PT TPM 3D Has Finally Stopped The "Everyone Hates This Movie" Charade!

I have heard it before. The way these things seem to work is someone comes up with an easy, catchy, funny or creative way to bash the PT, it catches on and then you see it either spread or try to spread throughout the internet. Some fail some dont. The machine will always keep trying though.

 

Personally, I've never heard any major criticism against Panaka. But I don't know, it just seemed an exaggerated reaction to Lightsabre's comment. I think the only criticism I can give is the underdevelopment of his character. Then again, he was supposed to appear in Episodes II and III. It was Hugh Quarshie loss.

 

I have seen it on other sites this year its a brand new thing. I find it hilarious because when I catch people doing this I can point out how completely/undeniably new it is and some will actually go as far as to say "well...maybe no one noticed it before because the films are so bad that people can find new things wrong with them all the time" lol. It blatantly shows the exact mindset these "fans" have. How all they really like is the brand name and not the films themselves at all. For these individuals, the films only exist to pick apart and make fun of.

It all gos back to what the community's at sites like prequel appreciation society have been consistently saying for years now. The opposition to the SW Saga is mostly a small, loud demographic of stubborn fanatics most of whom are either into their 40's by now and people who look up to what they say as absolute gospel. This particular demographic only really wants collective ownership over the brand name of SW, not star wars itself (as in the films by george lucas) they dont like the films. A big reason why being that they refuse to allow themselves to see the 6 film story the way lucas tells everybody they should be seen. Because thats the way he made them. These bashers fundamentally want to see Star Wars move along a literary platform rather than the visual platform stile that lucas has always moved it on since he created it. Lucas himself has said this publicly but (again) some simply shield the facts and reality with the whole "anything lucas ever says must be a lie and not allowed into the conversation" thing.

The fact that you see people saying things like "this or that minor character should have been more fleshed out/developed" shows how deep the misunderstanding of SW gos. They want SW to be more like LOTR than SW in that they want SW to "move along a literary platform" and NOT just a visual/musical one the way lucas always has had it. But instead of simply saying "im not a star wars fan i like films like LOTR better" they do the whole "us aginst the big bad lucas maan! right on!" thing. Its because SW is such a cultural phenomenon they want to be apart of it but they first have to change it to make it the way they like it or as they say "the way it should be". They need to take it away from lucas in order to do this. This is why their is so much interest behind the idea of ANY other filmmaker "taking over" for lucas.

The new "there needs to be more to panaka" thing is a prime example of this misunderstanding/divide. And it proves that what it is these fanboys are saying they want is NOT star wars. And its certainly not George Lucas way of art.

We didnt need to know anything about the guards of the wicked witch of the west's castle in wizard of oz we dont need to know about Caption Panoka.

 

Which scene stood out more than any other and looked really good in 3D?

 

I was recently having a "debate" with someone on youtube who claimed that the prequels were "***t". I asked him to explain to me why The Phantom Menace was so bad and over the course of a few posts it became increasingly obvious that he had no idea what he was talking, no ideas of his own, and was simply parroting what he'd heard elsewhere. One of his "criticisms" was that "...we know nothing about the characters. We have no reason to root for anyone if we don't know who they are" which is basically the old "poorly fleshed out characters" claim. So I asked him to tell me what exactly it was we needed to know about the movie's main protagonist, Qui Gon Jinn, that we didn't already know. He could not answer me. He kept changing the subject and ultimately he did not answer the question. Nor did I expect him to be able to because the truth is that we know exactly what we need to know about all of the characters in order to follow and enjoy the story. This guy was typical of prequel haters. They really know nothing about film making or storytelling and their silly repetition of Red Letter Media's "criticisms" should just be taken with a pinch of salt.

