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Topic:
Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
3/30 9:10pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
- Date Edited:
3/30 10:08pm (7 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master_Ron
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Obese_1_Ka-Blooey posted:
I didn't mean FFA, though. I'm talking about straight-forward 1vs.1, duel, whatever you may call it. This game is not a set-in-stone system, Ron. Anyone has the possibility to beat anyone fairly, items or not. Yes, it rarely if ever happens, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
Never being used figuratively in this context, Brennan. Still, you really aren't EVER going to see a button masher defeat a competitive player. Yes, the button masher has a chance at beating him (an incredibly small chance), though it wouldn't happen unless the competitive player made an enormous amount of crucial mistakes (like SDing off all of his lives) which doesn't happen very often.
If he makes a mistake in spacing or timing, the button masher can't capitalize on it to the fullest extent. If he trips, if he accidentally jumps off the edge, if he chooses a wrong attack, hits a wrong button, the button masher won't be able to capitalize on the mistake. On the other hand, the competitive player will more times than not be able to almost fully capitalize on almost all of the button masher's mistakes, and he'll be making a lot of them seeing as he's mashing buttons. I mean, there's really only one scenario in which the button masher can win. Yes, this isn't a set-in-stone system, but the skill gap in this case is so large it might as well be.
Trimaj posted:
anyone really had much of a chance to play sonic? i got to a little at a gamestop. i'd have been able to mop the floor with almost any one i've played in melee with him, but that's not necessarily saying that much. just wanted opinions on him.
take him over mario any day of the week though.
Eh, I'm inclined to ignore you completely after that last sentence, though I guess I could give you a few quick thoughts.
Alright, to be frank, Sonic's horrible. His KO potential is nonexistant as well as his priority, his combo potential isn't great, he's laggy, his attacks don't do a whole lot of damage overall, he has very little range, and he's fairly easily comboed himself. His recovery's decent, though he really doesn't have much of an offensive game if at all. He's fast, and that's about it. He's essentially the new Pichu, but I guess it's symbolic of his recent games, huh?
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Darth-Lando
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
3/30 9:46pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Jedi_Master_Ron posted:
Alright to be frank, Sonic's horrible. His KO potential is nonexistant as well as his priority, his combo potential isn't great, he's laggy, and fairly easily comboed himself. His recovery's decent, though he really doesn't have much of an offensive game if at all. He's fast, and that's about it. He's essentially the new Pichu, but I guess it's symbolic of his recent games, huh?
I wouldn't go so far to call Sonic the new Pichu. At least his attacks don't do damage to himself.
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
3/30 9:53pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
- Date Edited:
3/30 10:08pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master_Ron
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Darth-Lando posted:
I wouldn't go so far to call Sonic the new Pichu. At least his attacks don't do damage to himself.
I don't know, at least Pichu could rack up damage half-decently and KO fairly well. He had better range than Sonic too. Still, calling Sonic the new Pichu is a slight exaggeration I'll admit. He is pretty bad though.
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Trimaj
Registered:
Jun '05
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Date Posted:
3/31 12:19am
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
- Date Edited:
3/31 12:51am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Trimaj
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what part of "played a little at gamestop" did you not get? i didn't like mario very much, but i've not had the opportunity to really learn much about the changes they made.
and i've seen some videos that have sonic wracking up damage pretty durned fast. and beating the snot out of mario, and both looked to know what they were doing pretty well.
EDIT
i've seen maybe one or two vids with mario winning that battle. also in most of them sonic seems to take a good 40% more damage to KO.
:snoopy
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
3/31 8:57am
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
- Date Edited:
3/31 8:58am (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master_Ron
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Trimaj posted:
what part of "played a little at gamestop" did you not get? i didn't like mario very much, but i've not had the opportunity to really learn much about the changes they made.
and i've seen some videos that have sonic wracking up damage pretty durned fast. and beating the snot out of mario, and both looked to know what they were doing pretty well.
EDIT
i've seen maybe one or two vids with mario winning that battle. also in most of them sonic seems to take a good 40% more damage to KO.
Wow, calm down, it was a joke (I'm assuming your hostility is in response to the first sentence, right). Anyway, essentially you've asked about Sonic's potential, which is very, very low relative to the other characters, and very little is going to change that. Just because you've seen him rack up damage fairly well on one or two occasions doesn't have anything to do with the character itself, but the player controlling him. In the right hands any character can defeat another, in the right hands any character can KO well, etc, though it is very difficult to rack up damage and KO with Sonic; overall his attacks don't do much damage, they're laggy, and weak. He also can't combo very well, probably due to his nonexistant priority and overall laginess. He's just a bad character; he has very little offensive game.
