Full Series The Clone Wars - Episode 5.1 - Revival - discussion thread

It's not a stupid idea in the slightest. If you want TCW to take place in an alternate universe, then it does. Pure and simple. That was easy, wasn't it?

Make your own interpretation of the Star Wars universe and the things that happen in it. That's what I do. I pick and choose. In the Star Wars Radio Drama they said there's no sound in space, ships just have a little audio device that simulates the sound. I found that annoying for all of about ten minutes. Then I said, screw that, sound in space doesn't need an explanation, it just happens. I don't acknowledge anything that happened in "The Gungan General" from Season 1. To my mind it never happened. LFL has yet to send someone to my house to force me to accept their version of events, so I feel pretty safe in my own interpretation.

if you don't like TCW, that's great. Seriously, I mean that from my heart. You don't have to like it. You don't have to acknowledge anything in it, and if George ever tries to tell you otherwise, you can tell him where to stuff it, because even if he invented it, he has no power to tell you exactly how things in a fictional universe go down. Take what you want and leave the rest. You'll be left with a universe you can be happy with, I think.

 

Unnecessarily relegated. The story was out before Revenge of the Sith. And please read the description we were given as well as the cover:

http://www.darkhorse.com/Comics/10-563/Star-Wars-Obsession-1-of-5

Same thing on the cover: "The action packed lead-in to Revenge of the Sith!

No infinities logo anywhere. No indication to any fan that this isn't some noncanon story. No, it's specifically billed as being a lead-in to Revenge of the Sith. And it fulfilled that goal nicely. The fact that people don't like it and want to hit a redo years later upsets me not because it is just one story, but because it can be anything. Even Piell started it. Next it's Adi. If Oppo Rancisis dies in the series, then a good chunk of Republic comics get wiped out unnecessarily. I don't enjoy changing things just because one can. I don't like LFL's stubborn insistence that everything exists in one universe when clearly one hand doesn't know what the other is doing. And most of all, I don't like that whatever happens in this cartoon dictates the content of other EU work from now on.

But again,all of the above might even be forgivable had Adi's death served a purpose. Had she been given any character development or some role that necessitated her presence, I probably could overlook the trampling. But the upsetting thing is that there is no such reason. Replace her with any random jedi and the effect is the same. There was absolutely nothing special about her whatsoever in this episode so the choice to kill her specifically is just spitting on EU work because they can. As a buyer, it's not making me rush out to buy more comics or novels.

 

Yes, but that's not how they adverstised it when the EU first started. It was the "official, this is what legitimately happens to the characters" continuation of the saga. It's only been with the advent of the prequels that they changed it "oh there are now different levels of canon" crap.

And it doesn't change the fact that these continuity errors are all easily avoidable. TCW staff need to get some originality. Stop stealing from the EU one minute, then trashing it the next. If I was in charge, I wouldn't be thinking "Oh most people haven't read that book, or that comic", I'd be trying to keep the ENTIRE fanbase happy.

 

Ughhh.... This episode reminds me why I hate 50% of the Clone Wars. So many EASILY avoidable continuity problems (and most of the time they don't enrich or enhance the story just because they "played loose with established canon" with the exception of the Mandos; and even that was thankfully workable) And that's the thing I believe bothers most of us "EU fans" is that most of the characters that The Clone Wars uses and butchers that already have stories in the comics and games could have easily be substituted for ORIGINAL characters. You don't bill the books and comics and games as "the official continuation of the Star Wars Saga" and then trample all over them just because of your lack of originality. Curiously, notice that the books, games, comics, etc were given the highest priority when Lucas needed $$$ between ROTJ and TPM but now that he has enough money to actually do his own stuff suddenly we have the "different levels of canon" crap. Really, all someone at Lucasfilm has to is say one line "The Clone Wars is not part of the comics and books EU for you long time fans." Done. Everyones happy, EU fans, CW fans, kids don't know or care till their older, etc. At least DC and Marvel have the Scarlet Witch and Superboy to reset things....

