Fanclub Oya manda!: The Mandalorian/Republic Commando Fan Club

I agree with Rob on the idea of a 'true Jedi'. I think it is very difficult though on a galaxy where showing your Force sensitivity equals sudden death. Not sure how you'd go about being a true Jedi, maybe like Altis did - in hiding. Or helping without people realising you use the Force.
Still, I cannot blame anybody who'd rather be alive than a Jedi. It take an enormous inner strenght and courgae to face death like that.

I don't think you can be a Jedi and a Mando at the same time. Mandos are mercenaries and Jedi are supposed to be impartial and helpers of thsoe who cannot afford help. I think the borders are flent, though. Bardan is helping some people, which makes him better than just hiding out, but not really a Jedi. Not sure where that puts Kenobi, though. He's on a kind of mission but is he still a true Jedi? (Do we know if he uses his abilities to foster peace and such on Tattooine?)

Personally, I'd rather be a Mando because being a true Jedi is such a vocation that it needs more conviction and strength than I have.

 

With Bardan being a true Jedi I guess I meant that he was true to his Jedi convictions with regards to the reasons he left the order, IE the use of a slave army. His actions afterwards to me are still somewhat those of a Jedi, because he used his limited influence and power in an attempt to help all the other clones, many of whom he had never met. As time goes on he of course does become more and more Mandalorian. Yes he was a follower, but he did make Skirata's crusade his own and I think we all agree it was a worthwhile mission. The same really applies to Obi-Wan. Post purge, the Order is destroyed but he is still around to "look after" Luke. He is basically behind enemy lines on a vital mission, he cannot afford to let his "jediness" be known, so he can't help those who may need it.

I think part of why the PT shook my "faith" in the jedi way was that I had thought of the Jedi as being much much more independent they they actually were. I imagined that a Knight would roam the Galaxy looking for people to help, doing good deeds and meditating on the force. They would be a "group" very small in number and loosly organized, basically just force weilders who had the same basic philospohies. So small in number that some would even consider them a myth. I didn't think there would be any jedi council, especially one based on Coruscant. I figured that if a Knight found someone strong in the force, he would begin to train him or her if they wanted. Now I hadn't read any EU stuff prior to the PT coming out, so even than I know now my assumptions were wrong. But seeing the organization that the jedi were just really struck me as a group that I didn't like anymore.

Sorry for the rant, I am just thankful that KT fleshed out the Mandalorians they way she did. Or else I would be Sith fan instead!

 

The difference for Obi-Wan and Yoda being that they were fostering a grand plan to save the galaxy from the Sith, while Bardan - well I dunno but I suspect if the Sith left him be he'd do the same for them.

To me Bardan is someone who wanted his own life, he didn't want to be a Jedi anymore, he didn't want the responsibility that went with the title. He just wanted to be Bardan.

 

Yah, I didn't think the Jedi were some kind of government body either. It was surprising and the way it worked shocking. I ahd also expected restless warrior-monks travelling the galaxy with a mostly informal network and organisation. YOu get your stuff done well and you name gets out. You find a possible apprentice, you teach him. You don't get along with the apprentice, you get word out and somebody will come and take over.

I didn't mind that there were so amyn of them. Even a few millions are not much compared to a whole galaxy. If they are all on the move somewhere, maybe with safe houses or such to meet like a guild or something, there is still a chance they are somewhat obscure.

The problem I had with the PT order was exactly that it was so unlikeable. Their fall was not a drama anymore.

But I also think that being a Jedi is a great responsibility. Being a Jedi means working for the greater good. Always. Regardless.
I can understand if you'd rather not. But then you can also not call yourself a Jedi. With power comes responibility.

 

I suspect you are right on that. So long as the Sith didn't bother him and his clan, he would probably leave them alone. I think Bardan basically grew tired of the hypocrasy of the Jedi, and as you say he wanted his own life. The Mandalorians provided that opportunity, while also giving him a new group that he could belong to. It sounds weird to say it but giving up the Jedi Order, was at the time the Jedi way. Once he gave that up, he became a Mandalorian, because he was the type he had to belong to something.

