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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Saga Why do people hate the prequels?

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by QuiWanKenJin, Aug 5, 2010.

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  1. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 11, 2011
    ^ This

    I think the various Clone Wars animated episodes are a useful contrast against the PT. While they all had differing levels of George Lucas' involvement, they had other people making most of the creative decisions. You sometimes get the sense that these people were to some extent trying to "improve the PT" a la Mike Stoklasa.

    The original Clone Wars microseries was light on plot and heavy on action, edited extremely well so as to enhance the fast pace of the story. The first season of TCW was less extreme, but it had several OT-inspired elements, eg. the Twilight starship in the Millennium Falcon role, Ahsoka Tano and Padme Amidala alternating in the Princess Leia facsimile role, Anakin Skywalker being more of a slick hero of the Han Solo variety (apparently, the voice actor for Anakin was not even told he was auditioning for Anakin). I'd argue these were a reaction against the heaviness of the PT's plot, in particular the film which kicked off the whole Clone Wars sub-franchise in 2002.

    However, TCW evolved past this into something quite a bit more authentic to the PT. We now see Anakin experiencing and acting on his feelings of anger. We now see Obi-Wan feeling torn between his attachment to Anakin and his duty to the Jedi Order. We see intrigues between the Jedi Council and Chancellor Palpatine, and between Darth Sidious and Darth Tyranus. Padme is gradually evolving back into Padme and Ahsoka is becoming more reminiscent of Qui-Gon and PT-Anakin. We see the political side of the Clone Wars. The growth of the dark side is portrayed and the clone troopers' ultimate betrayal is foreshadowed. This is pure PT material.

    Being a PT fan (by most definitions), I greatly prefer the current iteration of the animated Clone Wars to all its predecessors. In fact, I generally prefer most recent TCW episodes to AOTC. They're ambitious, thematically complex, nuanced, filled with shades of grey and broad in scope, much like the PT itself. However, what they have and what the PT (particularly TPM and AOTC, and even ROTJ as well) often lacks is good acting/direction, a lightning fast pace and a consistent tone. This is the "improvement" to the PT that I'm interested in, not kneejerk changes to the overall story. Judging by how more closely George Lucas has got involved in TCW's development since 2009, this might even be what he feels as well. Who knows? He has admitted that dialogue is his weak point. Most recent TCW story arcs were written by contracted writers who were given a basic story brief by Lucas, and directed by contracted directors.

    If the problem was, as Mike Stoklasa suggested, the complexity of the plot and the nuance of the story, then the CW microseries and early TCW would have been damn near perfect, but in my view they definitely weren't. In my view, TCW only became superlative when it began to embrace the PT's complexity.

    I don't think making the PT a facsimile of the OT would have made it any better. As Mond says, this would essentially be cinematic "comfort food". I think there are many ways in which the PT could have been improved, but changing the underlying story is not one of them.
     
  2. Drewton

    Drewton Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jan 8, 2009
    In my opinion, the prequels are far from perfect, and are fundamentally flawed, especially aspects like Anakin's turn. I enjoy the prequels, but hope Lucas had taken more time to write all three before he started filming.
     
  3. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    May 16, 2010
    if the exact versions of the PT was released in the 80's they would be more loved.

    The time that it took for the PT to be released, and the OT sinking into the fans mind, created an obsessive attachment to them. That the new films have to be like them.

    case in point, ROTJ is viewed as a classic, though critically Revenge of the Sith is better reviewed. Yet because it came later, it is viewed as crap by these haters.

    I feel that the PT came out too soon. The real amazing CGI didn't start happening till Revenge of the Sith.

    The CGI in ROTS has aged very well. Some effects in TPM and AOTC have aged well too, but not the entire package.
     
  4. MrFantastic74

    MrFantastic74 Jedi Knight star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2010
    I both agree and disagree with things that you've written above.