Anyway, on to the episode, overall I thought it was a weak premiere:

1. Adi Gallia dies at the hands Savage Opress. Besides the obvious continuity problem she was a disposable character than I didn't feel anything for when she died. She served no purpose other than to try and make Savage and Maul seem like a threat.

2. Fluctuating power levels. One minute Maul and Opress are owning droids and force choking pirates and killing a council member (oh noes they're SUCh a threat) the next they're both RUNNING AWAY from the SAME band of pirates and getting their legs shot off. Maul could have easily stood his ground. Like the episode where the Nightsisters get slaughtered. I think of the movie line "your technological terror is nothing compared to the power of the dark side"and then go "ummm looks like the force is weak compared to a 15 blasters and a rocket launcher" Jedi and Sith shown taking on scores of enemies and showing impressive force powers one second...owned by weaker people and in less numbers the next.

3. Cheapening of using two lightsabers. It used to be exotic and novel and cool to see. Like the light whip and double bladed lightsaber. Once everyone starts getting them and it pops up everywhere it becomes less cool and special (see Boba Fett).

4. The pirates were pretty quick to change sides. Okay lets join Maul or he'll kill us. Oh wait, never mind lets kill Maul instead....

5. I liked that Savage was shown to be smarter than his brother. He wants them to work as a team while Maul's stuck on the power struggle between Master and apprentice (although the way he cried out when Savage had his arm cut off might mean he's not buying 100% of what he's saying)

6. Mauls plan was to try and take over a PIRATE gang? He didn't foresee that an army of people looking to save their own skin and easily able to be bribed isn't the best army to have working "for you."

7. I'm curious to see how the Maul hooks up with Vizla and the Mandalorians hopefully those episodes are as promising as they look.

 

When you’re saying "Dude. give it up" it feels a bit weird since your quoting today something I wrote about a week ago, I haven’t said anything more about it since then.

I have spent my hard earned money on the books and comics as well. I am thankful for their entertainment value I got from them, but I don’t feel pissed on when they’re not considered canon.
The reason for this is I feel the comics and books gave me what I spent my money on, entertainment, but also because I think it’s creatively the right move for the show to ignore them.
I think TCW should work on its own, it shouldn’t demand that the viewers have read the books or comics because that makes the show IMHO feel incomplete.
Neither do I think it’s particularly good for the writers of the show if they were forced to adhere to the stories and canon created in the comics, because it would in my opinion limit their possibilities when creating original stories.
ROTS is already putting a lot of restrictions that hamper the show (though that is of course unavoidable).

Clearly you don’t share my view. I can certainly respect the idea that one big functioning continuity, where all the parts feel organically part of the whole, gives the material an added value of realness that is now not present. Though I’m fine with it.

 

NOT impressed. I hope it gets better.

Maul turning tail & running was a WTF! Moment for me. C'mon! Maul took out the leadership of Black Sun & their bodyguards that were supposed to b elite killers....by HIMSELF. But runs from these bozos? Now it looks like Maul is going to become another bungling villain.

I'm hoping that's what Palpatine was thinking in that final scene.

 

A so so episode. I had completely forgotten that Adi was killed in Obession. And I'm also cheezed off by G. Lucas' insistence on invalidating my books and comics. However, hadn't Obession already been invalidated by events in S02, when Dooku disowned Ventress?

 

That is the most inspirational thing I've ever read.

 

See, you're completely right about this. The show absolutely shouldn't require that people be knowledgeable about stories from the novels, games, and comics. But why does it also have to go out of its way to contradict and invalidate them? Imagine for a moment if it had been Eeth Koth who was killed on Florrum instead of Adi Gallia. What would have been lost? A prominent Jedi still would have died, the Sith brothers would've earned their villain credibility, and Obi-Wan still would've been left to grieve. Remember, Eeth Koth also has a suspiciously similar substitute in Agen Kolar that still needs to be introduced prior to Revenge of the Sith. So why Adi? I'm not even a TCW-hater and I still can't see any logical reason other than a total disregard.