The facts and figures speak for themselves. As somebody pointed out elsewhere on this forum a Nation Gallup poll conducted in 1999 showed that 3/4 of people who watched TPM enjoyed it, describing it as "good," "excellent" or as "one of the greatest they had ever seen". Despite 13 years of internet bashing, TPM still manages an audience approval of 62% on Rotten Tomatoes, 6.5/10 at IMDB, and an average 3.5 out of 5 stars on amazon (with 974 5-star ratings to only 439 1-star ratings), and it made a further $102,727,119 at the box office this year with its 3D release bringing its total to over $1 billion.

Numbers do not lie and in this case they show quite conclusively that TPM haters are most defintely in the minority.

 

I cant stand it when they try to say we dont know who the protagonist is. Try to tell that to the millions of kids who rooted for anakin and the jedi all throughout the movie and dressed up as them all the following Halloweens.

The films protagonist is anakin and we are brought to him by the jedi in the exact same way that we are brought to Luke by the droids in ANH. Its the same exact basic, simple, simple formula. We dont meet luke until a half hour into ANH just like with TPM.

The ONLY difference is that in TPM there is a little bit more time spent on fleshing out the setting and plot before we get to anakin. If you put the chapters on the dvd of ANH side by side against the chapters of TPM its only a VERY SMALL DIFFERENCE between the points where we are introduced to the "main character".

******** In ANH luke is only introduced 5 chapters before Anakin is in TPM ***********

Lucas himself states in the commentary of TPM that "we are introduced to this trilogy through the eyes of the jedi where as we are taken through the next trilogy through the eyes of the droids".

In TPM the jedi take us to anakin and in ANH the droids take us to luke. If anything the fact that it takes TPM 5 extra chapters to get to anakin only gos to show how much of a better job TPM does at establishing so much information in such a short amount of time.

If anything it only proves the exact opposite of what the bashers try to say about TPM vs. ANH because if anything ANH is the "silly, overly kid friendly" one.

ANH is forced to establish the galaxy with silly droid and jawa gags and claustrophobic plastic hallways and deserts where as TPM is MUCH more sophisticated and adult establishing the jedi knights, the old republic, the basic plot and most of the characters all before we get to anakin effectively proving how much more engaging TPM is compared to ANH.

All before we get to ankin we already understand:

1.) the jedi knights (good guys)
2.) the greedy trade federation (bad guys)
3.) the old republic (setting)
4.) the big mysterious threat (the plot)

The journey begins when the jedi and the queen land on tattooine and go to find anakin. Everything else before that is basically a prologue. Just like everything before we meet luke in ANH is basically a prologue.

In ANH we need to have dialogue heavy scenes with darth vader and the imps talking about the senate and the empire because we cant and dont ever SEE the empire. In TPM we immediately establish these things and then also get to journey through them and actually see them in the film.

This is what George Lucas is always talking about when he says the PT is important because it is more effective.

 

The scenes in the Trade Federation bridge, in my opinion.

 

I would hope that this hatred would run its course. Every now and then on random un-related star wars boards, I will find someone tying in star wars to the discussion, saying how the PT was truly awful.

I will feel the urge to ask them why they think its so bad. But I wont. I have heard it all before, and I do not have the patience for the same rehashed nonsense. I suggest making life easier for yourself by trying to ignore these stuff as much as possible.

 

The interior of the TF ship in general really stood out to me. I know that officially, a TF battleship is about 2.2 km across. However, you can't really gauge that with a two-dimensional object, particularly inside. In the 3D version I thought it seemed like those hallways went on just about forever.

 