Lanna, I agree with you 100%

 

Lanna, I'm surprised that you would ever say that. I expected more from you. ... Mandos aren't mercenaries. Not always. That is a stereotype. It's just one of the jobs they tend to gravitate towards. However, being a Mando does not necessarily mean being a Mercenarie. Being a Mandalorian is, more than anything else, just being part of the culture. If you just follow their philosophies and general culture you are a Mando, so, it is theoretically possible to be a True Mandalorian as well as a true Jedi, however it may be difficult.

I also have to agree with Rob that Bardan wasn't a true Jedi after he left. Regardless of how he did do some good and helped those he cared about [i.e. the clones, clan Skirata, whever else they might take in, etc...], that's ALL he did. Being a ture Jedi would involve helping those you don't know, those whom you could care less about. In fact, it is about caring for and about everybody. With Yoda and Obi, also like Rob said, even though they might not have actually bee doing *much* what they did was IMMENSELY important and, in the end, was for, and effectively helped everyone- the entire galaxy. Their mission was to help and aid Luke [Obi-Wan specifically to make sure nothing would happen to him until he could be trained] into becoming a Jedi so that he could defeat Darth Vader, the Emperor, and then the Empire. So they did serve a higher purpose and effectively sacrificed their lives for the betterment of the whole galaxy, something Bardan did not due.

So, whilst I think in the end that Bardan is a good guy and did help some people, I ultimately found his reasons for leaving the Jedi order weak and idiotic, he was selfish in ways that I don't think he understood, and was not a true Jedi. He lost the right to that title when he lost the motivation to help anyone outside his circle of friend.

 

I think Bardan's biggest reason for leaving the Order was their use and acceptance of a clone/slave army. He felt that this was a betrayel of their own standards and he couldn't stand the hypocrasy any longer. He felt the Order itself had lost its way, and thus felt justified in leaving. After all if the Jedi could betray their own morals for their own ends, why not betray your obligations for your own sense of morality? I think Clan Skirata just gave him the out he was looking for, someone else to join and still give him a cause to follow.

Besides the Jedi Order didn't condone the helping of everyone as most of us had believed. In Episode I we have Qui-Gon telling the Skywalker family that he hadn't come there to free slaves. He only freed the one slave who suited his purposes. Even after their return to the council, no one seemed to care about the slaves on Tatooine. They abandoned them and their high ideals, I am assuming because of political expediancy. Not the actions of a group to whom serving the light side of the force is supposed to be paramount.

As for the stereotype of Mandos being mercenaries, I agree. Though it does tend to be a profession that Mandos do gravitate towards. We even see it in the RC series, there are Mando farmers and bartenders and such who can probably still fight, they just chose to do something else, at least for awhile. Another one that bothered me occured in Episode II. When Jango "darted" his assassin (I forget her name) and than jetpacked off. Obi-Wan immediatly referred to him as a "bounty hunter" to the Jedi Council. How would he know Jango was a bounty hunter? Just because he was a Mandalorian? Not every Mando is a bounty hunter either. He should have just been identified as a Mando, or even another assassin, not a bounty hunter.

 

To me 'Mando' always implies armour. And then it is not far to mercenary or soldier for hire or whathaveyou. Personally, I have no problem with that.
Also, Mando farmers are boring to write about.

 

First of all,tbh, using a clone army to fight is, in a way [a significant way] then sending normal citizens. The Normal citizens would already have lives, family's, careers, etc... If they were to die in war that would be a horrible thing for many people- friends, family, employers, etc... Where as with the clones their deaths only matter to fellow clones, and some of their trainers. But at least they had a chance at some life as opposed to never even have existed, so, you could say that it's a win win scenario for everyone.
Also, Bardan could have done A LOT more good being a Jedi,fighting in the war or doing other Jedi things. Not only would he help more non-clone/Clan Skirata people, but he would also help a lot more clones. Also, the order hadn't lost it's way. Sure, it was siding with the government, but it was siding on the side which [in their opinion] was the more moral of the groups. Their role was to protect the [citizens of the] Republic and make it a better system. Where as the government might have been corrupt [a lot more than they knew] there were a lot more members of the republic than the Separatists, and a lot/most of them were innocent, plus the Separatists were originally formed by a bunch of "wealthy business people and politicians" [quoted wookieepedia for fun ] which doesn't sound like the basis for a good government. So, they were protecting the current system and billions upon billions of innocent people and siding with the side which was the better option [and let's face it, they HAD to choose a side, they couldn't not have]. Now, the Order wasn't perfect, it was pretty good.

