Lit A question on Karen Traviss and her work(s)

Lied about Luke's father Obi-Wan did.
Forgot to tell him about who his father really was both Yoda and Obi-Wan did.
Also forgot to tell him about his sister both both Yoda & Obi-Wan did. At least Obi-Wan came clean on this eventually.
Also forgot to tell him how his mother was killed Obi-Wan did.

Yoda & Obi-Wan were interested in the greater good, yes. So in terms of the ends justify the means they succeeded, but that will not change how I view them and their methods. Now some would argue that the deceptions of Yoda & Obi-Wan served to protect Luke, but I don't see it that way. The deception served to protect their agenda of removing Palpatine. Luke's own emotional well being was a secondary concern, if a concern at all.

 

George Lucas forgot to fill him in.

 

Even if that's true (I myself believe they were trying very hard to balance the two), I must ask, just what the heck is wrong with it? Their agenda of removing Palpatine was not a matter of personal dislike or political maneuvering, it was a matter of saving the galaxy from the rule of a murderous Sith Lord. Compared to that, Luke's emotional well being is a very minor concern. All four of the points you mentioned are huge wild cards that would have unpredictable results (especially that last one; are you trying to send Luke to the dark side?) and Yoda and Obi-Wan quite rightly decided not to risk it, both for Luke's sake and for the greater good.

 

Pretty sure if he knew about his mother he wouldn't have been all that eager to claim theirs good in Vader.

And him learning about his heritage right away could have lead to some kind of hesitation to oppose Vader to a degree. Or make him want to confront him more and allowing him to fall right in his arms

 

I haven't read that first Jude Watson story where he "commits murder" but in Jedi vs Sith (the background book, not the comic)- Jedi Knight Siri says she'd have done exactly the same thing as Anakin in that situation. Maybe that's why the Council didn't penalize him for it?

 

Here's an interesting perspective on Jedi philosophy, from the author of a book called "The Jedi & The Lotus":

John B. Morgan: Most previous studies have looked for Buddhist or Christian influences in Star Wars, and yours is the first to examine it from a Vedic perspective. In the book you make the case that Star Wars owes more to the Vedic tradition than to any of the others. Can you give a few examples that demonstrate this?
Steven Rosen: First of all, I wouldn’t use the word “Vedic” – Star Wars does not draw on the Vedic samhitas or its appended texts. No. Rather, I would say that there is much in India’s epics and Puranic literature that made its way into Lucas’s films. Well, you need look no further than the Ramayana – the first Star Wars film is almost an exact replica of this story, down to the half-human/half animal Chewbacca, who is very clearly a Hanuman-type figure. I explain all of this in my book. The parallels are uncanny. And many.
Yoda’s teachings are right out of the Bhagavad-gita. Anyone who knows the Bhagavad-gita can see it. No doubt, there are Buddhist and Christian resonances in the Star Wars universe as well. I think Lucas drew on everything he knew. But, clearly, by his own admission, his main influence was Joseph Campbell, and it is no secret that Campbell was partial to Indian stories, myths, and its ancient culture as well. His inclination toward the land of the Ganges, its mysticism and exotica, is laid out in his posthumous book, Baksheesh and Brahman: Asian Journals – India. I quote from that book quite a bit. In the end, Lucas used much that he gleaned from Campbell, who was influenced by India’s sacred literature.
John B. Morgan: Before reading The Jedi in the Lotus, I would have said that the philosophy of the Jedi Knights in the Star Wars films is more similar to the Advaita, or impersonalist, monistic school of philosophy than it is to Vaishnavism, but you claim in the book that this is a misreading which is a result of the prejudices that we Westerners have about “Eastern” philosophies. Can you elaborate?
Steven Rosen: Yes, most people think that the East teaches only impersonalism, or that God is some abstract void, Brahman, the oneness of the universe. This is only one part of what is taught in the East. There is a strong monotheistic thread in Indian thought, too — worship of a personal Divinity. You have both forms of theism in India, as you do in the West. It seems clear to me that Lucas, being influenced by the Ramayana and the Mahabharata, brought a personal theism into his conception of the Force. Oh, don’t get me wrong: there is plenty of impersonalism there too. It’s all mixed up, as it is in most religious traditions. In fact, when the Vedic tradition – or even later Hindu tradition – is not studied under a bona fide spiritual master, impersonal conceptions of the Supreme rise to the fore. It’s only the legitimate Vaishnava lineages that teach otherwise. One must study these texts under a teacher. That’s the point. Only then will one “get” what the scriptures are really trying to say. Ultimately, the teaching of these texts are achintya-bheda abheda tattva, which means simultaneous oneness and difference between God and the living entity. A portion of this understanding tells us that God is both personal and impersonal. Of course, Lucas is not a theologian – really, Joseph Campbell isn’t either! – so, naturally, the end product will be a little confused. But one can see a personal divinity in the Force for sure. I am quite pleased with the way my chapter on that subject came out.

