PT Rebuttal: RLM's Attack of the Clones Review

Anakinfan, I certainly agree with you on all points. However, I think you overestimate the weight "chicks like" statements hold. There are a lot of conflicting stereotypes, especially in that area - the pinch of salt is built in. Don't forget also, that his target audience is savvy enough to know a stereotype when it hears one.

You and PiettsHat aren't appreciating how much Stolkassa seems to understand Attack of the Clones! "They suck" maybe be the entire premise, but it isn't focused. It's just scattershot trashing of everything he observes with varying degrees of seriousness. Padme's "mixed signals" and Anakin's numerous "smooth moves" are important to the story. By pointing out all the dissonance in the development of Anakin and Padme's relationship, he explains the scenes very well! Whether he liked it or not, the movie made him think. We're supposed to feel stupid for Anakin when he apologizes for kissing her, and we're supposed to cringe when he tries to "excuse me" Padme in front of the queen. (Notice how Plinkett identifies Anakin's apologetic AND his domineering attitudes as turn-offs, and even makes a joke of it). We're supposed to notice how comfortable and casual her initial interest in Anakin seems in contrast to her clothes and choice of setting (and sometimes words), especially in front of Anakin's excruciatingly dramatic speech. We're supposed to wonder what's going on in Padme's head when she forgives Anakin for turning into a monster over the death of his mommy. In a lot of ways, he reads the film correctly, and it's fully appropriate of him to use relevant real-world stereotypes in his review because the movie itself faces head-on many of those issues which are so commonly oversimplified.

 

^Agreed, actually. But at the end, as much as he got it right, he criticizes it for being wrong, which it's not. Therein lies the stupid.

 

I've been watching AOTC in 45 minute "chapters" the past few nights and I have to say I've never enjoyed it more. I watched it at a friend's on blu last year but we skipped about 20 minutes of the movie and talked over it alot, it was just a visual pass to see how the disc looked and to check out the editorial changes. I haven't seen the whole thing through in about 3 years. Although I still think it's overly long & very flat, it does get better as time passes. The innocence of its youthful characters is starting to appeal to me. I was still in my 20's when it came out, now I'm almost 40, big difference; I find Hayden & Natalie more appealing now and it is easier to understand why they make such obvious mistakes based on their immediate feelings. And AOTC does bridge TPM & ROTS nicely.

Just thought I'd chime in. I myself won't ever watch the RLM review. I'm sure he tears apart things that are identical to the OT but since that wasn't directed by "fat/old/bad" Lucas it gets a free pass

 

He does that with TPM, he has a whole list of things you're not allowed to like about it! In his TPM review he even tells you you're not allowed to prefer it to ESB or you're a "f'ng idiot". Hey, guess what? I prefer it to ESB, which is about 90 minutes of filler and 30 minutes of story, is mostly about Han Solo doing just about nothing, and was shot by Kershner as if for television (1980 television!) and it uses more dry ice than the freakin' Ice Capades. But he does this to rob anyone who opposes him of a voice. He can even "legally" tell you to shut up 'cause you're a "f'n idiot" since you've overstepped one of his established "critical" barriers. This guy would last about 5 minutes in a real debate.

 

Episode V: Ice Capades...

If there's ever a long and humorous OT takedown on youtube, the above should definitely be worked in.

 

I believe this part of the debate is beginning to die out, so i don't have much to say about it.

But it was mentioned earlyer that George Lucas put Samuel L. Jackson as mace windu in just to please African American, I don't believe this at all what so ever, I am not an african american, and i LOVE Mace Windu, he does such a great job on him!

And as for the stereotype thing, i don't see much of that in the prequels, if anything watto, but that's all, and just because you make some one look like the media claims they are, doesn't make you racist, or even trying to stereotype people. Some times people are like the stereotype say they are, but then again, it's also the opposite way around!


No to stereotype any one, but, but I personally think redlettermedia is

 

And I still think you're still misinterpreting this guy's intentions. He's making fun of a movie with sometimes intentionally awkward and corny love sequences, not citing "traditional laws of attraction" or whatever to disprove a movie's believability. These reviews are more like Mystery Science Theater 3000, than say... Loose Change.

