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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

JCC If there is a God, then why is there evil and suffering?

Discussion in 'Community' started by Ghost, Sep 11, 2012.

  1. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    I've had very vivid dreams, so I know that Falcon really thinks she experienced these visions as they felt very real at the time. That she can't differentiate them from reality is what worries me.
     
  2. Mar17swgirl

    Mar17swgirl Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2000
    Yeah, but living in social groups doesn't really equal having a moral code. After all, there are many animals who live in social groups, and you wouldn't say that animals have a concept of morality, would you? :p
     
  3. Ramza

    Ramza Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Jul 13, 2008
    Primates do. Or have all chimpanzees just spontaneously found god?
     
  4. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    And also canines.
     
  5. Mar17swgirl

    Mar17swgirl Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2000
    Seriously?
     
    MASTERPRENN likes this.
  6. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Seriously. Here's the opening paragraph of the essay I listed earlier:





    Homo homini lupus

    —“man is a wolf to man”—is an old Roman proverb
    popularized by Thomas Hobbes. Even though it permeates large parts of
    law, economics, and political science, the proverb contains two major
    errors. First, it fails to do justice to canids, which are among the most
    gregarious and cooperative animals on the planet (Lorenz

    1954
    ; Schleidt
    and Shalter

    2003
    ). But even worse, the saying denies the inherently
    social nature of our own species.
     
  7. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    From what I've learned in my rather small study of primatology (2 classes in college), apes have displayed some evidence of basic morality.
     
  8. Ghost

    Ghost Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Oct 13, 2003
    I think dolphins, whales, elephants, crows, parrots, and dogs have done the same.
     
  9. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    Basically, highly social animals with sophisticated brains. Sounds like some people!
     
    Darth_Invidious and harpuah like this.
  10. Aytee-Aytee

    Aytee-Aytee Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2008
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    You'll have to read the essay to understand how wolves and dogs are social and take care of each other.
     
  12. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    yeah my dog has more advanced morality than at least 2/3rds of y'all
     
  13. Harpua

    Harpua Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Mar 12, 2005
    No, you don't know that. You can't base your assessment on her story based on your experience.

    Today she was 13 when it happened... yesterday she was14.
     
  14. Aytee-Aytee

    Aytee-Aytee Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2008

    But what about big-lipped alligators?
     
    Lowbacca_1977 likes this.
  15. mrsvos

    mrsvos Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2005
    What about my big a%^? What did I do to deserve this?
     
  16. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Sorry, the essay is about mammals, not reptiles.

    Hmm, details are changing--that's probelmatic. And the feeling of being 'held down' during a dream is pretty common, it's because our bodies become paralyzed during dreams so we don't hurt ourselves by trying to throw ourselves out of bed, etc. And we become functionally blind during sleep, too.
     
  17. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    sleep paralysis is an interesting phenomenon because its culturally known in some parts of the world but the modern anglosphere is not one of those places so english speakers tend to load their sleep paralysis experiences with all sorts of interesting imagery and meaning, typically around angels and demons or aliens, but sometimes even rape by loved ones, which is problematic as **** to begin to tease out from legit rape

    fun fact the term "nightmare" comes from "the mare (archaic equivalent of "old hag") that comes in the night". it harkens back to middle english explanations for sleep paralysis involving a witch coming and sitting on your chest in the night (for some reason)

    [​IMG]

    ^pictured: leekenobi posting in a good thread while dave looks on :p

    havent we had a few jcers describe instances of sleep paralysis and cite them as reasons for personal faith in the past? i feel like wormie and possibly arlon have done this. anyways, sleep paralysis experiences, whether involving a demon, aliens or bob's your uncle are supposedly extremely vivid and feel very real to the person involved. i wonder how many of these people have ever actually been swayed from their belief that calling for jesus saved them from the demon that was sitting on them choking them to death or whatever. i think it must be exceedingly hard to fight that kind of visceral, faith-based experience, especially in societies like ours where prior knowledge ("folk knowledge", as we anthropologists would say) of sleep paralysis is quite rare
     
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  18. Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi

    Lady_Sami_J_Kenobi Jedi Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Yes, but I learned of the phenomenon by reading about alien abduction stories. It seems that the demons/witches of old have been replaced with more modern imagery.
     
  19. Rogue_Ten

    Rogue_Ten Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Aug 18, 2002
    yeah, as i mentioned in my post the second most common explanation offered by individuals for their sleep paralysis experiences in the united states is "aliens"

    i kind of wish id had one of these experiences so id know what it felt like. alas, i usually dont remember my dreams to begin with...
     
  20. Darth Guy

    Darth Guy Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2002
    I remember dreams, some of which I can't stop thinking about for days. I talk and sometimes yell in my sleep. I've had hallucinations when I was half-awake. I frequently sleep walked when I was a kid. But I can't recall any sleep paralysis. :( Then again, I'd probably think it was entirely a dream if I remembered it at all.
     
  21. Mar17swgirl

    Mar17swgirl Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Dec 26, 2000
    I experienced a very vivid sleep paralysis three years ago. I went to bed after coming home from a night shift, and dreamt that I just woke up (everything looked real) and couldn't move for some reason - not even raise my head. I panicked, woke up with a start (for real) and jumped up, relieved that I wasn't paralysed at all. :p It was a very scary feeling, though, dreaming that I couldn't move.
     
  22. Aytee-Aytee

    Aytee-Aytee Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 20, 2008
    Psst...All Dogs Go To Heaven.
     
  23. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    So Mars, I gather you believe in god.

    So tell me, when we developed moral codes in pagan cultures prior to the onslaught of Christianity...

    Did those pagan cultures worship real gods who just disappeared when The Realest of Gods came along? Or is it conceivable that the reason Man linked his sense of right and wrong to a fabricated higher power was to ensure compliance with those ideals? A carrot and stick approach - the carrot is heaven, the stick is hell? No?
     
  24. imiller

    imiller Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Apr 26, 2004
    If you start from the assumption that God doesn't exist, or that specific truth claims about God are automatically wrong, why do you ask questions? Or are you more interested in disproving opposing viewpoints?
     
  25. Lord Vivec

    Lord Vivec Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Apr 17, 2006
    I've had sleep paralysis before. It's weird and crazy as ****. But it doesn't mean jack about the supernatural.
    It's a valid assumption to start with as there has been no empirical evidence for any supernatural events. This correctly places the burden of proof on anyone making the claim that god exists.