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PT Was the war with the Separatists/clone wars unjust?

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Lord Tyrannus, Oct 19, 2012.

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  1. Lord Tyrannus

    Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 18, 2012
    The republic and the Jedi went to war with the Seperatists, a large group of star systems in the galaxy who wanted to leave the republic. But why were they really evil? The Republic was corrupt, George Lucas said that himself and the movies said it too, that's why they left it. How was the Galactic Republic the ideal government in the galaxy if they started a war over people who wanted to leave them, for being a corrupt bad form of galactic government in the first place? They were not trying to harm the Republic.
     
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  2. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 16, 2005
    So you buy the propaganda?

    Seriously, though, on what do you base the assertion that the CIS was harmless? They invaded and enslaved planets. The motives of many of the separatists may not have been "evil," of course, but the movement was not benign by any means.

    And of course the Republic had corruption - EVERY government has some.
     
  3. Lord Tyrannus

    Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 18, 2012
    The republic went to war with the CIS because they wanted to keep them as part of their government. They wanted to control people who wanted to leave them. When did the Separatists invade and enslave planets?
     
  4. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    The Trade Federation invades Naboo in TPM- and they're one of the chief groups of the CIS.

    That said, it's mostly the EU that outlines what was going on with the CIS just before and just after the Battle of Geonosis.
     
  5. DarthBoba

    DarthBoba Manager Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 29, 2000
    The only reason the Republic attacked first would be because Obi-Wan alerted them that a Sep invasion was imminent.
     
  6. Lord Tyrannus

    Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 18, 2012
    The Seperatists did not want to take over the galaxy. If they invaded Naboo once in TPM, I don't see why they have to start a big war over a little skirmish like that, a war that lets the emperor rise to power and get loyal followers, and, the events of the original trilogy. When did the movies say the Separatists wanted to take over?

    Was the Separatist government bad, the way that it ruled?
     
  7. Valairy Scot

    Valairy Scot Manager Emeritus star 6 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Sep 16, 2005
    They were bad because they were created by GL to be bad. If you can't accept the "creator's" word and don't see it in the movies, then nothing will persuade you and your complaint should be that GL didn't show what he's telling.
     
  8. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    There were heroes on both sides, according to GL.
     
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  9. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Which is not the same as saying that the war was just, or unjust for that matter- it simply means that there were people who behaved "heroically".

    You can have the Separatists planning on invading the Republic with their droid army (only to be thwarted in their surprise attack by the events of AoTC) and yet still have some heroes. Not every Separatist soldier was a battle droid, after all.
     
  10. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Well, the leaders of the Republic planned to impose a dictatorship upon the cosmos... Neither side was all good, or all bad. Planets should have the right to secede. It's a democracy - a voluntary union. Fighting a war about that is wrong, IMHO. But fighting a war because the other side planned to invade - its a debate of 'hitting first' which is different.
     
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  11. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 28, 2005
    While the Separatists aren't depicted in a heroic manner nearly ever in the prequels, we can't forget that the entire war (and Separatist movement) was planned and staged by the head of the Republic. The Separatist alliances weren't wrong for wanting to be free of restrictions, but they um... at least somewhat knowingly allowed a Sith to be their leader.
     
  12. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    And didn't have any idea what a Sith was. Dooku was a respected and beloved leader. Him being a butcher was not evident to the general populace. He was, fundamentally, a Jedi to them. Grievous was the nutter for them.
     
  13. StampidHD280pro

    StampidHD280pro Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jul 28, 2005
    Yeah, but... the cape, the bushy eyebrows, the villain beard, all black, the red lightsaber.... he's going for the "maverick" image at least. Maybe even anti-hero, like Batman.
     
  14. Lord Tyrannus

    Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 18, 2012
    What's a maverick? Also, why would it matter if the Separatists had a sith as their leader?
     
  15. The Supreme Chancellor

    The Supreme Chancellor Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 4, 2012
    They were created by GL to be the antagonists in the Clone Wars, but not necessarily bad. If you have a thorough knowledge of what goes on during the CW you know there were genuine beings who wanted a civilized government separated from the corruption of the Republic for the better of their peoples. But yes, most of the CIS leaders were power-hungry war mongers.

    The CIS DID want to take over most of the galaxy, or what was ruled by the Republic. If you watched AOTC you see Dooku meeting with them plotting to use the droid army to overwhelm the Jedi and take over the Republic. That's taking over. Many of the CIS regimes were in fact brutally oppressive, but there were some like that in the Republic as well.