Good point here. For instance, the "asiany" Nemoidians are no doubt a reference to the bad asian stereotypes in the old Flash Gordon serials. Ming the Merciless being the most notorious.

 

Was that the end of the review?





Reviews don't last forever
/LM

 

Okay, based on my observations, it sounds like the tone of Redlettermedia's review ticked off people who liked the Prequels because he implies and sometimes outright says that people are dumb for liking them.

A fair point and he does come off as very heavy handed.

But I feel like he does have some pretty good points that are at least valid from a "certain point of view"

For instance: In the AOTC Review, he pointed out that the Trilogy never even says what a Sith is. While it's not hard to figure out, it would be nice for the movie to explain things. We didn't even know Count Dooku was a sith until the very end of the movie, until then it was just implied that he was a Dark Jedi who fell to the dark side and was even working against the sith.

The reason that such an explanation wasn't said or even needed in the OT was because we already knew everything that we needed to. The Empire were the main villains of the OT with Dark Side Emperor Palpatine as it's leader and Fallen Jedi Darth Vader as it's enforcers. The Actions of Vader (Choking friend and foe alike with his bare hands and the force, torturing Leia (A New Hope) and Han Solo (Empire), tempting and tormenting Luke to join the dark side, the Lando "Deal") and the Empire (Blowing up Alderaan unprovoked just to test the Death Star and being generally oppressive to their populace) were shown on screen as reasons why they're the villains. The OT didn't need to tell us about the Empire, it showed us what the Empire was with a clear lense.

The Sith are the main villains of the PT and since Palpatine is their master, then there's no question that they're evil. Except that we don't really understand what they are or what even makes someone a sith without the supplementation of the Expanded Universe. If you try to gauge what a sith is based on the movies themselves then it gets a little hazy.

Darth Maul hates jedi, wants revenge for the sith and kills Qui-Gon, got it. But why do the sith hate the jedi? What do they want revenge for? These questions that are never answered in any of the PT movies.

By AOTC, we suddenly see another organization rise up and we never learn that it's leader was a sith or was in cahoots with Palpatine until the end of the movie. In fact, we never learn anything else about the Sith except the aforementioned late-movie event. But we still don't know what a sith is! Would it have been too hard for someone like Padme to ask Anakin or Obi-Wan exactly what a sith is? Considering that she's encountered a sith at least once (twice if you count the Tatooine skirmish in front of her ship), she'd be a bit worried about a sith assassin coming to kill her after two attempts on her life. It wouldn't even need to be a complicated answer, just say that they were an order of force sensitives who use the dark side to try and rule the galaxy through power and scheming.

Then comes ROTS and this problem is kind of solved and complicated through Palpatine's actions and mannerisms. By now, it's bluntly obvious that he was behind the entire war before he just told Anakin and succeeds in seducing Anakin to the Dark Side. However, before he knew that Palpatine was a Sith Lord, Windu mentioned that the Dark Side surrounded the Chancilor. Considering that we've already to fight one dark side user (Dooku), why didn't they investigate Palpatine or bring this to the public's attention? Again, going strictly off of the movies. There's no way that the jedi wouldn't have been able to sense that Palpatine was at least Force Sensitive. So there isn't a rule that forbids Force-sensitives from becoming Chancillor? Isn't it well known that Force-sensitive people can influence and outright control other people's minds.

Some will say that Palpatine was clouding the force and disrupting the Jedi's ability to use the force. Then how come they can still use the force to run fast, jump, deflect laser bolts, sense when Anakin is in pain, sense when lots of jedi are dying, or sense the dark side around Palpatine? Shouldn't that disrupting in their ability to use the force also affect them in the physical sense and not just the mental or/and spiritual? If the force was so badly disrupted then how was Obi-Wan able to fight an enhanced cyborg jedi hunter who was wielding four lightsabers at the same time without the usage of the force?