http://www.16rounds.com/2011/06/jedi-lotu/

 

On this count, you seem to be reading a lot more into the dialogue than I ever did; to me, they were discussing a degree of fear, anger, usw. perfectly appropriate to a nine-year old child and how even that was potentially dangerous in one strong in the Force.

Bearing in mind the caveat that I've not read the latter few installments, Watson's portrayal of fourteen-to-seventeen-year-old-Anakin struck me as both reasonably in keeping with the films and, by the admittedly low standards of fourteen-to-seventeen-year-olds, a generally pleasant, friendly, generous, courageous, intelligent, imaginative and fundamentally good individual, virtues tempered by his, well, temper, impulsiveness, thoughtlessness and capacity for carrying grudges. Really, measured against the average grade nine student, he comes out well ahead of the pack.

Now, all that said, I would point out the obvious, viz. that Anakin's character in Jedi Quest is, definititionally, in-character, or should at least be treated as such given the subject under discussion.

p336
' "And when you can, send a message to the Temple."[Obi-Wan] provided the transponder frequencies. "Someone should meet us at the outpost. Mace Windu, or Thracia Cho Leem. Or both. It is very important that my Padawan be counseled by another Master after his ordeal." '

pp338-9
' Obi-Wan and Thracia Cho Leem entered the hangar. Thracia removed her weather gear. Anakin looked up, then returned his gaze to the ship.
Thracia approached the boy.
"Not so young now, Anakin Skywalker?" she asked, sitting on the bench beside him. Anakin slid over a few centimeters to make room for the diminutive Jedi Knight.
Anakin did not answer.
"Young Jedi, you have learned some hard truths. Power and even discipline are not sufficient. Self-knowledge is the most difficult of our many journeys."
"I know," Anakin said softly.
"And sometimes wisdom seems impossibly far away."
Anakin nodded.
"You must let me feel what is within you now," Thracia said gently. Then, with the faintest tone of warning, "You are still being judged."
Anakin screwed up his face, then relaxed and let her probe.
Obi-Wan slowly turned his eyes to the dead ship, now good only for cold and heartless research, and left the hangar. This was not for him to witness. There had to be an objective evaluation; that was half the essence of Jedi counseling.
As for the other half...
That was Thracia's greatest skill - healing.
There would be many more battles for his apprentice, many more disappointments. And many more joys. More joys than sadnesses, Obi-Wan fervently hoped.
This was how it was, how it felt, to have the heart of a Master. '

Episode III came at the conclusion of both three years of near-constant warfare (and growing ever more constant all the time) and three years of Palpatine manipulating Anakin both personally and from afar with the express purpose of turning him against the Jedi. I don't know that it's really fair to judge Anakin's innate emotional strength from that particular vantage point.

 

I would agree with a lot of your positions if I had not worked in the publishing world. Sit in on an undergraduate seminar in creative writing, spend hours in front of the slushpile, or edit the terrible local below a thousand population town page at a newspaper. Then see if the preconceptions continues or not. Gag, KT and I have now shared similar jobs. My objectivity must have died.

RE LOTF and pet characters: So the authors used a different organizational plan than most writers? How is this inherently terrible? The plot threads connect all together during Invincible's dénouement, and Alema the Fall Woman meets her demise in a non-Denning novel thanks to Emperor Cardboard using the super Mando gloves Boba FedExes off to Han in Sacrifice.

