Lit A question on Karen Traviss and her work(s)

I didn't say it wasn't a good story itself -- but I don't think it fit within the plot of LOTF. Having her do a spin-off about Boba finding his granddaughter after Jacen kills her mother -- that would be pretty interesting. Including it in the series just felt like a needless highjack.

 

Uh, did you miss the scene between Yoda & the younglings in AOTC? Or the first episode of TCW? Or his words of wisdom to Anakin in TPM? Your description of Yoda is so far of the mark it's impossible to relate it to the character himself. Lucas did a great job of showing the ways in which the OJO had become weakened from within & without, but he didn't stoop to vilifying every member, turning them into easy targets. If the PT has any claim to make over the OT it is that it doesn't set up simplistic good-guys/bad-guys as the OT does. And when Anakin comes to Yoda in ROTS it's not some novice turning to the old master for guidance, Anakin knows the score, he's a Knight, a veteran, on the cusp of making the council (as Obi mentions later); that scene is one of the best written by Lucas - Anakin is looking for an authority figure to give him special sanction to indulge in feelings that are dangerous for a Jedi, since they are so much more powerful than the average person, and Yoda's telling him, "Hey, you know the score, this is what you've been trained for; I'm not your therapist or father confessor, get a grip, we're in the middle of a war and everyone is looking to us to hold the ship of state together." Yoda's not in the wrong there, Anakin's in the wrong, he needs to be set straight, as he demonstrates himself by his out of control selfish behavior not long after. It's a good lesson to learn, if a hard one, I'm glad Lucas put it in there. Sometimes in life we have to let go of even the deepest pain for the benefit of others - that's the Buddhist philosophy, benign self control to ease the suffering of others, as opposed to malignant self indulgence which causes others to suffer. Enlightened self sacrifice.

 

As othere have posted here, "Attachment" is almost impossible to avoid for humans - whether it is to a person (as with Anakin) or to an abstract ideal (as with Mace Windu's Attachment to the Republic).

The reported situation with Ki-Adi-Mundi (if substantiated) shows that there was a sort of double-standard in operation.

Also, I've long thought that the best way to have secured Anakin's support for action against Palpatine would have been to tell him that he was the one ultimately behind all the various attempts on Padme's life.

 

While I don't necessarily disagree, and do feel that the Mandalorian subplot was for the most part quite removed from the most central storyline—to a degree where at least one fan has compiled just the Mando storyline into a Word Doc, forming a coherent short novel all on its own—the fact that it was placed in one of the central, flagship series, allowed for it to reach the eyes of new readers. I've seen numerous people, a few on this forum and many on others, who had never picked up anything to do with the Mandalorians, had no prior interest in neither them or Boba Fett, and were unlikely to pick up material centered on them in the future. Yet mixed in with their regular reading preference, those same people found that they not only enjoyed the Mando content, but when they were finished, went looking for more, retroactively digging up other works they'd previously overlooked.

 

His species has a low birth rate.

 

The absence of one guy isn't going to lead to the extinction of the species though. And if "attachment leads to unacceptable risk of Turning- which is a disaster for the galaxy as a whole" then one would expect the Jedi to insist on it universally.

Wasn't Ki-Adi-Mundi's marriage and family established, in the comics, before the "Jedi don't get married" rule came up in AoTC? Thus- the "low birth rate" reason was introduced afterwards in an attempt to justify it?

 

He apparently had to be unattached from what Republic mentions. They more then likely had someone overseeing him

 

Yeah, Mundi was shown with a family (with which he was quite involved) in the first Republic comic arc, right when TPM came out. Then AOTC said that Jedi couldn't get married, and they leaned on the justification that he was given a special dispensation because his species needed to reproduce, and please don't look too closely at the nature of the relationship depicted in Prelude to Rebellion.

Amusingly, Mundi was also at the center of the "How were we to know?" Jedi retcon for ROTS, as he had earlier been established as being the only Jedi Knight on the Council during TPM. Once ROTS established that Masterhood was a prerequisite for the Council, the retcon was introduced that he was in the process of being promoted to Master when he was appointed to the Council, so he was technically briefly a Knight on the Council but not really.

 

For all the vitriol being placed on the Jedi Council for being unfair when it came to relationships, it needs to be pointed out that no Jedi is ever recorded as being expelled for having a relationship, getting married, or conceiving a child. It's a complete strawman criticism.

