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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Discussion Rick McCallum

Discussion in 'Archive: Disney Era Films' started by SaberJedi2, Nov 8, 2012.

  1. SithLordDarthRichie

    SithLordDarthRichie CR Emeritus: London star 9

    Registered:
    Oct 3, 2003
    Darkness is good, bad things happen in the dark
     
  2. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    Too bad it wasn't crammed with a decent script, charismatic characters, or entertaining dialogue. There's one thing to "see" in Empire that can't be seen in the prequels: a film that's got its priorities straight.
     
  3. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    1. Sorry I had two different things confused. But do some digging, there is still some info on RotJ out there from the time period that is very illuminating.

    2. Yeah, I'm serious. Kersh was completely uninspired. ESB looks like his other boring movies, "Return of A Man Called Horse", "The Eyes of Laura Mars", "Robocop 2". Whenever great visualists are talked about, love him or hate him, Lucas's name inevitably comes up; if someone has nothing else good to say about him they will concede that he is a brilliant imagist. No one remembers a single image from any Kershner movie apart from ESB. If the toned down look of ESB is more your taste, cool. For me, ANH, RotJ, the PT & TCW are what SW should look like: vibrant and exploding with fresh ideas and visual references, not static and dreary.

    But this is the part of Lucas's work that is the most technical, arcane, and complex, and a lot of SW fans just skip over it like it wasn't there or give it little to no attention. I can understand that. The OT delivered an emotional and imaginative punch that left a big impression. But I'm not penned in by that. I'm a Lucas fan before I'm a SW fan.
     
  4. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    "Too bad it wasn't crammed with a decent script, charismatic characters, or entertaining dialogue. There's one thing to "see" in Empire that can't be seen in the prequels: a film that's got its priorities straight."

    If it's priority was to be flat and boring, mission accomplished!

    ESB has no story at all, it's a series of episodes leading to one moment. It has plenty of bad clunky dialogue. I get why people like it but it's not that special. The best parts are between Luke & Yoda and the climax. That leaves a whole lot of movie that is incredibly static. No great drama is happening. We learn nothing new about Han or Leia. Han has absolutely nothing to say about the world, he's just an ordinary guy flirting with a princess. Leia has nothing to say either, apart from "Get to your ships!" and "I'm not in love with you: really really really really, I'm not!! Wait: Iove you!" Luke just listens to other people talk at him. Until the end of the movie Vader is literally one gag: he chokes people to death. The visuals are flat, the framing lifeless and boring, and the pacing is as mordant as TPM but with nothing to look at; and I can understand why/how GL stumbled into the holes he did on the PT, he was trying a number of elaborate ideas out. Kersh? He really thought that a slow pace is more "dramatic", that smoke and shadows are more "atmospheric", and that one twist makes a movie.
     
  5. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    I think you're wrong in just about everything you say here. Like, dead wrong. Are we talking about the same movie?
     
  6. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    I love how people think that simply insisting that ESB has great drama and visuals somehow makes it true.

    I have yet to see one compelling argument made for this movie. It is simply accepted that it is the best written, directed, and mounted SW movie, and if you don't agree, you're an idiot.

    I'd like to see, just once, someone actually defend ESB with more than insults and foot-stamping.
     
    darklordoftech and Samnz like this.
  7. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    "Are we talking about the same movie?"

    I don't know, are we talking about the same movie when it's TPM?
    Of course, how can I possibly argue against the fact that you think I'm dead wrong?
    I give you facts, which you can look up and see are real, and you give me an ultimatum: agree with you or accept that I'm wrong and stupid.

    Perhaps you can see why no one has yet to convince me that ESB is the best SW movie.
     
  8. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 5, 2001
    The-Eternal-Hero, you wanna open an anti-Empire thread? I'll join you ;)
    This one is about Rick, after all.
     
  9. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    Poor Rick. He even gets upstaged by ESB in his own Thread...
     
    DarthHumbug likes this.
  10. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    You haven't been giving facts, you've been giving your opinion. And in my opinion, you're wrong. "Right" or "wrong" being subjective, but I'm assuming you know that.