And yes, clan Skirata DID give him what he was looking for- a nice, comfortable, happy life. An escape from the war. A cowards way out. He quite to go have fun while all his other ex-fellow-Jedi were out there fighting, helping eople, and helping Clones. And I mean, if helping clones was what he wanted to do, he shouldn't have quit.

As to not helping the slaves, that WASN'T what they were there for. They were on another mission which they had to complete. Also, they HAVE helped many people very similar to those on Tatooine, but they can't help everyone, some people ultimately will be left out. So, obviously, they won't help EVERYONE, but they TRY to help everyone. They help as many people as they CAN. Which the actions of a group to whom serving the light side of the force is supposed to be paramount.

 

War should be (and is) a terrible thing. It really is politics by other means, and those means are violent. Without the loss of life the political will to continue fighting can never be lost. Negotiations would never take place and war would go on indefinatly. Surely the Jedi would not condone that. To truly serve the light side the Jedi could have and should have sat out the war. By distancing themselves from a corrupt government they would have gained a moral high ground that those on both sides would have respected. I am talking about those individual planetary governments, not those under the total control of either Sith. They could have used that moral authority to attempt to draw down the confrontation, begin negotiations and address the greivances that many populations obviously had with the Republic. Granted, they would have been unsuccesful, but only because the Sith were playing both sides, the Jedi didn't know that. Instead they threw their weight behind a corrupt and dying Republic, because that was where their loyalties (and power structure) lie. Their loyalties should have been with the Force, not any one government.

Bardan's leaving the Order was hardly the act of a coward. He took on missions going up against the Chancellor himself, something they already knew was just as dangerous, if not more so, than taking on the CIS. As for helping Clan Skirata over the GAR? By joining in with Kal, Bardan was helping to give every clone a normal lifespan, and from what we had seen, many clones certainly wanted that. The GAR would simply have ground thgem to dust in combat, and who would care about that? As you have already stated, no one of any consequence. So by leaving and taking part in the missions that led to a cure for the clones accelerated aging, Bardan helped out the clones at large more than any other Jedi. Besides the creation of a slave race (and thats just what the clones were) is such an inherently evil act that there really is no justification for it. If they had just been "organic droids" without sentience I could have understood, but that was clearly not what they were. The Jedi should have seen that. I have a feeling a huge majority of the Clones would have volunteered anyway, but they would have at least been given a choice. If a draft had been issued, it may mitigate such a volunteer army, but there was no draft. Only slavery.

Qui-Gon and company were of course on a mission already at the time of their visit to Tatooine. But what was stopping them from going back afterwards? Serving the light side of the force meant that they should have fought evil wherever they encountered it. You say they should try to help everyone, but won't be able to. I agree with that, but they didn't even try. How difficult would it have been for the Jedi to break the slavery on Tatooine after the events of Episode 1? Even if they helped just a few? Instead the Jedi Order sit on their ivory tower and deem who is worthy of being saved. Expediant? Yes. Truly following the light side? I hardly think so.

 

To be fair Bardan did end up helping Jedi, as well as clones, escape the Empire. If he hadn't left the Order when he did he simply may have ended up a victim of Order 66 like so many others.

To Qui-Gon and Tattooine, there was nothing Qui-Gon could have done to effect change there. Hutt rule and influence exists on more worlds than there are(or were) Jedi. Hutt Space itself maintains soveriegnty from the Republic and is largely ignored by the Empire.

I mean say there are a million worlds with slavery outside the Republic, but you've only got 10,000 Jedi - How does one possibly look to effect change there? They can't.

The Hutts and slavery was recently touched upon quite nicely in FOTJ Allies. It portrayed how complex the situation really can be by showing how their slavery system worked with Klatooine.

The majority of Klatooinians were accepting of their slavery and the benefits it gave their world and religion, which sounds strange to us no doubt as we look at the situation with our own definition of whats right and whats wrong. It was just a very interesting section of the book that put Jaina in a difficult spot. Check it out if you get the chance.