Which also leads into another decent observation, the Prophecy is never really explained. All we know is that Anakin was meant to bring balance to the force. Before ROTS it's confusing because we're not sure that the force is in disbalance. There were only two sith and thousands of jedi throughout the galaxy, so wouldn't balancing the force imply murdering all but two of the jedi? ROTS tries to clear this up by saying, "Destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force." implying that the presence of the sith is in itself an imbalance. Then Yoda (Whose close to 900) mentions that the prophecy may have been misread. Okay...so what does the prophecy mean? Kill all jedi till the number of sith and jedi are even? Destroy all sith to remove a cancer in the force? Destroy both factions?

How do we know that the jedi aren't a cancer to the force? They're the ones who brainwash toddlers and infants into conforming to their code, condemn any expression of human emotion (Attachment, love, and grief for instance), are content to let the corruption of the Republic remain, and have no qualms with forging an alliance with a Well-Known Despotic Gang Lord who runs a galaxy spanning slave and drug trade.

So for the sake of discussion, what makes the sith the definitive bad guys without knowledge of Palpatine being one himself or his overall plot? Neither of which were revealed until the last movie anyway.

 

Aren't the RLM reviews just one man's opinion? How can you rebuke an opinion?

 

Since Palpatine is an old character from the OT, we are already familiar with what he is, what he will do, and why he's evil. He and his apprentices are the Dark Side counterparts of the Jedi, it's as simple as that. I don't see how we know less about the Sith based on the PT, which inherited all the information from the OT and took the extra step of naming them. Darth Maul says he wants revenge, and the Jedi speak of the Sith as extinct. As soon as the Jedi learn that there might be a Sith running around, they send Qui-Gon to draw him into battle and possibly destroy him. Therefore, it is implied that the Jedi wiped out the evil Sith some time in the past.

The Force is everywhere and in everybody. According to the prequels, the shroud of the Dark Side has been expanding throughout the galaxy. The Jedi go so far as to label negative emotions or even personal attachment as pathways to the Dark Side. Just because the Dark Side surrounds the Chancellor doesn't mean he's a Sith.

You are basically making up your own problems here. The movies never said that the Dark Side's disruption would disable all Jedi powers. It very vaguely says that their power has been generally weakened, and that the shroud of the Dark Side is hard to see through.

The Jedi themselves were portrayed as unsure about the specific meaning of the prophecy. That said, we know what Anakin's final destiny is, based on the end of ROTJ.

The Jedi clearly have no tolerance for the Sith. They were satisfied to live thinking that the Sith had been extinct for a thousand years, and they immediately seek to destroy any Sith who are discovered. They also seem to believe that restoring "balance" to the Force is a good thing. In AOTC, Yoda says that Sidious's power has expanded too much, disrupting everything.

It's very clear that the Jedi don't want numerical parity with the Sith (which would include their own destruction, which is insane), and see any traces of the Dark Side as an evil cancer that must be destroyed.

 

No, because Force-users are not the Force, and thus balancing the Force does not mean creating a balance of Force-users.

The Jedi seek to destroy any traces of the Banite Sith, which is equivalent to eliminating the growth of the dark side out of bounds. But when the Force is in balance, the dark side itself remains.

 

In terms of Count Dooku, I always thought that it was obvious that Lucas and company were trying to create some ambiguity about where his allegiance lay until the end of the film, where it became clear that he was a Sith. I didn't find it problematic to be honest.

I disagree. Although the pure motivations of the Sith aren't made clear until ROTS, there's plenty within TPM and AOTC to show us that they were evil. TPM showed us how the Sith allied with the Trade Federation to oppress a completely harmless planet, round up its inhabitants, starve them, and then ordered them to be wiped out. AOTC reveals how the Sith have engineered a war of galactic proportions -- the war beginning is according to plan, after all. These are not small crimes.

It's ROTS, then, that elaborates on why the Sith want the "revenge" that Maul described in TPM -- the Sith once ruled the galaxy but were driven to the brink of extinction. That's a rather simple, but effective, motivation I would say.

