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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit The Continuity Snarl Celebration thread

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Charlemagne19, Oct 22, 2012.

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  1. Sinrebirth

    Sinrebirth Mod-Emperor of the EUC, Lit, RPF and SWC star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Nov 15, 2004
    Um, since when?

    And? It's a big planet. Parts of it were unmapped by the Mando's in 40 ABY!

    And? It was the capital in RC... which didn't visit Mandalore until the third book - i.e. 24 months into the war? It was the capital (again) by then is certainly possible.

    That depends on when Maul's story-arc is set in the continuity. If it's pre-24 months (which I expect), then it's fine.

    The old continuity was hardly spot-on. The Mandalorian army is decimated by 18 Jedi.

    Eh?

    In the new continuity, one of the two smaller warrior factions gets decimated by 18 Jedi.

    Works better.

    In the old continuity, Death Watch does nothing after Galidraan. Literally nothing is detailed about their victory.

    In the new continuity, Death Watch tries to destroy the New Mandalorians after they beat Jango's faction.

    And before someone cites that 'Jango is not a Mandalorian' from TCW at me, that is correct. Because the definition of a Mandalorian is set by the New Mandalorians. I have little doubt, if we chatted with Jango or Vizsla, that they'd say that 'Satine is not a Mandalorian'.
     
  2. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004
    Why argue if we agree on all points... ??? Cause i agree with you
     
  3. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Loving Tyrant of SWTV, Lit, & Collecting star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Reading the X-Wing books, a lot of the character's backstories simply cannot work because Stackpole and Allston were writing under the assumption that the Clone Wars happened closer to 40 or 30 BBY, so a lot of ages don't work as a result. Especially with Corran, since Jedi Trial mentions that Neeja's son is very young, while Corran is supposed to be about Luke's age. :confused:

    Then there's Tyria Sarkin and her origin as an Antarian Ranger. Supposedly the Jedi and Rangers often intermarried and that is why she has a minor connection to the Force. But we know from the prequels that the Jedi that would have been her grandparents or great grandparents would have followed the non-attachment rule.

    These books also go by the original idea that the Jedi Purge happened much later than the end of the Clone Wars. Can it all work? Not exactly, but somehow Corran still exists, so it does? There's just no end to it! [face_dancing]
     
  4. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    Remember how Luke used to figure out Force strength? Poking you in the brain and seeing if it pokes back?

    Thank god for midi-chlorians. [face_peace]
     
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  5. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Loving Tyrant of SWTV, Lit, & Collecting star 6 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 16, 2008
    Ah yes, KJA is the source of many a snarl. Like how there was a body-less Sith lord (Simus) way before we got leg-less Maul.

    And don't forget, Darth Vader had a beach house by the sea on Coruscant. Y'know, the planet that's one big city.
     
  6. Lazy Storm Trooper

    Lazy Storm Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 18, 2012
    I just checked on Wookiepedia and saw nothing of the sort. Ohhh... I see what you did there.
     
  7. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Can actually still work with a few of the less conformist Jedi sects, though it would work better if the Rangers where a Pre Ruusan institution.



    Wasn't that from Black Fleet (the bad part of it)?
     
  8. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Loving Tyrant of SWTV, Lit, & Collecting star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    Gorefiend Too bad there's a set date for the establishment of the Rangers, most definitely after Ruusan.

    And yes, Vader's invisible beach house was from Black Fleet Crisis. :p
     
  9. Lazy Storm Trooper

    Lazy Storm Trooper Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 18, 2012
    I think the way Mandos are presented in TCW is just bad. TCW just mess up cannon in general but lately I have been watching it and think it is not too bad. I still don't love it as much as the original multimedia campaign but I will say it is entertaining to watch.
     
  10. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I think at the time the idea was that Coruscant was mostly city rather than all city.

    Retcons probably made the "sea" one of Coruscant's biggest reservoirs.
     