    If you have a Sith Lord as your organizations leader you are essentially adopting the Sith philosophy about cyclical changes in power, oppression and death. That's pretty bad. I know I wouldn't want a Sith Lord as my president.
     
  16. Lord Tyrannus

    Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 18, 2012
    That's true. The Separatist government was ruled by Dooku, a sith lord. But, here's what I don't get. The sith are obviously evil. They did a lot of atrocities throughout the saga and that shows it. But, how exactly was Dooku himself evil? Why does a Sith's philosophy and religion matter, if they're the ruler, and it's their personal philosophy? What evil things, would Dooku have done if, what if, he became the leader of a successful seceded Separatist government? Would he have been a dictator, and, if so, what would he have done as a ruler?
     
  17. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    Nobody knew what a Sith was. No Sith had been in the public sphere for a millennium. That's the equivalent of a Norman Duke or Spanish Crusader unmasking themselves. We know a lot about them from a historical perspective, but we do not know what drives them. We also know that history is wrote by the winners, so the opinions on the religion could be eschewed.
     
  18. Sistros

    Sistros Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Jul 24, 2010
    the truth of the matter is this

    Lucas disagreed with the American war of independence and thought segregation from England was wrong and corrupt.


    I'm kidding of course ;)
     
  19. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    It's interesting that the Separatists have a Parliament- with a very British aesthetic- whereas the Republic has a Senate.

    Like a reversal of the War of Independence in that respect.
     
  20. DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR

    DARTHVENGERDARTHSEAR Force Ghost star 5

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    Jun 8, 2002
    I believe this is what Owen Lars was referring to when he said "a foolish, idealistic crusade.", because both sides weren't worth fighting for.

    Here's what the movies tell us.

    Taxes had been imposed on the outer system trade routes.

    The Trade Federation, in protest of these new taxes, were persuaded to blockade Naboo so it would force the Republic to rescind this new legislation.

    The Republic is governed by a corrupt Senate and is heavily influenced by the Sith.

    The Naboo (with no help from the Republic) defeats the Trade Federation.

    A former Jedi named Dooku, who became tired of the ineptitude of both the Republic and his order, decides to leave both to return and reclaim his nobility.

    Count Dooku, for some mysterious reason, decides to get involved again and convinces several thousand solar systems to secede.

    In order to fund his campaign against the Republic, he tries to get the greedy corporations to side with his cause and therefore sign treaties in order to get these funds.

    In the end, the Republic is governed by the corrupt and so is the CIS.

    The Jedi Knights should not have gotten involved.
     
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  21. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I think it was Obi-Wan being captured on Geonosis that convinced Yoda to get involved.
     
  22. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    If they didn't, then PalpSidious will twist their actions around to have it look like they're siding with the Seperatists. He'll fool the Republic into believing this concept and have them declare the Jedi as traitors thus leading them to grant PalpSidious permission to initiate Order 66 upon the Jedi.

    The Jedi were doomed no matter what they do.
     
  23. Lord Tyrannus

    Lord Tyrannus Jedi Padawan star 4

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    Oct 18, 2012
    If palpatine didn't want absolute power and to transform the republic into the empire, order 66 never would have happened. The only reason that the Emperor had all the Jedi killed was so they wouldn't get in the way of him getting more power. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but that's the impression I got from the movies. There may have been other reasons for Order 66. The Jedi were not doomed.

    The Jedi should'nt have gotten involved with the Seperatist war. However, they did invade several planets. But that would have happened anyway. So, the jedi doing to war with the CIS was very unjust, but it would be just if they defended the planets that the CIS invaded.
     
  24. PMT99

    PMT99 Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Nov 23, 2000
    But PalpSidious DID want absolute power which is why he created both the Seperatist movement and the Clone Wars in the first place. He needed those events to scare the Republic into giving him more power and complete authority over the galaxy. As for the Jedi, they're not helping anyone by not getting involved in this war and the galactic population will hate them for their refusal to fight. PalpSidious will take advantage of the Jedi's inaction which brings me back to the whole "declaring them traitors" part and Order 66. He would need a legitimate reason to convince the Republic to renounce the Jedi as their protectors and other than an assassination attempt, which he framed them for, disloyalty and insubordination is the next best thing for PalpSidious to declare them "enemies of the Republic".
     
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  25. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

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    Nov 15, 2004
    If the Jedi had stayed out, they still would have launched a coup inevitably to stop the violence.

    It was the coup which justified Order 66 after all.
     
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