Once again the vocal proponents for the side (and they may very well be in a majority) that loves the PT completely misunderstands or misrepresents the side that does not. You can never convince me that the PT films are good films. By my tastes and standards they simply are not good films, first and foremost. They have pretty visuals, they have moments of cleverness, they even have, under the hood, some interesting plot development that I have learned to appreciate through argumentation over the years. But as an overall package? They are flimsy, weak, poorly acted, sometimes annoyingly so. They lack chemistry or authenticity to me but I'm not going to go so far as concoct conspiracy theories about how it is all part of George's marketing plan to rule the toy aisles. Anyway, their camp-factor seems way too much an in-joke now. They just never feel genuine or well wrought to me. That's how I originally dismissed them, without any hatred or animosity towards GL. Just as, oh well, he's making mediocre, though pretty darned shiny, films now. Not my cup of tea, these aren't the Jedi I really think he had in mind way back when but obviously he likes this version now, oh well, I've still got the OT...errrr...wait a sec (but that's another issue). And there was absolutely a disappointment because I had hoped they'd be satisfying, that his wealth and expertise would bring something amazing to the screen. Instead it was pretty bland overall, lacking in bringing its various elements together into an immersive whole.

Does this mean the majority can't like it? Not at all. Does it mean I need to admit that the majority is right and I am wrong? Not at all. It may mean I grew up with a different "flavor" of SW that I totally fell in love with and this one is not that and I can't make it be that. Does it mean I only feel this way because I am "over 40". Nope. I love reboots in general, I love seeing what can be done with them. When they succeed to entertain or even add to the previous work, I will champion them, when they don't, I enjoy figuring out why that was too, both for overall reasons but also for personal ones that still matter. The more I hang out on boards as the years go on the more I realize that those who love the PT are experiencing a different SW than I did. And if they love it, more power to them. And if the vocal haters become a focus of their own "taste-war", that's their decision. But to stand on a soap box and champion the films as somehow objectively good and that those that don't like them are blind, don't get it, too old etc, is really quite laughable and just the same behavior from the other side of the coin. Both sides need to be able to get the other or the flame wars will rage on and on and on and ultimately a better understanding of the franchise and its history will be lost to loud mouths on both sides.

 

Correction: most people "liked it"...there are lots of films I would rate as "good". Doesn't mean I would champion it with any sort of intensity or even think was immune to some harsh criticism. Those numbers aren't overly impressive. They just prove that Star Wars is known, appreciated and followed by many people and that most find it entertaining with a small percent thinking the new stuff is the best they have ever seen and a larger percent saying anything from good to ok to meh...

But hey, you can't argue that it does well overall.

 

Nope. This thread deals with the notion that nobody likes TPM, not the opinion that it's a bad movie.





Opinions - they are personal
/LM

 

Right, but to be fair, some of those voicing said "see people do actually like it" opinion are using the opportunity to frame the other side in a particularly negative light. So it is fair game to defend oneself and the perceived reality of one's stand. This conversation is hardly one of "pure facts" and "neutrality".

 

Ok stop right there. You are wrong and you are getting carried away. This "other side" that you speak of that you think your "on" is not even what you think it is. They dont know the meaning of the word "fair". I (and those like me) am not a member of some kind of blindly loyal part of SW fandom. I am a part of a very large entire generation of people (two generations now) who have always genuinely loved and enjoyed how Lucas finished his story and turned an old trilogy of unfinished movies into a multi-generational, timeless Saga that people in other country's who don't even speak English can watch with their children and be touched by. A whole generation of bright, passionate people who were inspired by SW as lucas has been making it since the early 90's.

You have absolutely no idea the bullying, trolling and otherwise plain abuse we go through and have been forced to go through online EVERY SINGLE day at the hand of individuals who have been doing nothing but stubbornly trying to take collective ownership over what Lucas created before most of them even became culturally aware of SW in general or even started to care. Individuals who are proud to think of themselves as obstructionists. Obstructionists who have actually broken the law and DDOS attacked many sites that lucasfilm had something to do with like the amazon blu-ray page when they brought it down for a whole day and then went to "originaltrilogy.com" and places like 4chan simply to brag and let people know how proud they were to do something so petty. Countless individuals who have made death threats towards lucas and his family and turned any comment section anywhere on the internet into all out war zones. Individuals who have smugly and proudly reinforced and built from the ground up an entire complex/vicious cycle of blind hatred against anything/everything with LFL name on it that ever comes out all year long. Every year. Year after year. You have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to this "other side" as you called it as if it is even "a side" which it is not. Maybe at its height it was but not now.