The Jedi expected high standards, yes, but they imposed no sanction on those who failed to live up for them if they were trying. Anakin's problems were not caused by the Jedi Council - his own flaws were enough to do him in. His fear of his wife drove him to join the Sith. Whether he was married or not was irrelevant - the problem would have still come up. He couldn't let go.

 

Mundi ALSO ended up being brought into the Jedi Order at a younger age than Anakin but still older than usual and Master Yoda himself took him as his padawan. I love Ki Adi Mundi. It's like he's constantly trolling Anakin with his existence. Bless his too-old-to-join, allowed-to-marry, knight-on-the-Council existence.

 

The EU should have called his home planet Remulak. It would have been perfect.

 

Ranik Solusar was punished- but not expelled.

Padme certainly seemed to be under the impression that Anakin would be expelled if their relationship came to light- that's why she initally refused: "You'll be expelled from the Jedi Order. I will not allow you to give up your future for me."

 

And then they made him Anakin's Master! I'd love a depiction of actual interaction between them. "Master Mundi, you're . . . married?" "Yeah, that's right."

 

Nejaa Halcyon (Corran Horn's grandfather) also had to keep his marriage a secret.

On the whole, I prefer Altis' (or Luke's) stance on the matter - do we have any known 'turners' from Altis' group for comparison?

 

Callista's boyfriend Geith didn't visibly "turn"- but he did abandon the mission on the Eye of Palpatine. Might qualify as "giving in to fear" - where fear is Of The Dark Side.

While Nejaa chose to keep his marriage secret- I think there's references to "Corellian Jedi" being given more leeway than most because of Corellia's family-oriented culture. Might explain why there have been multiple Halcyon Jedi- and the "Halcyon line" managed to gain a reputation of its own for lacking telekinetic powers.

 

"I Jedi" (1998) also predates AotC (2002)!

 

I was thinking more of splatbooks published after AoTC.

"Nejaa was married": I, Jedi
"Nejaa had to keep his marriage secret": Jedi Trial
"Corellian Jedi sometimes get more leeway"- I think books like Jedi Academy Training Manual, and others.

 

He was also the subject of a retcon for his presence on the Council during Jedi Apprentice when he shouldn't have joined until after Acts of War. I guess he was just filling in or something.

Also has anyone bothered explaining yet why Thracia Whatever from Rogue Planet was allowed to get married and have kids or why she doesn't count as one of the Lost 20 even though she was a Jedi Master who left the Order? Why are there thirty levels of retcons for the Conehead guy but none for this lady?

 

No idea- maybe Masters get cut more slack than Knights? Maybe it runs:

Padawan- must choose- relationship or Order- can't have both
Knight- may have long-term relationship/marriage with Order's sanction
Master- may marry at their discretion.

Thus- Ranik was penalized (being a Knight), Nejaa feared that he'd be penalized (being a Knight when he got married) Anakin feared he'd be expelled (being a Padawan when he got married)- Thracia didn't have to worry.

 

Published 4 years before AotC - according to the Wook and IMDB

Jedi Trial was published later. JATC as well (possibly the information in there is a retcon)?

 

Yup. Back then, there was no specific hint that Jedi couldn't get married. After AoTC- they had to explain marriages somehow- I think the "Corellian Jedi get exceptions" idea must therefore postdate AoTC.

Assuming Traviss's rather bleak picture of the Jedi is a case of "call it as they see it"- how did Traviss come to believe the Jedi were as bad as that, in the first place? What movie scenes did she get her ideas from?

 

Can't speak for Karen but I got my views of the Jedi(which are not as bleak as Karen's but still not good) from a combination of things. All the deceptions and untruths Obi-Wan and Yoda manipulate Luke with have always been an issue for me. Add to it Jedi turning a bling eye to slavery in Episode 1 and the use of an army of cloned humans in Episode 2.

Their entire concept of non attachment was flawed(as outlined in Stover's ROTS novel) and this is without the EU examples of the Jedi recruiting Lorn Pavan's son and then firing him from his job at the temple, as well as all of the issues surounding Jorus C'baoth and the Jinzlers.

I recognize that the Jedi did a lot of good as well yet from early on I was very skeptical about them. Lies were masked as differing points of view and seemed to be as natural to Kenobi and Yoda as breathing.

 

I also can't speak for KT, but I certainly didn't like Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan going round Mind Tricking all and sundry, whether it was their business or not!

 

Do we know if the IC2 cancellation (and/or the attempt to change the Mando culture) occurred during the time KT was writing LotF?

If so, 'shoehorning' her characters into LotF would have been a convenient way of giving them a 'final curtain' and their fans an inkling of what had happened to them all since IC1.