    I also don't remember accusing you of being stupid. I do however, think you're going against what you said earlier about not imposing your own criteria on an artist's work. It seems to me that's exactly what you're doing. But we all do, so that's no crime.
     
  11. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    For what it's worth, I don't think Rick should have stayed on as Producer for the new films.

    He really bookmarks a certain era of Lucasfilm starting with Young Indy. It's special and it has its own feel to it. We're heading into new territory now.
     
  12. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    I get this stuff from GL. Interviews, articles from the time in magazines like Cinefex & American Cinematographer, and from following his career my whole life. There's also the TPM DVD and books published by Lucasfilm. I have a nice hefty book of interviews from the 70's and 80's and he's talking about this stuff as early as THX11. All of this is a part of GL's style and his intentions for the PT. Some of it I picked up on because I was already on the same page and also familiar with his work, some of it came from interviews with him between 1999 and the present. It's there. It was designed to be that way. Some of it depends on your frame of reference. For instance, Europe just before WWI is one of the models for the Old Republic in TPM. I recognized that because I'm a WWI buff; but also because Lucas produced about 17 hours of WWI drama (straight through Versailles) with Young Indy, so I wasn't surprised when that spilled over to TPM. I also knew how to "read" that part of the story. I enjoy that aspect of it, but few general audience members will recognize it or care. Things like that enhance the film for me in ways that are lacking on ESB and other genre movies.

    Here's a book Lucas commissioned to help explain the historical parallels with SW:

    http://www.amazon.com/Star-Wars-History-Lucasfilm/dp/0470602007/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352474727&sr=1-1&keywords=history and star wars

    Note the cover image. I'm sure it's not an accident, Padme in her Kabuki make up is hardly the most popular SW character. The PT is more overtly rooted in historical parallels than the OT.

    A lot of SW fans just aren't that familiar with Lucas's other work or his intentions as an artist. None of this is me "reading into" the films. He blabs all about it on the DVDs and in interviews.
     
    -NaTaLie- likes this.
  13. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    You've kind of gone off on a tangent here, so I'll just say "oorah" and move on. You're right about one thing: the general audience probably couldn't care less about the allegorical nature of the prequels. I sure don't. Allegory has never struck me as being all that clever, frankly. Ymmv.
     
  14. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    Your cop-out is accepted.

    Allegory and parallel are two different things.
     
  15. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    I also love how OT purists always ask for examples and quotations etc. and when you provide them they simply say, "You're still wrong, forget about it." Classic.
     
    sidious1000 likes this.
  16. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    Call it a cop-out if you want, but this topic is yawn inducing. Who wants to read a debate between two dorks on whether or not ESB is a lesser film because it doesn't feature a ham-fisted effort at alle......err, to draw parallel between 20th century world history and.............

    .........sorry, I drifted off there.
     
  17. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    Or a third dork commenting on...sorry, I drifted off there...
     
  18. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    I'm the second dork, silly.
     
  19. The-Eternal-Hero

    The-Eternal-Hero Jedi Knight star 4

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    Nov 3, 2012
    We are all the "Second Dork".
     
  20. -NaTaLie-

    -NaTaLie- Force Ghost star 4

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    Nov 5, 2001
    I guess I'm the third dork here ;)
    All Star Wars movies have plenty of historical parallels (and mythological archetypes, and references to the classical cinema, and what not). It's part of the reason why it's fun to analyze it.
     
    darklordoftech likes this.
  21. Cantina Bassist

    Cantina Bassist Jedi Knight star 2

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    Nov 5, 2012
    No doubt. I can't let my wife know I'm posting here or I'll be cut off indefinitely.
     
  22. cbagmjg

    cbagmjg Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jul 12, 2006
    I never thought I'd see the day when people would actually argue over whether ESB or TPM was better. Here's a fact...Facts can't be made when it comes 2 personal preference! So here's a real fact...ESB was & is still far more critically acclaimed than TPM.