    I agree that TCW has improved by leaps and bounds since it's inception:

    - The microseries was almost completely unwatchable, as was the Clone Wars movie.
    - The first season saw some improvement, but was still not good on the whole. I almost gave up on the series at that point, but I stuck it out.
    - Season 2 is when the series started making vast improvements, and IMHO, this had to do with character development. Cad Bane comes to mind as a breakthrough character that was introduced and developed well. But mostly, Season 2 was pretty bad too.
    - Season 3 was somewhat better than Season 2 although the Father/Son/Daughter storyline was horrible.
    - Season 4 has been the best season yet, and it contained the best episode of the entire series: "the Carnage of Krell". The m
     
  5. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 11, 2011
    Once again, MrFantastic74, we find ourselves both in agreement and disagreement. We'll probably end up agreeing to disagree and disagreeing to agree. :p

    Certainly, I agree with you that TCW is improving. Some people would dispute that. I didn't find the microseries or early TCW unwatchable or even bad, just inferior to the present iteration of TCW.

    I find one thing you posted to be quite interesting:

    It seems your argument is that the PT lacks character development and an interesting plot; the OT has this, and so does recent TCW. Ergo, recent TCW is like the OT, not the PT.

    I personally found the PT to be filled with character development and interesting plot developments. It got me latched onto the story and still has me to this day. Character development is not something innately bound to the OT and exempt from the prequels.

    That's mostly a matter of opinion. In fact, our shared belief that recent TCW is better than older TCW and the microseries is a very divisive opinion, with many Star Wars fans preferring the older material.

    Matt Lanter revealed in a 2008 interview that he was auditioning for the role of "Deak Starkiller", a "little combo of Han Solo and Luke", before he was told that he was actually playing Anakin. He also talks about how dissimilar the Anakin in early TCW was to the Anakin of the PT. Contrast this with recent episodes of TCW, where Anakin's character arc from the PT is delved into: slavery, fear of loss, lust for revenge, changing relationships with Obi-Wan and Palpatine, distrust of the Jedi Council.

    You mentioned the Umbara/Clone story arc, but I think there are similarities between this recent TCW story and the PT.

    As is being discussed in the PT forum's rebuttal to the RLM AOTC review, the characters in the PT are motivated by a deep sense of duty that goes beyond personal motivations (eg. Luke's desire to know and later save his father, Han's need to get Jabba off his tail). Obi-Wan has his duty to the Jedi Order and to Qui-Gon, later developing a fraternal/paternal relationship with Anakin. The other Jedi have their duty to the Jedi Order, naturally. Padme has her duty to her people and to the Republic's democratic ideals. Out of all the PT characters, Anakin is one of the few with the personal motivations you would expect from a "normal" character.

    In the TCW story arc in question, the clone troopers are definitely not "normal" characters. They are motivated by a deep sense of duty to the Republic, bound through their genetics to be loyal soldiers. Up to the final episode of the four-parter, the lines between "good" and "evil" are very grey. Captain Rex toes the line with his vicious general and so do most of the other clones, only to a much greater extent than Rex; they have a cold detachment reminiscent of the PT Jedi and even their ROTS selves as they execute Order 66. ARC Trooper Fives, a character developed since Season 1, is one of the only remotely "normal" characters in the 501st Legion, embittered and disillusioned by his experiences. Even he is motivated by duty to the Republic rather than a personal agenda. He interacts with Rex, like Anakin with Obi-Wan in ROTS, eventually turning him against General Krell. The battle lines are only drawn bet
     
  6. Mond

    Mond Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2009
    Only Mike Stoklasa has that power! [face_laugh]
     
  7. MrFantastic74

    MrFantastic74 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 4, 2010
    Indeed! I actually think we agree more than we disagree, but I'm more extreme on certain things and you are more extreme on others.

    Well then those people are "wrong". lol

    Not exactly. I was worried that I didn't express myself properly. The way I see it, both the PT and the OT demonstrate the important elements of character development and plot, however, the two trilogies lay a different proportion of emphasis upon each. I think the OT focuses more on character development and the PT focuses more on plot.

    Sure, the PT does demonstrate character development (as every story should), but the emphasis is more on the plot, which is considerably more complex than the plot of the OT. Some may argue that the heavy handed plot got in the way of what was important in the films, the characters (and believable dialogue, as well).

    The originals had a simpler plot, but much more emphasis was laid upon developing the ensemble cast. The writers were successful, as most of the main characters have become cultural icons. Of course, some may argue that the plot was too simple, but others retort that "less is more".

    I actually agree. I think I was unclear again in the above statement. I was comparing the old TCW material with the OT, and arguing that they show very little resemblance. I wasn't really talking about the PT.