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epithree
Registered:
Aug '06
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Date Posted:
3/31 7:08pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Jedi_Master_Ron posted:
I think I finally understand where epithree and Obese_1_Kablooey are coming from with the buttom mashing/c-stick abusing thing. Just correct me if I'm wrong, but when you say that a button masher or generally less-skilled opponent can defeat a more skilled one, you're referring to a specific set of rules in which this can actually occur (during free-for-alls, I'm assuming), correct. Items on or off, FFAs require a whole lot less skill/strategy than singles/duels/one vs one matches or even doubles/teams. With items on, it almost becomes anyone's game (that's a fairly large exaggeration, I know) with the new luck factors and natural advantages thrown into the game in turning them on. Heck, this guy didn't need to do anything and he won his match.
You might also want to check out the Smash competitive scene, epithree. There are tournament rules that call for the most fair matches possible that go hand-in-hand with the competitive scene, and you'll generally find the best players out there involved in that particular scene.
The tournament rules for Melee were as follows:
- 4 stock
- No items
- 8 min time limit
- Friendly fire on
- Best of three (or best of five in a championship)
There was also a stage ban list that was in place to make the matches more fair and to erase any natural character advantages that come with the more gimmicky or just larger stages. There was a tier list to support these stage bans as well, because the higher tier characters were normally the ones who benefitted most from
And if you need a first-hand experience, I've been in and around the competitive scene for a while now, and tournaments, the people you meet there, and generally the competitive Smash community itself are all great. It's been overall just a great experience; the people you'll meet online and at tournaments are the nicest people you'll ever meet (and ones who share your interest in Smash as well). The community itself is extremely tightly knit; tourney-goers would very often go to dinner with each other after tournaments and normally everyone liked each other. I remember the cheers at Champ Combo (big NorCal vs SoCal tournament near LA) shifting from "SoCal" to "Cali" at the end of the tournament. We were just an extremely tightly knit group; it was great.
I guess I should also list the Brawl tournament rules as of yet as we;;:
- 3 stock
- 9 min time limit
- No items
- Team attack on
There is a stage ban list for Brawl as well, though it's fairly inconsistent right now among different tournaments. Go to the Smash Boards (www.smashboards.com) for more information. Or if you need it, I can offer explanations for any part of the rules or just in general anything that didn't make sense to you.
epithree posted:
Well of course u can compare mk with ssb. They're both games, aren't they?
True... their styles are completely different and they don't share many common aspects... but does that mean we can't throw em upon our personal ranking lists? no.
personally, i rank the mk games much higher than any ssb game. And that means that i had to compare them. i'm sure you've all ranked them as well.
First of all, you're looking at the situation very, very generally, and secondly, I think he means you can't compare the two when you're attempting to determine the better fighter. They're just too different to determine that accurately (although I think any of us with half a brain can figure that Smash > MK; more content, more play options, more replay value, more unique fighter = better game  )
Generally speaking though, you're right. You can rank them like you have, though that's (in most cases) mainly if not fully opinion-based and would vary from person to person.
Yes you are correct to assume free for alls. The youtube link provided a splendid example. Tournament rules that call for the most fair matches are wonderful. However, there is the occasional oddity of a button masher winning.
a well thought out reply... good job. i appreciate the lengthy and insightful post, although the 'half a brain' comment was certainly uncalled for. There are many intelligent people who believe that mk > smash.
all around, your response was quite informative. thank u for your time.
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
3/31 7:29pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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epithree posted:
although the 'half a brain' comment was certainly uncalled for. There are many intelligent people who believe that mk > smash.
Oh, that was a joke, as was implied by the little emoticon/smiley that succeeded that little comment. Smash is my personal favorite game, so I'm definately biased when it comes to critiquing/rating/comparing it in relation to other games.
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Obese_1_Ka-Blooey
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
3/31 8:24pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Too bad you can't save unlocking matches, because I would have saved my first attempt at getting Wolf (with Sonic, I must add). First of all, that was the first time playing with Sonic (and it wasn't even playing, meaning stamina mode with 1 hp for the CP and flowers) so I SDed in 4 seconds.
I can't stand Sonic either, though I can't really say why other than he's too wild for me. I should give him another chance, but why suffer more?
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
3/31 8:43pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Eh, he's Sega. Don't bother.
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Obese_1_Ka-Blooey
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
3/31 10:32pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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I don't hear you say the same for Snake, though.