Yes, Wedge is going to appear in Bloodlines when the focus is on Jacen and his goon squad rounding up seditious elements on Coruscant. Perhaps Boba, Han, and Wedge needed a caf break so Han can come off the high of seeing his not-evil twin die while wondering if Jacen use of Force Sodomy Boba's daughter's brain will cause a blow back to House Solo.

Re Jaina in Revelation: Jaina is coming out of this portion of her life.


Jaina lost her war, lost her drive, lost her mind walls thank to Myrkr, and lost her dignity while have Killik/Zekk threesomes. When Caedus goes, "ZOMG Jaina, you cut my arm off using a broadsword?!" that was done on purpose. Jaina's adrift in life, her family has gone to potts, and she is probably not in the best mood. So she comes off in awe when seeing the Mandalorians in their element on their world? What a surprise! Mind you, of course, Jaina showed some of her negative vibes after Emperor Cardboard kills an evil Jedi in an Allston novel, and Jaina still feels happy go Mando'a in a Denning novel when Leia rebukes Boba for being a bag of tools.

Alas, again, most of these supposed issues are nullified when the stories are put into context. KT dislikes the Jedi? Fair to her. Denning, the evil architect trying to destroy all of the NJO while drinking a milk shake constructed from the warm blood of dead Solo babies, is also debunked when Denning admits he personally sees the sides of the Force as internal alongside his backup plan to bring Anakin Solo back from the dead at the end of LOTF. Why don't we the pass the fifth around? The evil spectre of EU writers we dislike will not rip our souls to Hell.

 

The main issue with what I hear is that is KT completely ignored the fact Jaina had experience in a fight and characterized her a from a spoiled princess just to puff up the Mandalorians in LOTF.

 

That's an exaggeration born of people who had their own expectations that weren't met. Jaina wasn't characterized as weak, nor spoiled.

She was deferential to the Mandalorians because she had come to their world asking for help. One doesn't traditionally come seeking favors while riding a high horse. You come humbly with hat in hand, and that's what she did. She specifically notes during one of the early scenes on Mandalore that while she may not always agree with everything that's being said, she's a Jedi and should make all efforts to be diplomatic in this situation.

The often pointed out scene where Jaina "spars" with Boba Fett is hardly a detriment to her character. She's been told that she's been accepted, that the Mandalorians are now allies who will help and train her. She's been led to a sparring match with an opponent who says "Hold on, let's talk for a moment", and she takes that at face value. I don't see it as weakness when she applied the same standard to this situation as any other sparring session she may have had in the past. It's by no fault of hers that Boba randomly punches her while they're talking. That's not normal, that's not acceptable behavior. But while he does land a punch, Jaina immediately draws her lightsaber and counterattacks with reflex speed, slashing him across the chest in a move that would have been lethal to anyone not wearing beskar plates. Moreover, the situation is explicitly treated as "What the hell?! People don't do that when they're supposed to be sparring!" However, there is a lesson in it: your ally is only your ally until they stop. Theoretically speaking, imagine if that had been Jacen instead of Boba. "It's okay, I'm your brother. I've learned my lesson, take me home." Jaina wants to believe that can happen. We could very well have had a repeat of Meetra Surik ala Revan.

Also, Jaina's fights with Goran Beviin. There are several things to consider here. Just to get it out of the way, Beviin is not supposed to be Random Mando #36. He's one of the Supercommandos, the best the Mandos have to offer, who fought through the Vong war and is generally a badass. He's effectively "Jango-class". Let's give the man some competency credit up front. Secondly, Jaina's been thrown into a fight that she doesn't...understand yet, let's say. She's got cumbersome armor she's not used to, a heavy metal sword instead of the weightless lightsaber she's used to, and it's only got enough of a hilt for a one-handed grip. She's also started to like Beviin, so it's not as if she's going to power in and go all out against this guy. They fight and Beviin wins. Because Jaina's still trying to adjust to the new sword and the technique it takes to use that is very different than the finesse of a lightsaber. They fight again, he wins. Same issue. They fight again and Beviin shows her the power of single-minded rage, and that's the first time she actually uses the Force in their fights, easily knocking him away. Beviin also admits that she's going to end up beating him, sooner rather than later, because she'll work out the fighting style, she's younger than him, and hasn't even been using the Force. The lesson here is also to stop fighting with "appropriate force". Because he's a regular person, she doesn't use the Force to fight him until it's necessary. Because he's a nice guy, she doesn't hammer him. He tries to teach her that this is stuff Sith love. They count on stuff like that, and they'll use it to kill you. Don't let them.