  11. mulberry

    mulberry Jedi Knight star 1

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2009
    I am afraid I don't have an example of this at the ready, but it always drives me crazy how often you will have two people who know each other, go to a planet for different reasons, and JUST SO HAPPEN to run into each other. WHAT ARE THE ODDS!!

    I can see that happening if it was a planet with just a couple small villages, but it seems like this has happened on planets like Coruscant and Corellia way too often.
     
  12. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    Yep
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Victory_Lake
     
  13. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004

    thank god for these reservoirs... in Black Fleet one could see them from space... in Prequels not so much.

    now... the more worrying question is... how big an ocean of "used water" does Coruscant have? there must be entire oceans that consist of whatever went down flushed. [face_whistling] then there is atmospheric repercussions of its smell.

    lets hope the Vong did only pierce the fresh water supply oceans and not those too.. or else Coruscant after the NJO looks like the darker side of Venice.

    in the end, huge oceans on coruscant make sense given the aquatic species needing housing too and probably build theirs in these reservoirs on ocean floor or lots of building in the water bodies of the planet.
     
  14. Gorefiend

    Gorefiend Chosen One star 5

    Registered:
    Oct 23, 2004
    That would one thing that make the lower levels such a fun place to life. ;)

    I could have sworn that was actually a plot point in one of the NJO novels where the Vong just seeded the lower levels with giant garbage eating creatures that later malfunction do to the world brain messing with them by having the waste regurgitated back up in front of Shimrras Citadel.



    They properly would not need oceans, they are more likely to go with buildings that have regulated environments, which potential could be huge pools or whole buildings where you could swim from level to level.
     
  15. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004

    Exactly the plotpoint I meant ;)

    And buildings with regulated environments are nice but do not suffice I think... they too like natural environments and not just artificial closed spaces filled with water. Imagine a huge sea, open to the sky. that they'd love. and orbital mirrors can cook seafood like Mon Calamari easier then :p


    as for "brown" Coruscant with underlevels filled with "poodoo". If orderly Coruscant has these troubles.. I'd better not start thinking about Nar Shaddah! there were comics and else hinting at that.. TOR also did.
     
  16. cthugha

    cthugha Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2010
    My favorite "continuity snarl" (and yes, I know people have given good reasons for this; I still think it's weird) is how people in the GFFA seem to forget all about the Jedi during the reign of Palpatine (which is less than a human generation long, and don't forget there are lots of long-lived species about), or about the Sith after all those millennia of quite-public Sith wars (one of which led into the reformation of the Republic, so we can guess it's probably still taught in schools).

    So during the Clone Wars there were Jedi hopping around everywhere, spectacularly protecting people from evil droid armies -- and twenty years later Han Solo (who has seen quite his share of things, and met lots of people) says he doesn't believe in all that magic hoodoo?

    So an educated man like Bail Organa (I think it was him) has never heard of any of the I-don't-know-how-many Sith wars that have shaped the Republic he serves -- "What's that, a Sith?"

    Things like that make my brain go snarl 8-}
     
  17. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Bail said that during the Clone Wars (In Wild Space). I think the reason for lack of knowledge of Sith was that the Jedi had been keeping them as secret as possible.

    Maybe the "Sith" aspect of those wars was glossed over on the Jedi's advice?
     
  18. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004
    Only fanboys deal in absolutes... neither Jedi, nor Sith do :p

    Jedi and Sith are essentially the same. All differences are neglectable when it comes to the average population with one exception: Sith are merely Jedi out of control. And while many NSW Sith are not Jedi by birth, in later years many Jedi fell as we saw with some Ruusan Sith who had been Jedi once (Githany!). Also the Sith got started by dissident Jedi 7000BBY as well as at beginning of NSW. the average population sees Sith as Jedi who want to rule.