Also its worth noting that Qui-Gon did also save Shmi from slavery as well at a later date

 

First if all I'd like to say that in my last post I meant to say "First of all,tbh, using a clone army to fight is, in a way [a significant way], better and more moral then sending normal citizens.", but somehow I managed to miss out on the 4 most important words xO

You say without the loss of life nothing would happen, but there WAS loss other than the clones. Citizens harmed in battle. Planets/systems taken over. People/things destroyed, etc... the list goes on. Also, by your argument, the CIS should have one due to their robotic army (i.e. no loss of life). Of course that's not true either, soooo...

I still say the Jedi served in the most moral, most 'light-sided' way possible. The Republic was the better of the two sides, and that is who they served. They helped many an innocent person, saved many lives, and [tried to] stopped a much worse government from taking over, so, I'd call that a win in judgment.

Bardan DID take the cowards way- the comfortable way. And you know everything that clan Skirata accomplished? He didn't really help much- they could have done it all without him, save for maybe curing Arla, but in the long run she turned out his wife, so, yet again, a bonus for Bardan! He would have helped more clones by still being in the Gar. Many, many more. He also would have helped more non-clones [citizens of the republic, fellow Jedi, etc...].

Also as I previously stated the creatin of the clone army is not inherently evil at all. Infact, it is so thoroughly logical, moral, and al around such a good idea that it is completely justafiable. They had two choices: a) Send millions of innocent people who have lives, who have a place in the world, who's death would have an effect on many. They also wouldn't the greatest of soldiers and/or be very effective in winning the war for themselves. or b) Send millions of Clones who do not have much of a previous life or place in the world [except for the one they're granted by their very creation]. These people would care less themselves about their own death, as would most others. They'd also be much more effective soldiers, and have a higher chance of living [which, as far as anyone else knew, would allow them to leave the army, once their duty in the war was complete].
To me it seems like options 'b' is a lot better in every way. I'd call that justifiable.

As to the matter of Tatooine, Rob's right. Also:

This is very true, and even relatable to our very world. There are so many different, diverse cultures and customs that we can't even begin to judge. What may seem to us as barbaric, oppressive, brutal, sexist, or just down right terrible customs may, to those specific cultures, really not be that way at all. Our opinions are always filtered through our own society's concepts of right and wrong, which very from one group of people to another. Of course, most people don't understand this, which never ends well >.<
Anyways... back to the fictional worlds...

 

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree here Ducky. Because I see there is no way to convince you that the use of a slave army is wrong, just as you will never convince me that using a slave army is right. Creating clones and than asking them if they wanted to fight, that I could accept. Creating clones and drafting them (along with mongrels), while granting them full citizenship rights, that I can accept. But the creation of slaves? I cannot accept that, it is wrong. And any government that would do such evil deserves to fall. What if the Republic faced a severe shortage of those willing to work the fields? Would the creation of a clone force to work them be acceptible?

My point with the loss of life leading to negotiations is still valid. Yes, there were of course casualties on both sides, I never meant to imply that there weren't. But there would have been even more "meaningful deaths" if there had been no clone army used. The political will on the part of the Republic would have waned rather quickly and negotiations would have taken place. Granted that may not have been a great battle tactic on the part of the Republic, but as we all know, the Republic was rotten at its core anyway and should have fallen. The use of slaves to prop themselves up just shows how morally bankrupt they (and by extension the Jedi) had become.

You say it would be have been terrible for the Republic to use "normal" citizens to create an army. Life is life, whatever its origins. To imply that simply because a life began in a test tube that they should have no choices in life is, disturbing. Besides what was stopping the Republic from using droids themselves? There was no need to force sentient beings to fight a war that they had no say in fighting. Also where was it ever stated that the CIS wanted to take over the Republic? I may be wrong here, but I thought all they wanted to do was secede? The Jedi had every opportunity to take the moral high ground which they always lay claim to and sit out the fighting. It is that hypocrasy, to say they serve the light and than take control of a slave army that shows their moral bankruptcy. They had an attachment to the Republic, after they had preached that attachment led to the Dark side, in that they were correct at least.

Bardan was no coward, he located the doctor (I forget the name), in the Psych Hospital on Coruscant that led to the clone cure. He helped Clan Skirata on any number of occasions after his departure from the Order. Could others have acomplished the same goals? Sure they could have, but they didn't. Bardan did. To someone who had been raised a jedi since childhood, indoctrinated in their ways, he already had everything in life he was taught to want. Leaving what was known, what was safe, what he had always been taught was right, for what his own personal morality told him was right, was an extremly brave thing to do. It is also consistant with KTs work and some of the underlying themes of the RC series. The idea that personal choice is more important than programming.