But nevertheless, Jaina's never depicted as incompetent or weak. Her moral character's never questioned: she goes out of her way both to be nice to Boba, and to help the total stranger Sintas, simply because she's a good person. Her skills as a mechanic and pilot are never questioned And during the raid on the Star Destroyer, where she's got her lightsaber and is outside the restrictions of a practice ring and back in the real world, she handles her business with the skill that would be expected.

 

The problem I have is that Jaina never really, even in her internal monologue, expresses that she disagrees or disapproves or even...vaguely wonders about it. At the start she talks about how she'll "eat humble pie" and "beg if need be" because she needs their help, and I'm completely fine with that. But apparently, from that point on, she actually decided to method act.

And I pretty much feel that her moral character is questioned. Certainly she never defends herself against accusations of favouritism or bias or even responds to the hypocrisy inherent in the perspectives presented to her, even within her own mind. Like, are the Mandalorians saying that the Jedi are screwed up because they're so detached they don't form real families, or are they saying that the Jedi are elite snobs who play favourites within their families? Because as far as I can tell, they're saying both, at the same time, especially in any conversation where Bardan Jusik/Gotab is involved. It gets to a point where it's just confusing. Jaina's directly accused of these things, and doesn't defend herself even internally.

Or where Jaina's clearly willing to try and impress these dudes by pointing out she's a fighter pilot (only to be dismissed because "they're all fighter pilots here"), but when Beviin is bragging about crushing Vong, Jaina doesn't think to mention she once killed the Warmaster while her legs were immobilised? Okay, maybe she doesn't want to brag, that makes sense, but it seems odd she wouldn't at least think about her experience in passing, even if not with pride, considering it's a lead in to a scene where she ends up having trouble in a duel due to (a) being unable to properly predict her opponent's behaviour and (b) having to deal with unfamiliar armor, which were like...the two main features of war against the Vong, and Jaina kind of...ruled at that.

So I'm not saying that there's no way Beviin would be able to beat her due to a set of specific circumstances, just that it seems weird to deliberately remind the reader about the Vong, right before a fight where, due to how the fight is described, her experience against them would seem to be directly relevant (or she'd THINK it was and then it could be explained why it was different), only to have it...not mentioned at all even in passing?

Or the fact that Boba Fett first of all thinks that Jaina's there to negotiate for her brother, and is willing to deal with her even if he doesn't like it, because anything to help out his people and they're mercenaries, and you know, that's totally fine because he's doing what's best for his people. But then we're supposed to simultaneously cheer that the Mandos are experiencing this cultural resurgence due to, well, profiting from the war, while at the same time viewing them as innocent victims of the war who are in a moral position to remind Jaina that her brother's victims had names you know, NAMES I TELL YOU!

It just reached a point where I felt like I was having to come up with my own justifications for why Jaina, again, not out loud, but even in her own internal dialogue, wasn't challenging things that were, at that very moment, existing in hypocritical contradictions, and I was having to do it so often, the novel was just frustrating to read. I didn't even need Jaina's perspective to be presented as right, I just needed for there to be an actual, well, dialogue between the perspectives.

You obviously responded differently and if the novel didn't leave you questioning Jaina's behaviour then the novel did it's job for you, which is cool. But I don't think that being confused by the way the whole thing was handled is really all that weird a response to have either. I think there are some pretty strong arguments that the text was more concerned with telling the reader about Mandalorian culture than telling the reader about Jaina Solo, and that it focused on the former to the detriment of the latter. She felt more like a blank slate observer there to learn about Mandalorian culture as a reader proxy than a pre-existing character with her own, at times conflicting, views.

