| Author |
Topic:
Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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BartSimpson-SithLord
Registered:
Jan '02
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Date Posted:
4/1 6:54pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Jedi_Master_Ron posted:
I resent that, BaSSiL. For one, very few advanced techniques were glitches, very few if any were naturally advantageous to learn, and overall they sped up and added a great deal of depth/replay value to the game. I think the phrase "don't knock it until you've tried it," is appropriate here, or rather, "don't knock it unless you have any idea what you're talking about." 
BartSimpson-SithLord posted:
Of course, these are just my opinions and are heavily steeped in sarcasm. So, take them for the most perfect facts that they are.
But, in all seriousness, at least wavedashing was a glitch. Why else would it've been taken out if it wasn't? Oh, and the thought to be advanced technique(s) found at E for All that were suddenly absent from the final game? Glitches. I won't discount that there are some advanced techniques, but I get tired of the hardcore tourney scene trying to say that exploiting glitches makes them elite.
But like I said, when I talk about tourney**** I only mean the most hardcore of players and, again, what I say is steeped in heavy sarcasm.
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Touch the untouchable, Break the unbreakable. ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWA
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Smash Bros. Brawl Code: 0817-3441-6684
No. Not even in the face of armageddon. Never compromise.
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/1 7:17pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
- Date Edited:
4/1 8:43pm (6 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master_Ron
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I'm going to have to apologize in advance if my tone comes off as hostile in any way. This subject is somewhat of a touchy one with me, because I've had this debate before with more ignorant, more arrogant casual players than you.
BartSimpson-SithLord posted:
But, in all seriousness, at least wavedashing was a glitch.
Nope, at the very, very most it was used in unintended ways/an exploit. The sliding animation that ensues after you air-dodge into a flat/slanted surface was almost certainly intended; it even had a programming name. It was called "wave land special" by the designers; it's all in the debug menu.
BartSimpson-SithLord posted:
Why else would it've been taken out if it wasn't?
That logic fails and we both know it. In that case it seems Mewtwo's inclusion in Melee was unintended as well then? There were several aspects of gameplay that were removed in the Melee/Brawl transition, and Sakurai even stated himself why wavedashing and other advanced techs were removed in the Iwata Asks article, and it was because he wanted to "close the gap" between casual and competitive players, which in my opinion was a mistake. It's not going to happen by removing a few techniques and slowing down gameplay, and overall the move only hurt Brawl as a whole by making it more of a shallow fighter.
BartSimpson-SithLord posted:
Oh, and the thought to be advanced technique(s) found at E for All that were suddenly absent from the final game? Glitches.
It doesn't matter. Even if they were glitches (which again, isn't proven by their absence), to label all glitches/exploits as unfavorable aspects of gameplay is ignorant. Advanced techniques did nothing but enhance gameplay in Melee.
For instance, take a look at wavedashing. That technique opened up new, more efficient ways to space and with it more potential mind-games that go hand-in-hand with the technical aspects of gameplay. From there, the technique evolved and branched out into several other new techniques (wave-smashing, wave-landing, wave-grabbing, etc.), which only added depth to the game. The technique itself was not naturally advantageous to anyone, as I said before. You needed to understand the technique and its use, then practice putting it to that use in a competitive environment for it to be any use at all. Essentially it was like any other technique in that sense, though harder to learn/use (thus the phrase, "advanced technique"). Because it was not naturally advantageous to anyone, it did no harm whatsoever to the game, and because it added depth and sped up gameplay, the only thing wavedashing did for Melee was enhance gameplay.
BartSimpson-SithLord posted:
I get tired of the hardcore tourney scene trying to say that exploiting glitches makes them elite.
Straw-man. These people represent maybe one-hundredth of the competitive scene, and they're called competitive elitists. Most of the guys you'll find at tournaments are great guys.
Actually, I've found that casual players (when interacting with competitive players) are generally the more negative/arrogant than competitive players. There also seems to be more casual elitists than competitive ones.
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BartSimpson-SithLord
Registered:
Jan '02
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Date Posted:
4/1 8:03pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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No, I wasn't saying everything not included in both Melee and Brawl = glitch. I'm saying it was deemed an unfavorable aspect of gameplay found in Melee that Sakurai and his dev team took out for Brawl because it was exploiting a glitch in the animation. The inclusion/exclusion of an aspect of the fighting engine is a whole lot different than not including some characters from version to version.
And I know I wasn't speaking about the entire tourney scene. I have friends who claim to be at least casualy into the tournament scene/even fairly heavily into the scene. They go to my Anime & Manga Club at my school. But I was talking about the 1% you were talking about. Who are very annoying. Most tournament players need to realize that a lot of sarcasm aimed at the tourney scene isn't aimed at the "normal" players but at the 1% who react to the sarcasm in the most hilarious of ways.
It is to them that I say "Tires don't exist".
-----signature-----
Do the impossible, See the Invisible. ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWA
Touch the untouchable, Break the unbreakable. ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWA
ROW ROW FIGHT DA POWA
Smash Bros. Brawl Code: 0817-3441-6684
No. Not even in the face of armageddon. Never compromise.
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Obese_1_Ka-Blooey
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/1 8:22pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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I keep on forgetting the removal of moving air dodges, which leads to SDing a lot...
Does anyone besides me have a slight problem with the wall jump sensors? Meaning, I often get stuck to walls when I'm trying to either fall or rise.