No these individuals are not some "hip, proud, sharp, older group of pure original fans from the magical innocent good old days of the 70's and 80's" as they would have you believe and as (oddly, perhaps even tellingly) many people seem to want to see them as. They are a small minority of angry, loud obstructionists who will resort to stubborn never ending trolling. They know it is not realistic in the slightest to think they will ever be able to take collective ownership over the brand name of SW like they want and so they are only really passionate about rallying as many others as possible to their way of thinking. They do this by loudly and constantly spamming their rhetoric on others across the internet. They do it to keep the anti-lucasfilm culture they have created alive and fun. As fun and filled with humor as they can make it because they use humor to stay energized. They use the forced memes and the soundbites and the youtube reviews and the drive by bashing to appeal to others and strengthen their numbers. No its not a "conspiracy theory" its simply what happens when you have a bunch of stubborn people who dont know how to cope with something that is prominent in the culture. Its the facts and reality of the situation. Its human nature really. A dark side of human nature but a side none the less. When a threatened mind sees something it doesn't fully understand and doesn't learn how to ignore or cope with than it wants to either destroy it or take control of it.

They dont deny this. They acted smug and proud as ever when Lucas made a public comment about how he wouldn't make any more SW films even if he could because of angry people online who dont see any value in anything other than spreading the notion that he is a "horrible person".

Now you and anyone else can stick your head in the sand and pretend that these people dont exist or that they aren't a big part of the problem and frustration that I think almost every fan is forced to go through online but it wont change reality.

 

By the same token *I* could say:

It's not the "haters" dislike that get to some (and I'm not speaking of you here), but their palpable need to dissuade some of us that we are incapable of distinguishing bad movies from good. I was in college when ANH came out, so I'm an "OT originalist" who likes the Saga. I'm more likely, actually, to watch the PT (and I admit it is because I can fast forward through the spots that bore me - pod racing, Geonosis hijinks) but the OT was not perfect , either. Both trilogies appeal to me and for different reasons, but they are all Star Wars to me.

I might even back up some of the "haters" on specific scenes, but I personally don't understand "the other side" that has to shout louder and forever how their opinion trumps others. The true "haters" are like most politicians - he who speaks loudest is quite obviously right.

Wrong!

Unfortunately, folks like me often get lumped in with the "gushers" and the moderates who dislike the OT are lumped in with the "bashers."

Too bad as a group of individuals we can't discuss the SAGA and what about it we like, dislike, or would like to see changed.

 

Who are you again who gets to tell people to stop and then tell them they are getting carried away and wrong? I think you should watch your own bullying habit that you decry below. I've only recently started to post here again and already find that you seem to like to demonize and preemptively silence debate. Maybe I just jumped in at a bad time? And wait a sec, are you saying that there are really only two sides here? The ones who like it all and the ones who don't who get lumped in with the extremists you describe below?

Fair enough, for simplicity sake I was boiling it down to the general "those that love it all" versus "those that have a different impression of the franchise". Sure on both sides there will be all sorts of shades of grey, all sorts of attitudes. But focusing on the loudest ones only allows them to win, no? Why not just ignore them if they are such a small group that will never, as you say below, truly obstruct the franchise? Honestly, I'm not sure where you got that I was saying those (like you) that love it all are "blind" or even in a minority. I only defined the "general" two sides as different. They may actually be a majority but they are still distinguished by a relationship to the franchise that a (shrinking?) number don't have and can't have because they developed a different relationship to it. I think your very description above is actually in harmony with this reality since you describe a changing, growing, multi-generational fan base that did not exist in the same way with the same material years ago.

What? Ok, yes trolling and bullying are prevalent on the internet, I've seen some of it on SW sties, but you make it sound like you're getting bags of flaming dog crap, if not bricks and molotov cocktails hurled at you on your way to work or something. If it is so bad, there must be other means to enjoy the franchise without subjecting yourself to it, no?