    It is as simple as that and thus why all willingly forgot the Jedi and embraced the Jedi purge, that got rid of the Jedi who were responsible for creating Count Dooku and by extension the Clone Wars indirectly. Add to that that the 10000 Jedi were rare in the galaxy and in most corners hardly ever seen so that many people never met Jedi even during their golden age. Thus.. they wern't forgotten, just reduced from a myth that exists, to a myth that no longer exists by the Empire.
     
  19. cthugha

    cthugha Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 24, 2010
    As I said, there are many more-or-less "plausible" explanations, but I still think it takes a lot of assumptions to just explain this away -- for example, during the Clone Wars the Jedi were definitely more than just a "myth", no matter how big the galaxy and how comparatively small their numbers. Think of HoloNet coverage of the war; think of the prologue to Stover's RotS novelization, which clearly mentions the universal fame surrounding Skywalker and Kenobi. Household names and every kid's hope in 19 BBY, utterly forgotten some 25 years later? I don't think so.

    But then, I'm not here to argue, folks -- I'm here to celebrate the snarl [face_party]
     
  20. Quinnocent-Till-Sith

    Quinnocent-Till-Sith Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 21, 2004
    I think I've rationalised this to myself as a combination of how effective the purge was and the Jedi Order's perceived betrayal. Either it hurts to speak of the people you looked up to or such talk risks you being branded as anti-Imperial. I suppose the lightsaber would become synonymous with Vader anyway.
     
  21. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    On my end, I *LIKE* the continuity snarl that the Jedi Knights WERE universally famous but everyone jumped on the bandwagon that the Force was a myth and that the Jedi were fakers because people are weak-minded fools.

    The thing is, certain people KNOW this is stupid and the people who believe it are idiots. Tarkin, for example, is never portrayed in the OT as disbelieving in Vader's powers (maybe a little unnerved to see the Force in action but not surprised). Motti, on the other hand, has bought into it hook-line and sinker.

    I think it makes more sense to believe Jedi and Sith are household names in the galaxy as presented in the EU, though. I don't have a problem with people who disbelieve in the Force, though, because it's a big assumption to make - that this group literally has God on their side versus stage tricks.

    The characterization of the Bounty Hunters other than Boba Fett are something that bothers me to no end as the original portrayals were the "Four Best Bounty Hunters in the Galaxy...and Dengar." Zuckuss and Bossk have both been treated as being all over the place in characterization since then. Trying to wield them all together just makes no sense to me and diminishes both characters.

    Here's a Snarl for me, though. It's a bit of a personal problem with the All-Father's writing, though.

    4. What are you rebelling against?

    TPM and AOTC are very disconnected stories with about ten years worth of continuity we have no insight into. The story starts us with a Republic so corruipt and so ineffectual that it is possible for the East India Company-esque Trade Federation to invade a sovereign nation without reprisal. Cut forward ten years and all these corporate fat cats are about ready to risk their positions and power to....rebel against the group that doesn't in any way impede them? There's some serious missing story here.
     
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  22. Mia Mesharad

    Mia Mesharad Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    The New Battlefronts Visual Guide uses the word "portions", while the Warfare guide uses the word "swathes". Either way, there's enough room to allow for the large desertscape seen in this image, while not invalidating the established forest areas of Mandalore's northern hemisphere. The Sahara is quite large, as is the Gobi, yet they're hardly representative of the most prominent terrain on Earth.

    The Essential Atlas states Keldabe as the capital of Mandalore, from as far back as prior to the Mandalorian Wars. The rise of Sundari and the other "bio-cube" cities was covered in the New Battlefronts guide, and in conjunction with the Atlas, cites the isolation of the New Mandalorian society from the other clans. Sundari is obviously the capital recognized by the Republic, but that doesn't intrude on the status of Keldabe for the Mandalorians themselves, or anyone seeking to do business with the clans.

    The Atlas also tackles the issue of Mandalore's conflicting allegiances for the Republic and Confederacy during the Clone Wars, stating that it's just a matter of time. Mandalore's a Republic world at the war's start, but following the rise of Spar as Mand'alor and his (vaguely-written for obvious reasons) triumph over the New Mandalorians, previous Mandalorian canon per the History of the Mandalorians and Republic Commando take the forefront again, with the New Mandalorians dwindling in influence and power.

