, making ME less of an ensemble drama and more star vehicle (if you'll allow the Hollywood analogy). I just don't find ME worse for the shift in focus, but it's simply a matter of taste.
The side quests are handled in a different fashion as well. Instead of side quests tied to the main quest, you get sidequests that are separate from the main quest and are more for exploration and level grinding than story telling. Again, as a matter of taste, I don't find this to be worse than the earlier games, and frankly, the reasons you're doing sidequests make more in-game sense than in Kotor or Jade Empire. I always thought it to be a little silly that, in those games, to achieve your main goal on any given world (or city) you had to complete a bunch of fetch quests for the local citizenry (I know there are a few of these in ME, but the majority are confined to the Citadel). The side quests in ME make more sense to me in this regard since they're composed of missions assigned to you by a superior officer, and surveying work that is easy to complete within the scope of your other missions, and vitally important to the Systems Alliance.
These changes do not, in my opinion, make Mass Effect worse than Kotor and Jade Empire; and no one can say that ME is objectively worse than those games. If you want to think it does, then fine. If I want to think that it's a just repeat of every online "basher vs gusher" war I've ever seen, then that should be fine too. At least my viewpoint allows me to feel content.
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wild_karrde
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
1/22 8:32am
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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Gonk posted:
One could say KOTOR I is the first of a 3-part series (with part III perhaps never to be built; we'll see), but if so thier part 1 is superior to this one. Which is sort of my point.
No, one couldn't say that because when BioWare made KOTOR it was never planned to be part of a trilogy. When LFL went to them and asked them to make a sequel, they said no which is why it was turned over to a sub-par developer who rushed it out without finishing it. Mass Effect, on the other hand, was always planned out to be a trilogy.
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Lord_NoONE
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
1/22 9:17am
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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wild_karrde posted:
Gonk posted:
One could say KOTOR I is the first of a 3-part series (with part III perhaps never to be built; we'll see), but if so thier part 1 is superior to this one. Which is sort of my point.
No, one couldn't say that because when BioWare made KOTOR it was never planned to be part of a trilogy. When LFL went to them and asked them to make a sequel, they said no which is why it was turned over to a sub-par developer who rushed it out without finishing it. Mass Effect, on the other hand, was always planned out to be a trilogy.
And that is why, in the end, Mass Effect will be the greatest RPG experience for gamers.
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Master-Fett
Title: Games Trivia Host
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
1/22 1:53pm
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
- Date Edited:
1/22 1:53pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Master-Fett
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Thats an opinion.
....but a good one.
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Uncle_Owen_Kenobi
Registered:
Dec '01
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Date Posted:
1/22 3:43pm
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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jangoisadrunk posted:
The side quests are handled in a different fashion as well. Instead of side quests tied to the main quest, you get sidequests that are separate from the main quest and are more for exploration and level grinding than story telling. Again, as a matter of taste, I don't find this to be worse than the earlier games, and frankly, the reasons you're doing sidequests make more in-game sense than in Kotor or Jade Empire. I always thought it to be a little silly that, in those games, to achieve your main goal on any given world (or city) you had to complete a bunch of fetch quests for the local citizenry (I know there are a few of these in ME, but the majority are confined to the Citadel). The side quests in ME make more sense to me in this regard since they're composed of missions assigned to you by a superior officer, and surveying work that is easy to complete within the scope of your other missions, and vitally important to the Systems Alliance.
In a race against time to save the organics of the universe from extinction. Shepard decides to aimlessly wander the galaxy negotiating hostage situations and fight space pirates. Yup, that makes a lot sense. Those Alliance missions kind of bothered me. Shepard works for the council now. He has more important things to worry about then breaking up some retired Captains space hippy commune. A lot of those missions seemed below the attention of a Specter. Flying to the other side of the universe just to see if some random Joe's brother is dead, meh.
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Master-Fett
Title: Games Trivia Host
Registered:
Sep '02
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Date Posted:
1/22 4:14pm
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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I can agree with you both. I felt that the liberty you received in ME to do sidequests at your own will was great, but at the same time it made the trivialness of them just stick out even more. But for the most part I liked how they pulled it off.
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wild_karrde
Registered:
Oct '99
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Date Posted:
1/22 4:58pm
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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I liked the side quests because they allowed me to level up like mad before taking on the main quests.
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jangoisadrunk
Registered:
Mar '05
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Date Posted:
1/22 8:23pm
Subject:
RE: Mass Effect -- Action RPG Title made by Bioware
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Uncle_Owen_Kenobi posted:
jangoisadrunk posted:
The side quests are handled in a different fashion as well. Instead of side quests tied to the main quest, you get sidequests that are separate from the main quest and are more for exploration and level grinding than story telling. Again, as a matter of taste, I don't find this to be worse than the earlier games, and frankly, the reasons you're doing sidequests make more in-game sense than in Kotor or Jade Empire. I always thought it to be a little silly that, in those games, to achieve your main goal on any given world (or city) you had to complete a bunch of fetch quests for the local citizenry (I know there are a few of these in ME, but the majority are confined to the Citadel). The side quests in ME make more sense to me in this regard since they're composed of missions assigned to you by a superior officer, and surveying work that is easy to complete within the scope of your other missions, and vitally important to the Systems Alliance.
In a race against time to save the organics of the universe from extinction. Shepard decides to aimlessly wander the galaxy negotiating hostage situations and fight space pirates. Yup, that makes a lot sense. Those Alliance missions kind of bothered me. Shepard works for the council now. He has more important things to worry about then breaking up some retired Captains space hippy commune. A lot of those missions seemed below the attention of a Specter. Flying to the other side of the universe just to see if some random Joe's brother is dead, meh.
All I said is that it makes more sense than the random fetch quests and detective work you had to do in KOTOR just to advance the main story.
Isn't the whole "random" sidequest sort of standard in RPG's anyway? I would say yes, and that I'm not about to spend one more second arguing about which game contained less random sidequests.
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