I've said it before, and I'll probably end up saying it again: Mass Effect 3 used a character that had been, to that point, exclusive to the novels. All of the players who'd never read the novels weren't suddenly having a freak out because they'd never seen her before. As far as they knew, Kahlee Sanders was just another character. But if you knew her and were a book-reading fan, then her appearance was especially gratifying. TCW could take that approach and everyone would be happy. But there's either a lack of carrying, or a mindset of "I don't like it, so I'm changing it." And it's both lazy and disrespectful.

 

I didn't mind the episode, but I have the same reservations here I had about Citadel Rescue. Even Piell didn't need to die on Lola Sayu for the Citadel to be considered a genuine threat; he could have been severely injured and for that reason he would have told Ahsoka the coordinates to the Nexus Route. Less smooth, of course, but it would have been better. Here Eeth Koth would have served the exact same purpose...

 

That sums it up nicely. It's not the fact they chose Adi. It's the fact they didn't need to and DID IT ANYWAY and the message that sends. It's akin to marking one's territory. Eeth Koth would have checked all the boxes nicely and no one here would be flipping out about continuity being trampled.

 

I realise I'm late to the party, but here are some of my thoughts on the episode:

1) It is *very* unfortunate to see that the creators are still unable to make the best use of their brief running time.
The whole first act up until the Sith arrived at Florum to take over the ship was COMPLETELY unnecessary. It contributed nothing to the story or the characters, the action was weak, because was absolutely nothing at stake, as neither Maul nor Savage had any struggle taking out those with the droids. There was only one key information - Darth Maul's new master-over-equals mindset being stated.
Apart from that, the only reason we had to see those pre-Florum scenes was to show a) they now got the same freighter type as before, only now with money to lure the pirates into their scheme, and b) to have a side story of the Jedi investigating and finally picking up on their trail.

Now WHY couldn't this episode begin with a newsreel depicting our Jedi heroes talking to Blue Snaggletooth, showing them the Lightsaber marks everywhere with the Narrator telling us that the Jedi are now aware that "two dangerous Lightsaber-whielding suspects" had gone on a rampage here and stolen all the money and took off in a cruiser?
No direct hints at the Sith brethren. No silly "oh, red sabres = Sith" explanation. Instead a little mystery for the Jedi to chew on. Why would Force Users steal money and a ship?

Now lets move on to what would have then giving up a much more interesting opening scene: Pirate ships orbiting the planet Florum spot a mysterious freighter slowly drifting towards them, no hailing frequencies, no signs of a crew. The pirates check out the freighter, Alien-style: Flashlights only, rattling chains, cargo barrels toppling over, shadowy silhouettes darting across the walls and finally Sith eyes! The two Sith brethren are revealed as they spring their trap. The scene continues as in the episode, an agreement is found, the Sith purchase an alliance with the Pirates.

A simple, clear-cut opening with lots of atmosphere to properly re-introduce us to Darth Maul and Savage Opress.

2) Obi Wan and Adi Gallia's story felt empty. The above suggested different opening would have given us more time to tell the Jedi side of the story without rushing through it. Adi Gallia should have been the driving force of those scenes, to give her her last 15 Minutes of fame.
As it stands it was painfully obvious she was only there as a plot tool, not an actual character. She contributed nothing else, other than to be eliminated so the Sith score a Jedi Council death. That is not a reason worthy of killing off a Jedi Council member who's been introduced to us 13 years ago.

3) Admittedly, her death scene was well done. Savage's horn-impaling move, followed by his finishing Lightsaber move made it very memorable and unique. Unfortunately, the dramatic impact of it was uncaringly disposed off two shots after.