Face it, the Republic and the Jedi Order deserved to die. What resulted of course was no better, but thats the fault of the Jedi. They lost touch with the light side, not due to Sidious, but through their own actions that corrupted their cause.

 

Both.
I think Ducky's argument plays wellinto your's Bardan.
Because the clones had no lives and were 'worth less' than normal citizens their deaths were not important. There would have been an outcry if the Republic had accepted the amount of losses they did sometimes with normal people. Families will protest and demand the war be stopped and the troops brought home.

So politically it was a very good thing to use clones. They fought betetr, and stirred no trouble. In the overall plan I think Skirata was not making much of an impact. Not sure if he could have even with his network for getting out clones working.

If the use of the clone army was a moral thing to do - I don't think so. I will try and work that one out on the grounds of Kant's categoric imperative and see what happens. I like that tool and it didn't let me down so far. Personally I say: I depends on who you look out for.

IIRC the Seps wanted to secede to start with, not sure what it amounted to in the end.

 

Ok, I finally followed Robimus' advice and yesterday I aquired Bloodlines, Sacrifice and Revelations. I had a 50% off coupon and figured even if I didn't like them, at least I got them cheap. Anyway, thats not a concern now, I read Bloodlines last night and I really enjoyed it! The "main" storyline was well written but really seemed like a re-hash of what we had already seen, the fall of a Jedi to the dark side. But the Fett storyline I truly enjoyed. So thanks Robimus! Now on the Sacrifice.

 

Ok, so now I finished Sacrifice. It was awesome to see little Kad as an adult, loved the bit about his armor too. Great to see Jaing and Mird and I am assuming that the old man was really my namesake here. The death of Mara Jade seemed almost anti-climatic to me, as did the death of Lumiya. Neither struck me in the way that the death of Etain did.

Yes Sinre, I am going to have to get Invincible now too. In fact I am thinking that after I read Revelation, I may just go out and get the rest of the LOTF series and read it from the beginning. So gloat away everybody, tell me "I told you so", you have converted me.

 

HAH! I told you so!
I personally found the Demise of Mara [as well as Lumiya, but to a lesser degree] to be quite striking. I was actually thoroughly upset when I read the results of their encounter =( I couldn't say it was any more, or less striking than Etain's though.

 

Yeah, I deserve that.

I think that Etain's death affected me more because when I first read that I was a relativly new father myself. I left the military six months after my little girl was born, because I couldn't stand the idea of deploying and she might never remember me. My unit was scheduled to be deployed later that year. My contract was up 3 days before our stop-loss date, so to re-up or not was something my wife and I had discussed quite a bit before hand. When Etain died, my first thought was that little Kad would never really know his mother now, it hit kind of close to home.

Also I finished Revelation about 20 minutes ago. Once again very good, especially our mando bits. I am really liking Kad'ika's philosophy on the Mandalorian people, and I loved the lessons to Jaina. I am going to wait until I get another 50% off coupon and than buy the rest of the series.

 

LIke Sinre mentioned, Invincible has Mandalorian content. The only other book I could reccomend from the series in Inferno - though there is not a Mandalorian to be seen in there.

To be fair a lot of people like Allston's writing where as I do not, thus his books are not on my must read list.

 

TBH I'm not a huge fan of Aaron Allston either- defiantly least favorite of the three LOTF authors- but I personally think the whole series is worth a read. I think tha if you'r going to read some of them, you should read it in it's entirety. Even the worst ones are good. =) But that's just me.P

 

I was originally just going to read the books written by KT because they would have the Mandos in them. I didnt realize that the last book also has Mandos until Sinre told me. Than I figured, since I will be reading the last book of the series, I might as well just read the whole series. I tend to be a completist, so this really shouldn't be that surprising to me. Guess I will find out whether I like the way they are written or not. I don't know if I have read any of Allston's stuff before, guess I will find out where I am on that one after I read the rest.

 

*pokes thread with bes'bev*

Anybody still around?

 

OW! If you are going to poke around with something at least use a proper beviin, getting stabbed by a warrior flute just doesn't seem as manly.