But the (also) just as cliche argument that those that wish the PT were different are trying to take collective ownership stubbornly is again trying to paint everyone you don't agree with with the same brush. Fine, you don't see any way in which cultural products, especially ones that infiltrate the minds, vocabulary, imaginations of society in general could be seen to have a collective ownership element, but it doesn't mean that those who do see such nuances are bullies or anything else you wish to accuse them of. There are those who study things such as copyright (and its evolution, it didn't fall from the sky in a vacuum) and the way in which ideas, stories, myths, intellectual properties circulate in culture, and how such unhindered circulation and use is actually conducive to a healthy culture, and it is far from as cut and dry as those that wish to use the "Lucas owns it" argument in their defence. Also, what is this "became culturally aware of SW" troll you speak of? I've never encountered any. Most OT purists I know are pretty thoughtful people with a strong connection, usually life-long, to the franchise. Again, I believe you are generalizing if not demonizing those you don't agree with. Or at the very least lumping all dissenters into the same group as the worst of the worst in order to focus your own argumentation.

Actually, the side I am talking about is the side that would be engaged in conversations and debates on boards like these here but which still, at the end of the day, may not only not agree with you but might have some anger and frustration towards Lucas. This doesn't mean they are in support of people who harass, break the law, make death threats. You are right. This is not a side, this is the ugly sick side of anonymity but often comments against those that only like the OT treat them all as one group. I support the efforts of original trilogy.com to preserve the OOT because I for one think that there is something very problematic about dangling cultural works in front of the public, being lucky enough to have them adore it and then, after years of adoration, deprive them of having it as the technology to support those versions that remain begin to become outmoded and fade away. You can disagree but that doesn't make those you disagree with mindless sociopaths or basically unimportant because some mindless sociopaths happen to seem to be on their side.

Those are your words, I never used "hip, proud, sharp" nor did I glorify the era in which I grew up. That's all you, or at least that's all you distilling arguments you didn't agree with in the past and using it to pigeon hole other people's points of view. Anyway, ok, this group you see as the enemy is not the one I am referring to that did not go away despite the focus on these other nasty types. The other one, the civil one, the ones that are sometimes hanging out around here and trying to give their point of view and opinions without necessarily trying to create trouble, even if tempers can flare from time to time. Most times I have seen fierce arguments develop where things get said that might be regretted (or should be regretted) later happen because both sides aren't really listening to each other.

Again, a subsection of fandom or humanity but perhaps one that is using the internet and anonymity to its full potential, but again, most I have encountered do not do this and are pretty friendly, thoughtful and yes sometimes funny people. Because you've got to be able to laugh about some of this at some point (not the death threats and such, I mean the constant bickering etc)

Or you can see me as sticking my head in the sand, because I've been active on various SW sites for a while now and I'm pretty sure I haven't been unexposed to the possibility that the problem is as drastic as you say since I rarely, if ever, actually encounter, and when I do, give much credence to these extreme types. They usually even get ignored by other purists from my experience. If Lucas truly is quitting because of this, he's got to stay off IMDB and sites where people aren't as well moderated and get away with stupidity like death threats and such. I'm out there looking to participate and find it hard to find these extreme examples you seem to be finding everywhere. Sure it is hip to make fun of new Star Wars and Lucas, but it usually ends there from my experience, little jabs from people who then also go on to put down lots of other elements of pop culture.

 

Thanks for this post Obi-rib-kenobi4, I agree with every word!

 

First I diagree with your label of the OT as "unfinished films". They were finished for over 15 years and people liked them. That the story could continue or that backstories could be told doesn't make them "unfinsihed" to me.
The LOTR films are finsihed but this year a prequel film is made. That film doesn't make the previous films "unfinished" in any way.

Second, I did a quick Google search for "Star Wars" and in the first four pages I found ONE link to RLM's site, that's it. The rest were links to Wikipedia, Wookipedia, IMDB, LEGO Star Wars, the official site, gaming sites, online shops that sell movies etc.
Hardly the wall of negativity you talk about.