4) Suddenly we have Obi Wan holding his ground against three Lightsaber blades simultaneously, after having just witnessed the death of a friend. He may have been on a rage-induced energy boost, but it felt completely unrealistic when compared with his previous Sith brethren encounter. He may hold up against a non-Force sensitive opponent like Grievous wielding four blades at once, but managing to hold off three Lightsaber blades by two extremely skilled sword fighters at point-blank range? Sorry, that one stretched even GFFA ramifications of believability for me, simply because it contradicts what we had seen in earlier episodes.

5) But now on to the positive: I LOVED everything that followed that duel. Okay, I already LOVED every moment of Hondo Ohnaka that preceded , since he's my favourite TCW-based character. He is the only character on the show who is always giving the great memorable lines and delivers them flawlessly. I mean, "I am semi-speechless."
I was genuinely worried about his fate, even though I knew he'd have to make it to sell Ahsoka those rocket launchers in a later episode.

6) Loved that final duel between the Sith and Obi Wan. That knee-kicking move followed by Savage getting his arm chopped off was very powerful to witness. Savage should keep on losing limbs during his duels. I want him to be a scarred-up, almost Frankenstein's Monster-ish patchwork of a warrior. That would at least give him some character visually, to make up for the lack of personality he's been given so far.

7) Loved that the Sith brethren just narrowly made it off Florum, beaten but not completely broken. Great stuff!

8) Loved that scene in Palpatine's office. The dialogue, that downward POV on Yoda, like Mace had in AOTC, the tension. But most importantly, the fact we got to hear the late Ian Abercrombie again. I didn't know he had recorded so much into the show. However, it seemed like they had to fill two lines in with another voice action. The first one, which was heard when the camera was on the Jedi took me so much out of the moment, because I thought another character was talking. Maybe they would have been better off to leave that line out altogether. Palpatine's evil smirk was also a tad too much. But neither of those blemished could take away from that well-excecuted scene.

So to sum it up from my view, the second half of the episode was very memorable andHondo Ohnaka was this episode's absolute highlight. Even though the first third of the episode felt wasted and Adi Gallia's final appearance was badly handled, this is still my favourite season opening episode yet.

 

This is true, except, I don't feel it applies in this particular case. The critical point is that Adi Gallia's death violates Obsession and only Obsession. That particular series has already been lost. From that perspective, which is where I imagine the writers were operating, there is no continuity damage here because the damage was already done back when a certain set of choices were made regarding Ventress. So violating the continuity as referenced to this one, very specific source that has already been relegated to a strange pseudo-infinities position, is different from violating the continuity of any other EU source.

That being said, the general point is true. TCW should try to avoid deliberately tramping on canon save when the choice is a measured decision to expand storytelling opportunities. Most of the major assaults on continuity, Ventress, the Mandolorians, Darth Maul's 'survival', Ashoka's existence, have all been developed in the service of greater, fuller storytelling within the universe in general and TCW specifically. This creates continuity difficulties, yes, but the key question is whether benefits outweigh the costs. Personally I feel that for Ventress, a brilliantly realized character within the series and really the only character truly available for a 'redemption' plotline, the answer is an obvious yes, even though I loved Obsession. Ashoka is also clearly a net benefit, because it means that there is the possibility of development and new interactions when she is on-screen with Anakin, Obi-Wan, and even Padme, characters who have nothing new to show us between each other anymore - Ashoka makes the whole blasted series possible. The Mandolorians, I think the costs of screwing with the culture and all the convoluted history past and future that entailed all for the purpose of showing a bunch of guys in Mandolorian armor, was not worth it. As for Darth Maul, the jury is still out, bringing him back flies off the cheesiness scale, but if the plot that derives from it if worthwhile, then it could be a net gain.