     
  8. QuangoFett

    QuangoFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 11, 2011
    @ MrFantastic74

    Yes, TCW is becoming better, I believe. On that we are in agreement (overall, there's more that than disagreement), though I wouldn't go as far as saying those who disagree are "wrong" :p . In my view, "better" means like both the OT and PT. You can see elements of both in the series. The most recently aired episode, Bounty, had a bit of an OT vibe, which is probably why OT-only fan Simon Pegg was up for doing a voice in it. I liked it quite a lot.

    On "plot" versus "character", I think the PT has the stronger focus on plot because of what goes on in the story. The characters are in service to higher powers, like clone troopers on a grander scale. They go where the Jedi Council/Force/Republic/etc. tell them, or else do things because of their ideals and duties. Even maverick Qui-Gon feels compelled to do things because of duty to the Living Force rather than just personal belief. Of course, Darth Sidious is acting behind the scenes, bending most of them to his will without them even knowing it. Anakin is one of the exceptions and is a character with some much deeper personal motivations (resembling Luke in the OT). Obi-Wan and Padme develop aspects of their characters that are more "personal" thanks to their relationships with Anakin.

    I did notice this focus, but I never felt it was a bad thing. I thought there was plenty in terms of character development (eg. relating to Anakin, Padme, Obi-Wan, Yoda, even Sidious!) as well. I found the overall story and character arcs of the PT to be fascinating. My problems were with the execution - line delivery, tone, pacing, etc. - not with the story. The twists and turns of the plot are what I commend, the alleged plot holes being no more egregious than what was in the OT, and like Mond, I think slamming these sends the wrong message: that homogenity is good and convention needs to be followed or else the internet hate-mongers sink your business. IMO, George Lucas hasn't toed this line with TCW either, even though he has drawn on some of his older OT themes as well. That TCW has been good while going all "prequel" at times is, in my view, vindication of his creative decisions with the PT.

    It's a little unfair to consider the PT to be less "successful" than the OT because of the fact that the characters are less iconic. The OT was a cultural landmark, coming into a perfect storm of sociological factors that made its characters such icons. The PT was always going to be in its shadow, though it could easily emerge from it as the new generations (including the "TCW generation") mature. I judge the PT on its own merits, and on these, I think it's broadly good, even revealing new layers every time I return to it. It has flaws, even some that are more notable than those in the OT (overall), but not enough for me to discard it as bad.

    This is just my opinion, and you've done a decent job explaining yours now. Like TCW and the OT, how good you think the PT is is down to personal tastes, and mine are in line with the PT (and the other two as well). [face_peace]
     
  9. MrFantastic74

    MrFantastic74 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 4, 2010
    I was playing on the fact that many of the posts in this thread contain opinion that others have deemed "wrong". Or, more commonly, some posters are accused of stating that they believe another's opinion is "wrong", when all they did was express an alternate opinion. When discussing film/TV/art preferences, nobody's opinion is wrong. I believe you did pick up on my facetiousness, though.

    Agreed. It was one of the better episodes in my books. Not only was it action packed, but the action had interesting context. Most importantly, recurring characters experienced growth, most notably, Asajj and Fett. Newly introduced characters were also very interesting. Kudos to the writing team! As for Simon Pegg, I haven't followed the specifics of his criticisms of the PT very closely, but the impression I get is that he is a SW fan first and foremost. SW was a very influential part of his life, and although he may be very vocal about his disappointment over the PT, he has much respect for Lucas and the franchise on a whole. Sounds kind of like me.

    True that. But I think the scripts and dialogue in the OT were more successful on the whole than the PT, and the scripts are part of the reason why the characters worked so well. Due to the simpler plot, the OT films had both the time and room to manoevre to allow for dialogue elements such as witty banter between the main characters. Unfortunately for the PT, the dialogue was used mainly for exposition, to drive the plot forward. For some viewers, such as myself, this hurts the film as it makes it more difficult to relate to the characters.

    Agreed, except that mine are more in line with the OT.
    Cheers,
    MrF
     
  10. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    Because, as everyone knows, it (along with Spielberg's movies) ushered in the era of blockbusters and ruined the cinema forever. :rolleyes:

    I've also remember reading reviews of the originals (pre Special Edition) that mentioned wooden acting, stilted dialogue, thin plot, etc. So nothing has really changed except the originals have attained the classic status and are harder to attack.
     