 

JMT -- aren't they mostly used in emergencies? For example, Obi-Wan knew that Artoo held the Death Star plans -- if he hadn't used a mind trick, he wouldn't have been able to get the plans to the Rebels, and the Death Star wouldn't have been destroyed. Qui-Gon needed to get his ship repaired to get the Queen back to Coruscant -- they had been kidnapped, and it wasn't like he wasn't going to pay Watto.

Now, if you're going around using it to shoplift, and get your teacher to believe that your dog really DID eat your homework, then you've got a problem. (Although I wonder if it would be unethical to use it to get my cat to behave. "You aren't hungry. I just fed you an hour ago." "You don't want to wake me up at four a.m. You will go back to sleep.")

I thought one of the points of the PT was that the whole "no attachments" thing is part of what brought down the Order. The Jedi Order was so set in its ways, so stuck in the whole, "no this, no that, must do this, blah blah blah", that they forgot to see the rest of the universe. Because attachments are part of being well, not just human, but well, people. Probably not all species, but I'm guessing most of them. It's not natural. And because they forbade attachments, they were unable to maintain connections to the everything else, and became too isolated.

 

You'd think the same precognition that lets her dodge or deflect blaster bolts would allow her to avoid an old man's punch.

Effects on Jaina's character aside, this was one of the silliest parts in the whole series. Jania came of age fighting the Yuuzahn Vong, a race of berserker melee fighters who she couldn't sense in the Force. She killed their freaking Warmaster in single combat. But somehow, a pudgy middle-aged Mando paralyzes her in a swordfight because he got angry?

 

Honestly? Yeah. But the prevalence of Force powers working or not based upon the demands of the plot is nothing new, and I can accept that for the same reasons I can except Palpatine letting Vader throw him down a reactor without a fight. It's not the greatest, but there's at least a line of reasoning with the scene―that she has absolutely no reason to think the person defined as an ally at that point would strike her prior to a sparring match he just asked her to hold up on so they could talk―that gives it some manner of credibility.

For one, Beviin's not pudgy. Just saying. Secondly, the reason Jaina temporarily doesn't fight back is an emotionally based choice. During that fight, Beviin's attempting to show her that rage strategy, not to beat her or harm her, but to teach her. And she responds accordingly. Until he doesn't stop, and keeps on swinging, and swinging, and―what the hell, dude?―still swinging. Until it stops becoming a teaching moment and she's done humoring the technique, putting an end to it with a swift Force push. Considering her ability to end the incident at any moment though the use of the Force, you can see that she allowed it to continue as long as it did with the belief that he was going to stop once the "lesson" had been conveyed. Once Jaina realized that the switch had been flipped and wasn't going back unless she forced it, she...well, Forced it.

 

I was thinking more of Qui-Gon on Jar Jar ("I think you overdid it, Master") in TPM and Obi-Wan on the Death-stick supplier in AotC ("You don't want to sell me Death-sticks, you want to go home and rethink your life"). Neither of those was a red-hot emergency, IMO.

'I Jedi' has an illuminating passage from Luke's Jedi Holocron on the subject - after Corran had accidentally mind-influenced the entire group; including Luke!

That too, and quite possibly the main cause

 

He basically was trying to rob Watto since Republic credits are worthless on Tatooine apparently. He also used it to steal Boss Nass's bongo, which he then destroyed. Maybe the Jedi sent the Gungans a check later.

 

1.Watto is a lying, cheating, slave owner. When Qui Gon first meets Anakin, Watto takes a swap at the kid. He probably came by most of his parts dishonestly by swindling people. QGJ has important work to do, he's not going to waste time trying to deal with a local crook, unless he's forced to, which is what happens in the story. Life, Karma, the Force, what have you, teaches QGJ that there are no short-cuts around certain obstacles. And you forgot the power-supply QGJ swipes to power the pod-racer made from pieces Ani stole from Watto's junk yard. Yoish, these SW characters are downright wicked!!