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California Football: 3-1 (1-0 Pac 10); Next game: October 4 vs. Arizona St.
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/1 10:46pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
- Date Edited:
4/1 10:52pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
Jedi_Master_Ron
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BartSimpson-SithLord posted:
No, I wasn't saying everything not included in both Melee and Brawl = glitch. The inclusion/exclusion of an aspect of the fighting engine is a whole lot different than not including some characters from version to version.
No, I know. I was just making a general analogy. There were physics and gameplay mechanics that were removed as well, and to speculate on why they were removed/changed in the transition just seems pointless to me is all.
BartSimpson-SithLord posted:
I'm saying it was deemed an unfavorable aspect of gameplay found in Melee that Sakurai and his dev team took out for Brawl because it was exploiting a glitch in the animation.
And I'll hate the development team forever for that. Until I remember that they designed Brawl. Then I'll probably just end up confused.
BartSimpson-SithLord posted:
And I know I wasn't speaking about the entire tourney scene. I have friends who claim to be at least casualy into the tournament scene/even fairly heavily into the scene. They go to my Anime & Manga Club at my school. But I was talking about the 1% you were talking about. Who are very annoying. Most tournament players need to realize that a lot of sarcasm aimed at the tourney scene isn't aimed at the "normal" players but at the 1% who react to the sarcasm in the most hilarious of ways.
Elitists in general are extremely annoying; I can't stand any of them. Though have you ever thought about getting into the tournament scene yourself? You're probably the best Pit I've played thus far, and you didn't camp or spam arrows like most of the other Pits I've played. The Brawl tournament scene is still in its budding stages, so you could check out a few guides on SWF and learn a few techniques and you'd be pretty much set to go. Like I said, you're Pit is good enough that, with a few subtle techniques here and there you could become a large competitor in small amount of time as soon as you become familiar with the level of play you'll be competing at.
BaSSiL posted:
It is to them that I say "Tires don't exist".
Wha...BaSSiL knows a Smash inside joke? You've already half-integrated yourself into the competitive Smash community.
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Isai is too good,
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epithree
Registered:
Aug '06
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Date Posted:
4/3 12:06am
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Jedi_Master_Ron posted:
Either Brawl or Melee (favorite game, that is). Right now I like Melee's gameplay a whole lot more than Brawl's; and gameplay makes up the core of every game. Melee's gameplay was a lot faster-paced and the advanced techniques added tremendous depth to the game. The skill gap amongst higher level players in Melee was a lot larger too; in Brawl there's not a whole lot separating a skilled competitive (bolded to avoid any misunderstandings) player from a decent one. This is probably only because the game's relatively new, though that fact still bothers me. Brawl has so much more content/replay value though, so I'm not sure which one I like more right now.
Wow... brawl or melee... your favorite of all time? u are truly a smash fanatic. u mean u have them ranked higher than pac-man?
i agree. melee's gameplay beats brawl's. The faster pace certainly generated a more tolerable skill gap. Button mashing never truly became an issue with melee. 
Thanks for the tremendously detailed response. i bow to your smash knowledge.  if i ever need a reason to like brawl a bit more, i shall refer to your informative reply without delay. no doubt! how can i not like it better already?
~e3
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
4/3 9:25pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
- Date Edited:
4/3 9:26pm (1 edits total)
Edited By:
The2ndQuest
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SSE spoilers...
OMG! Evil Gwildor is ROB!   That's awesome! It makes the story of SSE sort of ROB's story and... man, now I want a new ROB game- "The Adventures of ROB, the Melancholy Robot" 
Now, onto subspace...
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Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Obese_1_Ka-Blooey
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/3 10:03pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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How long has it taken you to get that far?
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
4/4 10:38am
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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I think my count is around 5-5:30 in play time, but I only have a couple hours 2 or 3 times a week to get in some good amount of gaming, and my SSE progress has been interspared with lots of online matches
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K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Jedi_Master_Ron
Registered:
Jan '06
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Date Posted:
4/4 3:58pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Speaking of which, I guess I should mention that I added you to my Friends Roster, Quest (or at least, I should have). If you decide to add me back, just notify me and we can set up a match sometime.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
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-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
4/4 7:45pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Will do.
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K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Darth_Omega
Title: Substitute RICHARDSON
Forum Feud Champion
Registered:
May '02
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Date Posted:
4/7 3:48am
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Is it me or is Meta Knight the biggest noob friendly character in a fighting game?
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Aragorn327
Title: Manager Emeritus
Registered:
Aug '01
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Date Posted:
4/7 5:08am
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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He's up there, but I've generally seem more noobs aiming towards The Yellow Rat I Hate, given ranged attacks and Thunderbolt.
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The2ndQuest
Title: :
-Games
-LACWAC
-Lit Mod of Death
Registered:
Jan '00
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Date Posted:
4/7 10:08am
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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Yeah, Pikachu is more damaging for a noob fighter, especially with the thunderbolt. Meta Knight is fast and rapid but doesn't do enough damage to be much of a threat, generally, unless the player is already experienced, though he's effective against certain characters sometimes.
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K'Kruhk, 140 ABY: "Why haven't I come forth earlier to share my Jedi knowledge with Skywalker?
Well, it's kinda a long story, see, I had this freaking sweet hat..."
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Rouge Null
Registered:
Apr '00
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Date Posted:
4/7 5:52pm
Subject:
RE: Super Smash Bros: Brawl
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**** the Shock Mouse
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