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  11. Mond

    Mond Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 21, 2009
    That's worth repeating because people act as if that never happened. I was beginning to wonder if I had hallucinated the whole deal, as it seems to have vanished from accounts of the reception of the films in the years after their original release. Back then, if you were a discriminating cineaste, you weren't supposed to like Star Wars.

    The same kind of "cinephile" types who used to say "Star Wars ruined cinema!" are the one who are now trashing the prequels as a hobby. There has also always been a kind of geeky disdain/resentment directed toward Lucas by people who were into "harder" sci-fi stuff like 2001, Star Trek, Heinlein, etc. You don't hear it too often anymore, but prior to the late 1990s you heard it (and the aforementioned "ruined cinema" thing) very frequently.

    These phenomena seem to have been superseded by the "the first two movies in the series were good because Lucas didn't really make them" thing that has become the party line of would-be sophisticates. The bashing has always been there; it has just mutated a bit.
     
  12. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Chosen One star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    That argument doesn't even work. Lucas really did make ANH.
     
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  13. Thegoat

    Thegoat Jedi Master star 1

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    Jul 28, 2004
    Nope, Lucas was little more than a director-for-hire. Gary Kurtz and Marcia Lucas are the creative visionaries responsible for Star Wars. [face_beatup]
     
  14. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    Or, at least, no less loved than ROTJ which received its share of criticism initially and yet still considered to be better than the prequels (I personally think that, despite a few terrific scenes, it's the weakest of the bunch overall).
     
  15. BoromirsFan

    BoromirsFan Jedi Master star 4

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    May 16, 2010
    I thought ROTJ was considered better than ESB at first
     
  16. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    BF: I've always had the impression at least here that ESB is the reining favorite of 'the majority'. Personally, I like ESB least of the OT because though I can understand dark themes/tones, I don't like them. I've always seen ESB as rather dull.

    I don't 'hate' any of the SW films but I do think due to the PT contradicting the OT a LOT, that makes them inherently flawed. Though, that's not to say the OT is flawless. It isn't by far. I could go in-depth regarding my perceptions good and bad on all the films. I'd be willing to, if you'd like to hear it. Yet, I'd also like to hear your views positive and negative. However, if we do this might I suggest it be done via PM so we don't derail the thread?
     
  17. AmiraMalicious

    AmiraMalicious Jedi Youngling

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    Jun 5, 2011
    I do not hate the prequels, sure, the acting and some of the lines were corny, there was some of down time, but they add into the story and thicken the plot, giving background information and explanations one wouldn't get unless they read the books, played the games, ect.
     
  18. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    I think the reviews were worse for ROTJ than ESB (which was a mixed bag for many as well). Rotten Tomatoes did analysis of the original reviews (not SE) but it's not available any more. As for the general public, kids of course loved them but I've heard a lot of anecdotal stories about teens and older people complaining about it (even going as far as to say that it ruined SW for them). It's also possible that ESB gained more appreciation after ROTJ came out due to finally having a resolution.
     
  19. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 16, 2005
    Because it's cool and hip, the "in thing" - the first three were a huge hit, so the anti-sentiment kicked in. Happens all the time with all sorts of things. Backlash, whether or not justified.
     
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  20. DRush76

    DRush76 Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 25, 2008
    However, what they have and what the PT (particularly TPM and AOTC, and even ROTJ as well) often lacks is good acting/direction, a lightning fast pace and a consistent tone.

    I have to disagree with you on this. TCW is entertaining, but I certainly do not regard them as superior to the three PT movies. In fact, why was it necessary to have a Clone Wars series in the first place? I'll tell you why. Because the fanboys have been obsessed with the subject, ever since the topic was mentioned in ANH. And when the PT movies came out, many of these same fans had assumed that a great deal of the PT movies would be about the war. Why, I do not know. As far as I'm concerned, nly the beginning and the ending of the wars have any real impact on the story. And the reason for the series' lightning pace is due to the fact that the story is told in 22-30 minutes episodes. That's it.


    Now this is where I disagree with you. You have essentially stated that the series is improving becuase it is becoming more like the PT than the OT, as the plot is becoming more intricate. On the contrary, I think the series is becoming more like the OT in that the focus is much more on character development.