    My opinion is that while I still enjoyed the TPM for what it was (far more than I did AOTC ), it would be almost forgetable if it didn't have the Star Wars name attached 2 it. The PT was not much more than a pixar movie with some live action actors sprinkled in. Take Liam Neeson out & it's easily my least favorite. While Jar Jar doesn't bother me as much as he does most fans, the purple balls of magic they use as weapons do. GL should of stuck with more primative weapons considering the Gungans are a primative race.

    ESB is still my favorite of the whole because I like the deeper, darker, & more emotional tone. I also prefer the Nolan Batmans to the Marvel movies for the same reason. Yet, I don't think every Star Wars movie should have a dark tone. There was a dark element in ROTJ with Luke-Vader-Emperor showdown (which might be my favorite scene of the whole series), but the rest of the movie is far lighter in comparison to ESB. I have to say, all around, ROTJ is the most entertaining movie in the series. But like I said, its just my opinion.
     
  23. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2003

    "the toned down look of ESB" !

    well I can safely say that I certainly disagree with you there (I've seen ESB criticised for certain things but I've never heard ESB described like that ) , it has the most vibrant photography of the OT , just gorgeous , the color palette is vivid and operatic .
    I'm amazed you can watch the cloud city scenes , Dagobah , Hoth and call this "toned down "

    I asked if you were serious because ROJ is the one I've always thought had a tv movie look , Alan Hume isn't a particularly inspired DP , he's know for being quick , he's done a lot of tv shows and Carry-On movies , after ESB I think Lucas just wanted someone who was fast and wasn't spending $ on making it all look so gorgeous as Suchitzky had on ESB .



     
  24. gezvader28

    gezvader28 Chosen One star 6

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    Mar 22, 2003
    ESB has the strongest story because its the one that really gets to the heart of the characters , really explores what they want , what their conflicts are , conflict makes drama , and I'm talking about personal conflict here . The audience fell in love with the characters in SW but its ESB that really makes them vastly more interesting and 3 dimensional . Luke wants to be a hero but he finds that choosing the right path isn't so easy , Vader isn't just a henchman , he has a very personal agenda , Han and Leia's romance is so wonderfully realised , it packs a real emotional punch (unlike the dreary unconvincing romance in the PT) , Luke and Vader's relationship becomes mythological and deeply psychological .

    And the movie enhances all that , the imagery and mood and lighting , ESB has the most dreamlike qualities , its no mistake that characters are constantly finding themselves in caves and in Hades like smoke-filled arenas , and giants trying to swallow them .
    Lucas was just as big on the motifs of fairytales and their meanings as he was on historical references .

    Kershner worked hard on this dramatic aspect , re-working dialogue and spending long hours getting the look and feel right , because this is what matters in the 2nd act .
     
  25. Samnz

    Samnz Jedi Grand Master star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2012
    I agree. This attitude is annoying (although I prefer TESB to ROTJ).

    Instead of whining about the Prequels all the time, I'd much rather see those people analizing and discussing TESB's alleged brilliant writing and directing. Dialogue like "My hands are dirty - My hands are dirty, too" just doesn't seem like "great writing" to me.

    As annoying as the endless Prequel hate is, it made me also look at these movies closer and I found more things I love.
    With the OT, there's hardly any discussion about the movie-making. Like you said, whenever someone dares to criticize (espacially TESB) two or three people are going to make them like idiots with attitudes like "If you think ESB is bad, you have no idea and you are not worth my time."
    It's just a very weak argument that makes discussions about the OT (and especially ESB) narrow-minded taboo zones.

    I disagree here. I think the romance from AOTC really explores the needs of the characters. They discuss their past, their feelings, how their love would affect their future and how that endangers their professional lifes etc.
    Han and Leia, on the other hand, seemed primarily written for the audience to be entertained. Funny lines, bickering but no real exploration of the characters. It's okay because their love has hardly an effect on the story, but I vastly prefer Luke's journey in TESB.

    Now on-topic: I never really liked Rick McCallum. He always seemed a bit opportunistic to me. He did his job fine, though.
     
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