Third, the real "haters" and yes there are some, are very, VERY few. What I take issue with is your tendency to lump everyone that do not totally love the PT with these people. In other words, if you offer up any complaint at all of the PT, no matter how minor, then you get labeled "a Hater" or "Mindless RLM fanboy."

Fourth, I have come across quite a lot of hate and hostility from the "PT defenders" and back in the day any person that dared to offer any complaint, even a minor one, got him or herself flamed to high heaven andf low hell.
That was one reason why the Sanc. were created here. It was simply impossible to discuss any flwas or cirtisicm of the PT without it degenerating into a flame brawl.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

To add to my previous post.

A civil and interesting discussion is never helped by sticking labels to other people.
"The people that liked the PT are THIS", or "The people that dislike the PT are THAT."
It serves no good purpose and only creates hostility.

Talk about the actual points raised for or against something and stick to that. Leave the labeling out of it.

As to the subject matter, that was disproven over ten years ago.
The idea that "everyone hates the PT" only needs one person that likes it to prove that idea wrong.
And since a great many more than one DO like the PT, the claim has been false from day one.

Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

So you too believe it is ok to lump those that are thoughtfully and sincerely critical of the PT in with people who threaten the life of Lucas's family?

Good for you.

 

If anything the misunderstanding here is that we are getting "lumped in" by you with the people who automatically lump others into groups. First of all this whole argument is questionable at best because the ones who bash on the PT usually learn their complaints from the party that your saying we unfairly "lump you into". So when we have to address you all we are doing is addressing the same issues that were made up and patented by the dedicated bashers/obstructionists.

Its like saying "hey just because i hold lots of republican beliefs and i sympathize with mitt romney doesn't mean i should get lumped in with the hardcore wingnuts" your still following their line of thought and their rhetoric. Your still taking their side and furthering their goals weather you realize it or not. Your just victimizing yourself for being called out on it.

Nobody is saying your as bad as the worst bashers but people need to start becoming aware of the hateboy complex machine that only makes things frustrating for everyone involved. People need to (at the very least) be able to realize when they are feeding it.

 

Say what now?

No they don't learn it. They probably already find it not so great or plain bad and then someone more articulate than they says something clever and they say, yep, that was what I was thinking. The indoctrination program you see at work is your perception but overall, from my experience with actually engaging with people who love or hate or like or find them mind blowing or only ok is that they have all formed their own opinions by sharing their opinions. But this idea that nobody besides you and yours has a legitimate opinion seems to be your schtick so I doubt I will ever convince you otherwise.

No it is not, you're oversimplifying, again, because it is the way you get to feel better about your own opinions and because you start with the assumption that anyone who doesn't see things your way must have learned their point of view from elsewhere. Not to mention your obvious black and white, either this or that (absolutist) thinking which is mildly disturbing. I'm not a victim, I just simply like to make sure a nuanced understanding continues to thrive in the hobby where I choose to spend too much energy and time. That's my schtick I suppose. If you want to see me as victimizing myself, go right ahead. I'm pretty sure the same could be said for you who sees anyone who doesn't like the PT as a bully, coming at you daily with their learned-by-rote opinions that they couldn't possibly have come up with on their own.

Yes. Yes they do. They especially need to learn they are doing it when they think they are not because they supposedly stand on the side of the people they think are right.

 

After being on the internet for the last 10 years and having to hide the fact that I enjoyed the PT for fear of horrible retribution (which I often got when I slipped up)? Yes, pretty much.
And I haven't really seen any "thoughtful and sincere criticism", just reworded of the same rhetoric that can be found on redlettermedia.

 

That's your perception. To you it is rhetoric, to others it is what they truly believe and have thought long and hard about. RLM didn't give me opinions to rehash, he simply said much of what I was thinking. You help maintain the animosity and grounds for horrible retribution if you don't acknowledge this.