I'm sure the Jedi did investigate Palpatine as much as they could, but they are also fighting in a galactic-scale war. I think people forget about that. The Jedi are front-line commanders and we see many of the Council members go off-world to participate himself. Obi-Wan was a Council member, but he spent months off-world with Anakin fighting in the Sieges. Their focus is going to be on pushing the Separatists back. It's only once they kill Count Dooku and gain some stability that they are able to look into Palpatine, but by then it's too late. Plus, they have no proof, so bringing such an accusation before the public would likely backfire given Palpatine's popularity. Plus, why would you say the Jedi should be able to sense Palpatine's force sensitivity? Moreover, he could very well be shielding himself -- concealment doesn't seem to be an issue for the Sith. When Maul was standing ten feet away from Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, they were shocked when the doors opened and he revealed himself. I don't think they knew that Palpatine was Force sensitive and I see no indication from the movies that indicate they must have known that.

We get an answer to the Prophecy in ROTS -- "It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness!"

Pretty clear to me. Anakin doesn't fulfill it in ROTS, but he does in ROTJ. Destroying the Sith is the purpose because they are the imbalance in the Force.

I don't really see how what the Jedi are doing is any worse than what many parents do to their kids. We all grow up with societal pressures on us. That doesn't mean we are an "evil" society that deserves to be wiped out. Sometimes, yes, we must rethink our positions and tactics, but that does not warrant genocide. Is what the Jedi teach really any worse than almost every American family did in the 1950s by teaching that homosexuality was a mental disorder? Or parents who teach their children that if they are bad then they'll burn in hell for eternity? I don't really think so personally.

Is the Jedi's support of Jabba worse than the United States counting Saudi Arabia among its allies with how that nation treats women? And, just to note, in the prequels, the Jedi never interacted with Jabba, so I don't really see how that's relevant.

The Sith are the bad guys because:

--they support invading a planet with no army, rounding up its people into camps, starving them, and then putting down protests with lethal force
--they try to assassinate a galactic senator
--they start a galaxy-wide war to accrue more power
--they commit genocide

Seems pretty evil to me.

 

PiettsHat

Fair enough, but would a simple explanation about the sith be too much to ask for?

How about Qui-Gon tells young Anakin about the Sith in place of Midicholorians and then contrasts the nature and power of the sith with the code and honor of the jedi. This kind of explanation would also be more relevant to the Trilogy and to the Phantom Menace, allowing us to feel the full dramatic tension that Lucas wanted us to feel from the lightsaber duel between Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Darth Maul. We get more tense because we are fully aware of what's at stake...that this is the first direct confrontation between jedi and sith in over a thousand years.

Then again, the Ending Multiplication Effect in Phantom Menace would still muddle down the tension...

Basically, in his Phantom Menace Review, RLM says that with each release of Star Wars, they put in more events towards it's conclusion. ANH had 1 event; ESB had 2 instances; ROTJ had interconnected sequences; and TPM had 4 instances that don't translate well together and ruin the intended mood and tension of some sequences.

One minute, we're mourning Qui-Gon's defeat by Darth Maul; then we go to comedic with Jar Jar surrendering; then we go to triumphant with Padme upprehending the viceroy; then back to tense and dramatic with Obi-Wan getting knocked into the pit; then exciting and uplifting with Anakin destroying the control ship; then comedic with Jar Jar; and we end on a sad note with Obi-Wan mourning the death of Qui-Gon. Good or bad, it honestly screams poor editing, at least to me.

This is something else that I'd agree with RLM about. There was just too much happening at the end of that movie for us to feel whatever tension they were going for. In one instance, we have Naboo Starfighters battling for the fate of the planet while a 10 year old boy accidently takes his first step towards a great destiny; In another, The Jedi Master and Apprentice battle Darth Maul in a dramatic and bittersweet confrontation where the apprentice is left to fulfill the wish of his dying master; In the third, we have Padme and her guards fight through the Palace in a race to capture the Viceroy; In the fourth, Jar Jar leads the Gungan Army into battle with the droids leading to HILARIOUS Highjinks and Comedy!

If you mostly cut out the last two parts of this ending sequence, then TPM would've worked better. Only two of these sequences were pivotal to the conclusion of the movie's plot and to the Trilogy in general. Anakin destroying the Control Ship shuts down all droids on the plane, effectively stopping the Trade Federation and this is the first major incident where his force potential is shown; The Final Duel gave us the Death of Qui-Gon Jinn with Obi-Wan effectively taking his place as Anakin's teacher after proving himself as a Jedi Knight by (apparently) killing Darth Maul which also robbed the Sith Master of his Apprentice for a while.