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epithree
Registered:
Aug '06
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Date Posted:
3/31 10:40pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Jedi_Master_Ron posted:
epithree posted:
although the 'half a brain' comment was certainly uncalled for. There are many intelligent people who believe that mk > smash.
Oh, that was a joke, as was implied by the little emoticon/smiley that succeeded that little comment. Smash is my personal favorite game, so I'm definately biased when it comes to critiquing/rating/comparing it in relation to other games.
hello... thanks for the quick reply and explanation. i have to remember that the tongue emoticon = joke. so is brawl just your favorite fighter or your favorite game of all time?
well i'm not saying it's a bad game... i just believe it's overrated. my #1 gripe is the button mashing fiasco. my next reason... i don't think that brawl improved enough upon melee. guess i expected a huge improvement that would really separate the games. instead it feels like they just repackaged melee... way too similar. what are your thoughts? i'm sure you can list 100 improvements easily but i don't think it would make me feel very different. my warped mind thinks of brawl as just 'melee: special edition'... perhaps u shall enlighten me... my opinion just might be swayed.  paramunn has made some good points.
anyway, is it true that sonic has no potential whatsoever? 
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BartSimpson-SithLord
Registered:
Jan '02
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Date Posted:
3/31 11:05pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Improvements?
Za Warudo
ZSS
Ridley
Lyn
SNAKE
Za Warudo
LANDMASTERZ
Online(lolag)
No more Wavedashing and other glitches(loladvancedtechniquez)
KING DUCK
Gardevoir
BEST SOUNDTRACK EVER
Bad things?
Sakurai trolling us with the DOJO
Lousy level creator (and bawwwing fans who couldn't make a straight line with it)
SSE next to last cutscene. Seriously, how random is THAT?
BUILT FOR SIXTY PLAYERS(new pork city)
Of course, these are just my opinions and are heavily steeped in sarcasm. So, take them for the most perfect facts that they are.
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Obese_1_Ka-Blooey
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
3/31 11:10pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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I bet the majority of "purists" out there, meaning Melee freaks, have problems with the game physics in comparison with that of Melee. That, and the absence of wave-crap and other retarded things.
Me personally? I'm disappointed with the limitations of the stage builder, and I'm not crazy about some of the levels (New Pork City, Hanenbow, etc.). Also, some of the characters were made worse in Brawl than in previous installments (Link, Samus, CF) and I didn't like some of the replacement characters (Ike for Roy, etc.)
But those are just small gripes I have about Brawl; overall, I'm very pleased with the game.
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Darth-Lando
Registered:
Aug '02
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Date Posted:
4/1 10:31am
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Obese_1_Ka-Blooey posted:
Me personally? I'm disappointed with the limitations of the stage builder, and I'm not crazy about some of the levels (New Pork City, Hanenbow, etc.).
I despise New Pork City. It's just way way waaaaaay to big. I've been playing though Classic mode, to unlock all the character trophies, and every time I see Team Ness or Team Lucas I die a little inside knowing that I'll have to run around that level chasing them down.
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/1 6:09pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
- Date Edited:
4/1 6:12pm (2 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master_Ron
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epithree posted:
so is brawl just your favorite fighter or your favorite game of all time?
Either Brawl or Melee (favorite game, that is). Right now I like Melee's gameplay a whole lot more than Brawl's; and gameplay makes up the core of every game. Melee's gameplay was a lot faster-paced and the advanced techniques added tremendous depth to the game. The skill gap amongst higher level players in Melee was a lot larger too; in Brawl there's not a whole lot separating a skilled competitive (bolded to avoid any misunderstandings) player from a decent one. This is probably only because the game's relatively new, though that fact still bothers me. Brawl has so much more content/replay value though, so I'm not sure which one I like more right now. Brawl will most likely eventually become my favorite of the two (as a skill gap becomes apparent and more advanced techs are discovered), though right now I can't really decide between the two.
Anyway, I like Smash in general because it's arguably the most unique fighter on the market, the games have some of the most replay value you'll find in a fighting game, the sheer number of options in-game, the dozens of game modes offered (most of them well-refined), and its generally phenomenal gameplay (even Brawl's gameplay is phenomenal; I just like Melee's more right now).
When I say that Smash is unique, I mean that it's one of the few fighters left that not health-centered, and it's a 2D fighter wih only two attack buttons, though a ton of depth (especially Melee). You are also given more mobility than most fighters, and it's less of a button-masher than games like SC or MK.
Then you have the option to play several different ways. You're given one of the largest character rosters in fighting games, one of the largest selection of stages, and one of the largest selection of fighting options. You can play stock, time, or coin matches, with or without items, with or without a time limit, one vs one, two vs two, FFAs, and even 1 vs 3 if you want.