2. Again, Boss Nass is an ignorant, simple-minded person who is unnecessarily obstructing the Jedi. They come in peace, warn him about the invasion, and ask for his cooperation. Again, lives are at stake. Time is of the essence. Would it be better to stand around arguing with Boss Nass over borrowing a transport to complete an important mission? QGJ has it in his power to get things moving, and he does, that's what makes him a hero, as opposed to a paper pushing, hand shaking, ineffectual bureaucrat. "Hey, wait right there, Jedi!! You forgot to fill out these important Republic Tax Forms! And no lighstaber fights until you've accounted for probable property damage: here are the insurance forms, fill them out in triplet!!" Yeah, a very exciting adventure story that would make...

Obi-Wan totally lies to those poor Stormtroopers in ANH! Those are the Droids they're looking for! And Princess Leia lies to Darth Vader, too!! These poor people are just trying to do their jobs and these lying "heroes" keep taking advantage of them! Especially those bad Jedi, with their mind-tricks (spoon-benders!!) and thieving ways. SW is packed with amoral messages, corrupting our young!

 

He ended up mortally wounding Vader before he died

 

Watto IS a slave owner, but I never got the feeling that he was a liar or a cheat. I got the feeling that he actually cared for Shmi and Anakin, in his own weird way. He is simply a business 'man', and business men don't just give products away, no matter how righteous your cause may be.

Boss Nass is the LEADER of a people who don't wish to get involved in a conflict he thinks that the Gungans can avoid. He believes that the Trade Federation does NOT know about the Gungans, so why antagonize them? Both of these beings are acting in their own best interests, but there is nothing inherently wrong with that, no matter how much it may impede the Jedi.

What I got out of both of those scenes is that life is NOT clear cut. Qui-Gon had to be 'creative' to get what he needed. I'm not even going to respond to the last paragraph.

 

In Tatooine Ghost we see that Watto does actually care about Shmi. At least based on her diary entries.

 

Qui-Gon should have just arrested Watto, taken the part, and freed Anakin and his mom by force then. Instead he tries to barter with a criminal, fixes a legitimate bet (because cheating is okay but freeing slaves by force is wrong), wastes everyone's time with the risky and pointless podrace idea, and abandons Anakin's mother to live out her life in slavery. Some hero!

Maybe Obi-Wan should have just tried to mind trick Han into taking them to Alderaan for free. Time was of the essence and lives were at stake, and according to Jedi philosophy it's okay to use your powers to take advantage of people as long as the end justifies the means. That's why Jedi are the official moral arbiters of the galaxy with the legal authority to decide who deserves to get screwed over for being a meaniehead.

 

In Tatooine Ghost, we find that somebody arranged for Shmi to get a valuable item that she could use to buy her way out of slavery (a rare spaceship part). In The Life & Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi- this is confirmed to be Qui-Gon.

 

This mainly seems like inconsistent writing

 

Tatooine wasn't in the Republic ("The Republic doesn't exist out here") so QGJ had no authority to arrest Watto. And as he says, "We didn't come here to free slaves". He's also trying not to draw attention because he's transporting a high-status person (Padme) through a world actually controlled by a mafia. If discovered, Padme would become an easy target for kidnapping/ransom.

In ANH: like QGJ, Obi first offered money, some up front and some upon arrival at their destination. By then Imperial currency had taken over, apparently Obi's money was good anywhere. If it had come to it, he probably would have used his influence to get on board a starship. And there wouldn't be anything wrong with that. Or would you prefer the story to play out this way? "Sorry Luke, we can't go save someone's life & stop the Death Star from destroying more & more planets, we're out of cash! Go home, restart the farm, make some sound investments, and hopefully, in a few years, we'll have enough cash combined to maybe look into the matter, as long as we don't have to take any risks, make any difficult moral decisions, or push past any ignorant, greedy, or outright wicked people we meet."

I think some people are missing the point of the Jedi. Yes, they're heroic and they are vessels for some very deep wisdom, but completely "good" heroes are not terribly instructive and are also boring. The point of the story is that despite their "exceptional skills", lofty ideals, and best intentions, the Jedi are flawed people, just like you and me, and they made mistakes. Just as in real life (Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Mahatma Ghandi etc.) their mistakes don't invalidate their self sacrificing heroism.

 

Uhhhh... I think I lost track of who was being facetious or not.