    Again, I disagree. I don't believe that the OT had more focus on character development. The characters in the OT were able to overcome their flaws and triumph. The characters in the PT screwed up in the end, which is more people actually do in real life. I noticed that people tend to praise fictional characters who triumph in the end, and at the same time, accuse writers of terrible writing, when so-called "heroes" make bad decisions and screw up in the end.
     
  21. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

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    May 21, 2008
    Well, why shouldn't they? The clone wars are another galaxy spanning conflict involving many different races and factions. Wars often open up space for many, many different plots which is why they are popular with filmmakers, authors, and so on.
     
  22. Gallandro

    Gallandro Force Ghost star 4

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    Jul 8, 1998
    Yes RT gathered print reviews of TESB and ROTJ, from 1980 and 1983 respectively, and gave them a Tomato rating based on reviews from the era. The Empire Strikes Back scored 52% and Jedi 38% if memory serves. Both films current Tomato ratings are based on the SE re-release and later home theater reviews.


    Yancy
     
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  23. MrFantastic74

    MrFantastic74 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Oct 4, 2010
    Character development is not as simple as overcoming flaws/ hardships to become a hero, or good people who end up screwing things up. That's what character arcs usually are comprised of, but character development is an expansion of a character so that they acquire more depth. When a character is developed, the audience better understands their motivations and their actions. A familiarity is developed; it's what makes a character liked, disliked, loved, or loathed. I think the OT did a much better job at this than did the PT.

    That is arguable. Yes, the OT had a plethora of misguided characters who triumphed as heros in the end: Luke was a down-on-his-luck farmboy turned hero. Han Solo was a self-serving scoundrel turned hero. Vader was a heartless and evil villain turned hero in the end. But that's just the OT we're talking about. I would not say that audiences in general tend to appreciate these sorts of character arcs. So many films that show a "good" people turning "bad" have struck a chord with audiences. The Godfather comes to mind. Micheal Corleone was unappreciative and regretfull of his family business, but he became the head of the family and arguably more ruthless than his father, Vito.

    As far as the prequels are concerned, the majority of the audience already knew Anakin was going to fail and betray his friends, the Jedi and the galaxy by turning to the dark side. This did not stop movie goers from paying to see the movie, nor did the plotline of Anakin's turn itself actually adversely affect critiques of the film. In fact, it's a plot line that many people were looking forward to (myself included). Criticisms of Anakin's turn stem from the manner at which it was portrayed. I believe that the Anakin character had not been developed effectively prior to the turn (opinion), and his turn seemed awkwardly rushed (opinion).
     
  24. Chiss_Insight

    Chiss_Insight Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jun 2, 2006
    Recently, a friend really expressed an issue with the PT in a logical, articulate manner:

    In ANH, while much of what Ben says about Anakin is only true "from a certain point of view", his words do paint Anakin as an amazing person and a true friend. In the same manner in which receiving only vague information about The Clone Wars was intriguing in the OT, so is the portrait painted of Luke's father.

    While ROTS is my favorite SW movie, and my favorite movie of all time for that matter, I don't believe that Lucas successfully turned Anakin into a character that met our expectations. His purpose in the PT seems only to be to fall from the light, to finally fill in the gaps of the audience?s understanding of how it happens. During the course of his serving that purpose, I don't know that I ever really came to like, or care about Anakin.

    My friend also shared an interesting bit of info: Apparently in the novelization of ROTS, Anakin desperately wants onto the Jedi council because he believes he will be made a Jedi master, and that means having access to the Master's Archives. Anakin believes he can find information to save Padme in the Archives. When he is put on the council, but denied master status, he is devastated. In the film, it just looks like his ego is bruised. It's small choices like that which lead to Anakin simply not meeting expectations as a character based on what little we were told about him in the OT.

    I am a huge PT fan. The build-up and release of each of the three films was one of the entertainment highlights of my life. There is a lot I love about each of the three movies. However, in this important respect, the movies don't quite get there.

    Not hitting the mark in crafting Anakin as a character about which the audience cares contributes to people disliking/hating the PT.
     
  25. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    "Caring about a character" is very subjective, which is why statements such as "the audience" doesn't care about the character are misguided. None of us knew every single person in the audience; not even close.

    Personally I came to care more for Anakin through the prequels--and I already cared about him through ROTJ.

    I agree regarding the novelization--it ran circles around the film because a very important aspect of understanding Anakin's fall--his inner thoughts--didn't translate well to screen.
     
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