The game modes as well are almost endless. You have of course, the standard multiplayer, though then you have a few options for single player (SSE/Adventure Mode/Classic/All-Star), event matches, a handful of fun stadium events, and in this installment, a stage editor, online mode, and coin launcher (all of which are enjoyable, though the lag on the online right now is hard to get past; it should clear up though).
Plus, I grew up on Mario for the NES/SNES (Super Mario Bros, Super Mario World, Mario Kart, and SMRPG), Kirby on both the GameBoy and the SNES, and Pokemon (R/B/Y) for GameBoy as well. Ocarina of Time was one of my favorite games for the N64 along with DK64, Kirby: Crystal Shards, StarFox 64, Paper Mario, Mario Kart, and Mario 64. I've just about enjoyed every Mario, Kirby, Pokemon, and LoZ since. I got into Metroid, Fire Emblem, and F-Zero on the GCN, and I loved Pikmin when I first played it too. I've followed each of these franchises up to the Wii, and like I said I've enjoyed almost every installment of every franchise that I've played thus far. So to see all of my favorite childhood/present video game characters in one, very well-made fighter is amazing in itself.
epithree posted:
well i'm not saying it's a bad game... i just believe it's overrated.
And I think it's a bit underrated, probably because very few people appreciate it to the extent that I do.
epithree posted:
i don't think that brawl improved enough upon melee. guess i expected a huge improvement that would really separate the games. instead it feels like they just repackaged melee... way too similar. what are your thoughts? i'm sure you can list 100 improvements easily but i don't think it would make me feel very different. my warped mind thinks of brawl as just 'melee: special edition'... perhaps u shall enlighten me... my opinion just might be swayed.
Well, whether or not Brawl improved on Melee is a matter of opinion, though the two games aren't at all similar. In a general sense they're similar, though that's to be expected of a two games of the same franchise. Otherwise, not only do we have the new/changed characters, stages, items (and the Final Smash/Assist Trophy are two very large additions in this department), collectibles, etc, though the gameplay's a whole lot different and Sakurai has introduced a handful of new game-modes/features as well.
Anyway, with the gameplay we have a handful of new mechanics, overall slower falling speed, and a few new techniques as well. There's a new auto-sweet spot ledge mechanic, the new tripping mechanic, the new air-dodge physics, etc. For techniques we have swimming, moving and shooting, the footstool jump, crawling, pivot grab, boost-smashing, the reverse aerial approach, etc. Oh, and just a note, the "etc.'s" are there because there are more mechanics/techniques that have slipped my mind at this moment, though there are more of them.
And like I said, there are a handful of new game modes/features as well, including the SSE, Boss Battles, the Online Mode, Stage Editor, Coin Launcher, Masterpieces, Chronicle, etc. I enjoyed the SSE greatly. Boss Battles is a great new mode to add to the stadium events. I have no complaints about the online mode except for lag (though that will clear up eventually) and lack of options with anyone (which I can look past). The Coin Launcher is superior to the lottery in every way, and I've had fun playing that mode as well. The Stage Editor is simple, though you're given a good amount of options and I've seen some incredible stages made using this mode too, and while both the Masterpieces and Chronicle are less important/fun, they're both useful and most people welcome these additions.
The old game modes that have carried over to this game saw some changes as well. The All-Star mode is different, characters are battled in groups and are themselves grouped by the franchise they originated from. The Multi-Man fighter, Target Test, and even the Home Run Contest saw changes as well. For one, you can play co-op in all three of the modes, though there are five levels of difficulty for Target Smash now and apart from the new alloy team you'll see the occasional appearance of an actual character in Multi-Man Brawl. We have new event matches now too, and you can co-op in that mode as well.
Anyway, it's obvious Brawl is far from a rehash of Melee. It's no doubt that a the addition of a few modes are vast improvements over Melee (like the SSE > Adventure Mode), though again, it really all comes down to perception as to whether or not Brawl improved over Melee overall.
epithree posted:
anyway, is it true that sonic has no potential whatsoever?
Nope, it's just that his ceiling of potential is lower than most, if not all characters in this game.
BartSimpson-SithLord posted:
No more Wavedashing and other glitches(loladvancedtechniquez)
I resent that, BaSSiL. For one, very few advanced techniques were glitches, very few if any were naturally advantageous to learn, and overall they sped up and added a great deal of depth/replay value to the game. I think the phrase "don't knock it until you've tried it," is appropriate here, or rather, "don't knock it unless you have any idea what you're talking about."
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