    We don't see the green regions of Mandalore in the series, but nor do we see Nar Shaddaa in orbit of Nal Hutta. There's no reason to think Nar Shaddaa has suddenly vanished, is there? The same goes for Mandalore's forests. Their existence is corroborated by the Atlas in the wake of the show's changes, so canon is preserved.

    Events in the show center upon Sundari. When anyone goes to Mandalore, they go to Sundari. When they discuss events on Mandalore, it's always something going on in Sundari. One city. Even with everything coming―Maul's invasion and Death Watch's sacking of the city―it's still only one city. Out in the desert. Obi-Wan will care, the Jedi will likely care, and the Republic will care on principle. But why would the clans care? Why would they give a crap at all about the capital of a faction that's turned their back on them, denounced them at every turn, and even tried to ship off some of their people into exile on one of the moons? I can't imagine that they would.

    From my point of view, later EU stories have had no reason to reference the New Mandalorians or the events surrounding them. They weren't particularly important to the events of Mandalore's Imperial occupation in the Marvel comics, nor the Mandalorian portion from the Legacy of the Force novels decades later. Maybe Stover will throw in a nod or two should Imperial Commando 2 actually materialize, but even then, how necessary is it to a plot that deal with a specific group of individuals in a region likely on the other side of the planet? Future guides and encompassing sources should absolutely reference the series' New Mandalorian events as appropriate, but I can't really see the lack of inclusion in current sources a legitimate plot hole or anything of that nature.
     
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  23. Charlemagne19

    Charlemagne19 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Jul 30, 2000
    Unfortunately, for me, this smacks of the attitude that the New Mandalorians aren't an important part of Mandalorian culture and a desire to just pretend it didn't happen. This is, I think, a crying waste of potential. I think the idea of having something like pacifist Mandalorians as a genuine group within Mandalorian society and who look upon the regular Mandalorians with nothing but contempt has a lot of potential.

    A seasoned writer like Mathew Stover could do wonders with people like Boba Fett and Jango facing down people who consider them nothing more than scum. Let's face it, Boba Fett IS scum and the romanticism of his character has never changed that. Even Karen Traviss wrote him as an enormous slimego.

    I like the idea that not all groups and cultures in Star Wars are static.
     
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  24. Todd the Jedi

    Todd the Jedi Mod and Loving Tyrant of SWTV, Lit, & Collecting star 6 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Oct 16, 2008
    So I'm guessing you haven't heard the rumor that he's continuing/finishing up the Imperial Commando series.
     
  25. CeiranHarmony

    CeiranHarmony Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    May 10, 2004

    gloriously missing my entire point... *sigh* I agree with all you said, but that was not at all what I meant or discussed here.

    my point was not the EU perspective on things, but the out of universe business perspective of SW companies that in the future will more likely produce and use TCW likeness to Mando culture over EU one, especially if Live Action series comes around in Dark Times and gives us TCW Mandalore all over again for whatever weird reason. The EU is fine, always has been! It is Lucas who will in future works rather go back to his TCW Mandalore instead of the EU one. And with that in mind it is dangerous to use a retcon that gives the EU Mandalore the advantage over the tiny pacifist faction in the desert.That's no critique there, I love the retcon like you do and want to keep it.

    And still I doubt the Clans would NOT care if Jedi, Sith, seppies or republic invaded their world. Even if far away in a rogue pacifist faction. We know that Death Watch took over the world in Imperial Commando 1 novel and that the non-Watch clans are curious about them and careful given Death Watch's power yet still not fully under Death Watch control.

    And I want the future Eu stories to reference both factions, pacifist mandos and clans.. at least if pacifists ceased to exist have them be remembered. that way it grows more together. ignorance is not helping there.
     
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