What did the Padme scenes and the Gungan Army sequence add?

Nothing.

The Gungan Army drew away the main droid army, do we need to see that battle through to it's conclusion when it's relevance to the plot's conclusion has already been accomplished? Plus, most of that instance of the ending is spent with more pointless comedy antics from Jar-Jar. Oh look! He's surrendering to an army of droids who have invaded his world! Isn't that hilarious!? Okay...it was a little humorous...and some of his antics were so stupid that I had to chuckle at the stupidity of it all...in the end though, I could do without it. It was padding, pure and simple.

If Padme had captured the Viceroy, then what? The Droids are being programmed by the Control Ship and the only way to intimidate the Viceroy into ordering the droids to shut down would be through intimidation. Padme is tough, but I highly doubt that she would've threatened the Viceroy and even if she did, would it matter? Anakin destroys the Control Ship anyway, all we really needed to see was a short scene of the Viceroy being upprehended by a battle-scarred Padme and her guards.

 

Whether the separate parts of the battle appealed to you is your opinion. I enjoyed it myself, for showing the wide scale of the battle, which involved action all over the world in in different environments (the city, the plains, outer space). It truly felt like a real futuristic war with entire armies involved, not just a small scale fight with one or a few characters involved. Also, it gave something for everyone to do, which is not uncommon in ensemble movies. I thought that the final battle in ANH really screwed most of the cast. Luke got to do everything, Han and Chewie left the movie and come back for the last second save, and Leia and C-3PO just stood around waiting to either die or be saved. Thinking about it, I wonder why no one else points out Leia's complete side-lining at the end, when she was characterized throughout the movie as a tough cliche-breaking girl who was arguably better in a fight than the guys were.

Padme's scene was the central part of the mission to capture the Viceroy (which she planned), with the other parts just being diversions. It was her planet, and it gave her something to do besides just being a damsel in distress. It was also the conclusion of her arc in the movie, where she went from a helpless adolescent princess to someone who could take charge of things herself. That characterization carries into the next movie, where she was someone who wanted to do everything on her own, and felt lonely and distrustful toward others.

Jar Jar's part was my least favorite of the four sub-battles. Like many I am not fond of the character, and I thought his clumsiness was overdone there. But still, I would say that the basic scene did contribute to the movie. The mission is to take out the Trade Federation leaders in order to disable the droid army, and this part actually let us see that army in action. The droid troops would not be fighting in space, nor do I think most people would want to see them interfering with the lightsaber duel. The dying Gungans gave the battle some stakes, underlining how important it was for the other heroes to succeed in their parts of the battle. Also, it was part of the subplot about uniting the Naboo and Gungan peoples.

She wouldn't threaten the Viceroy? He entire plan was to capture him and force him to call off the droid army.

 

They're evil Force users. This is made clear in TPM based on a combination of the dialogue and their actions. They're an order of Force users that the Jedi had thought to be extinct, but clearly aren't and they've obviously got some plans brewing and are wiling to let innocent people get caught in the crossfire -- it worked well for me.

I like the midichlorians, so I wouldn't want to see those cut out, but I don't think the Sith would work for a variety of reasons. For one, Anakin doesn't even have a basic grasp of the force or the Jedi, so it would be difficult to explain the Sith, whom the Jedi have much less information on. Second, Anakin is never present during discussions of the Sith. Third, the Council is not even sure that Qui-Gon's attacker is a Sith in the first. Part of the reason they are going back to Naboo is to see if they can discover his identity, so there's no reason to discuss it with Anakin. I think the duel works just fine the way it is -- Maul's hatred of the Jedi comes through and the Jedi's resolve to face him is there. This isn't a personal battle -- it's more of a professional/philosophical one which is how it should be, in my opinion. The duels naturally increase in intimacy throughout the Saga, so I think the set up in TPM works well.