I wouldn't say there's a lack of caring. TCW has made clear references to certain EU sources, often in great detail, as it did with the navigational data in this episode. Of course they make mistakes and/or choose interpretations that violate common assumptions made by the majority of fans. The total EU canon is huge, and I suspect in the pressure to produce, on-time and on-budget a fully CGI TV show (were the amount of space for in process editing is really rather limited) extensive continuity research is pretty low on the priority list. Continuity and technical errors have been around since the beginning of the EU, and still happen all the time. TCW is vast, and because it is fully animated, predisposed to the casual inclusion of elements that no-one is liable to realize might be problematic in the background. By its very nature a series like TCW was going to be set in a period that was already highly detailed as a means of producing interest and meaning. Some level of conflict was inevitable and I really feel that people are often being too nitpicky about this.

As to the second point, yes, that is certainly happening to some degree, and it is unfortunate. It is a problem, but it is one that rests on George Lucas, not Dave Filoni or the general creative team. Lucas chose to elevate this work above other EU works, and he gave everyone a carte blanche to do it their way. He also set the precedent that decades worth of previous continuity could easily be invalidated by the production of the Prequels. Any author is going to be tempted to have it their way, even in a shared universe. People who read the Hand of Thrawn duology having followed the Bantam Era with any degree of rigor found those books littered with subtext that was the literary equivalent of taking most of the other authors aside and beating them repeatedly with a two by four - if Zahn was handed the kind of power Filoni was granted the damage would be far, far worse.

At the end of the day, each and every work must compromise with the pre-existing EU continuity. TCW certainly has its problems, yes, and there are surely things it could be handling better or with greater care, and we should certainly continue to mention and point these things out, but this is not some sort of wholly unprecedented or unexpected tragedy here, and I think many of the fans ought to reconsider some of their hyperbole and take a step back.

If you watch the The Clone Wars governed by your internal continuity cop, you are doomed to hate it. I can speak from experience here, it took me years to turn my internal biologist cop off long enough to get anything out of the New Jedi Order. Ultimately, doing so was worth it, because as much as I still note the flaws of that series, I was able to find a place where I could still love Star Wars even with that in it.

 

Zahn does his own thing, but in a way that doesn't directly screw with other people's work, unlike TCW.

 

But that's basically throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It's saying "because this was wrong and we've invalidated it, we can just do this as well." Rather than try to salvage the material, they'd rather trample it completely. It shows absolutely no respect to the material or to the fans who invested themselves in these stories. This would be like Katie Lucas and co. making a series years from now that tramples all over Ahsoka and Cad Bane's accomplishments and because it is the newer material, anything in the cartoon is just no longer canon. I'm not a fan of just waving a wand and going around saying "This is canon. This isn't. Is. Isn't" etc.

 

I can't wait until we get to Onderon, so we can stop talking about canon. This thread isn't even worth visiting anymore.

Edit: So Maul and Savage were collecting valuable items, including "a trove of pure sansanna spice." I wonder if those two, while waiting for a jumpstart, were just gettin' messed up on spice. Doubtful. Savage is probably a drinker. Now Maul, he reminds me of Tony Montana, probably samples too much product.

 

Agreed, but people will complain about next week's episode too

 

Probably my favorite Season opener. Obi-Wan fighting back hard with two lightsabers was awesome, and Hando was hilarious as always. Can't wait to see how S5 pans out from here.

 

Don't know why people expect Obsession to be taken into account after Seasons 3 and 4..

 

Sorry, but before the prequels came out, there was no talk of "subordinate to the higher canon" etc etc. The EU was advertised as part of the actual canon.

 

Again Filoni intrudes on canon with yet another subordinate death.

 

I love how Filoni is a scapegoat for everything people don't like about the series. It's not like he makes every creative decision in the series.

 

Most of the points you've made were necessary things to show. If they didn't show how the Bros. got the credits then people would complain "Hey where did they get the credits!? This is important background info the show needs to explore more! FAIL"

I really enjoyed Maul overpowering Savage and putting him in his place.