Here I actually agree with RLM to a degree. I think that Jar Jar's antics and Anakin's dialogue should have been cut out and those sequences reduced in scope. It does break the emotional flow to a degree. Although, I think concluding with Obi-Wan and Maul was a very good move on Lucas' part in that it allowed for some emotional resolution and draw down. Where I get rather irritated with RLM is that he ignores the far greater offender:

ROTJ

No matter TPM's issues, ROTJ's ending is more compromised because the stakes are so much higher and it is just as, if not even more, silly. We cut back and forth between Luke dueling his father for his soul, his father's soul, his sister's, the rebellion, and the fate of the known galaxy. And yet, we cut from this (Han Solo making an "aw shucks" pose while surrounding the Imperial troops with Teddy bears):



to this (with Vader threatening to turn Leia and Luke launching his attack against his father as one of the most haunting pieces of music in the Saga plays):



There's no comparison to me. While Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, and Maul's duel is certainly important, the stakes are not nearly so high as they are in ROTJ and the conflict is not nearly as personal. Thus, I'll readily agree that TPM does have a few issues with its ending. Where I find RLM hypocritical is that he spends so long dissecting this when it was an issue that affected ROTJ far more deeply.

Plenty. The sequence with Padmé really rounded out her character arc. These were her people and her planet that the Trade Federation had invaded and made suffer. She, then, was going to confront them. And, in fact, it makes sense within the context of the film. We see that the Viceroy is the only one to give orders and it's a very top-down organization. Plus, if they noticed that the droid command ship was destroyed, they might very well flee or call for another droid army which would put Padmé in quite a bind. She has to capture them in order to ensure that the leaders are not able to take charge and leave or get reinforcements. TPM points this out quite clearly.

As for Jar Jar, I agree that his role could have been greatly cut down. But I do think the Gungan battle was important -- it showed Gungans being killed by the Trade Federation, which was significant, and also demonstrated the alliance between the humans of Naboo and the Gungans. It also made Padmé's entry into Theed Palace more plausible since they would not have encountered the army. But, yes, I agree that it could have been cut down quite a bit. I don't think, though, that it needs to be eliminated as it does play an important role in the conclusion of the film.

 

You are so right.

As an adult, I've found ROTJ to be an infinitely more disappointing movie than TPM.

 

What do we need to know about the Sith that hasn't been explained already? From TPM alone, anyone can gather that they are mortal enemies of the Jedi, have been gone for a millennium and want revenge. Even if you don't pay much attention, you'll definitely know that the Jedi and the Sith are mortal enemies and that's all we need to understand, IMO. I agree that it would've been interesting to hear a little bit about their history, though.





History - it's interesting
/LM

 

A simple explanation was given and provided in this thread. A more specific explanation was not given, because when Lucas dared to explain the connection between the Force and individuals, all hell broke loose and the RLM crowd went totally crazy.

 

Samuel l jackson. He was a "tough guy" in the prequels. His voice when he fought the emperor was very intense. He fought the Emperor! He played the most important role in the saga? Had he defeated the emperor, the entire OT never would've happened! But it didn't. But he was in the most important moments in the saga!

Having him use profanity, like he does in his other movies, would be redundant and not unnecessary to the film at all. There are other ways he could be a "tough guy". I disagree with RLM on that. It's terrible typecasting.

However, Mace windu should have had more "intense, tough guy", moments in Episode 2. He only had one in episode 3-the duel with the emperor.

 

Mace Windu is anything but an "intense, tough guy" in my eyes. Sure, he's a tough fighter, but he is always a very serious, composed Jedi Master. He loses it a bit in his final scene, but that's a deliberate illustration of how Palpatine has managed to disturb the balance of the Jedi Order. Up till that moment, Mace is portrayed as a serious, somewhat stern by-the-book Jedi.
Now that I think about it, he serves as a manifestation of the Jedi Council's general attitude towards Anakin: In TPM, he/they are very reserved towards him as a Jedi prospect, in AOTC, he/they are more supportive and in ROTS, he/they are suspicious of Anakin's behavior.





Mace - he's got an attitude
/LM

 

Having samuel l jackson curse in star wars would not be right for star wars.

 

Also, who should have played Mace windu, other than samuel l jackson? He was there to get star wars fans who were fans of Jackson's other works, but chose to watch SW because their favorite actor was in it. He increased the star wars fanbase.