Speculation Why the NJO and Legacy Era are toast.

I didn't know these boards existed before that - then I googled Troy Denning and saw that he was a member here. You could say that I've been a fan ever since ANH went on general release to cinemas.

 

I don't understand.

 

I think an awful lot of people went into the Prequels with some pretty entrenched pre-conceptions.

Now it's a whole different ballgame when you start talking about the post-RoTJ environment. Let me put it to you as simply as I can... I watched the OT as a kid (Born 1986 so no... not in theaters but eh) and the first book I picked up about Star Wars was Heir of the Empire (And the Thrawn Trilogy remains the only Star Wars novels my parents ever read). One of the reasons that hooked me was that fundamentally the characters were the same... it was Luke, Leia, and Han with some new additions and the plot made perfect sense to me at the time. I added those characterizations of Han, Luke, and Leia into my mind as a definitive part of who they were. Luke as an earnest farmboy who really would go for Hot Chocolate if introduced to it.[/quote]

EMPIRE was the first movie I saw

I I did

Well, the vast majority of the movie going audience will be unfamiliar with any of the novels

Luke Skywalker, celibate Jedi monk is a fundamentally different character then the one I fell in love with as a child. The one we've seen on screen wants relationships, friendships, attachments... he dearly loves his sister and desperately hoped to save his father. Changing that, now, after thirty years and god only knows how many written words feels like a betrayal of that character and his nature. It wouldn't be Luke Skywalker if he was childless at 63 and it certainly wouldn't be easy on the audience to have a father like that for a character and not see the mother. This is especially true when I've heard that Lucas himself went over the rough drafts of the Thrawn Trilogy and made suggestions to Zahn on where to take the story, how Luke, Leia, and Han should be further developed and so forth. In a way Lucas himself put the stamp of approval on Mara Jade when he let Zahn have Luke hand his father's lightsaber to her.[/quote]

I don't follow what you are saying here. How is Luke a celibate monk?
Are you referring to the rumour that one of Lucas' early treatments followed the story that Luke never marries or has children?

If so, it does not mean that he is celibate - it could be that he just had to give so much to rebuilding the Order that he had to sacrifice that.

I know most EU doesn't get anywhere near that amount of attention from Lucas and that the vast majority have certainly never been read by him... but that one was, it was the flagship for the entire EU's kick off and he went over it to make sure it worked with what he thought he might do in the future. To change it when most have viewed it as good as G-level canon would be felt by many to be a horrendous betrayal.[/quote]

Are you just referring to the the Thrawn Trilogy here?

This is also why the Special Edition's revision of the Han - Greedo stand off are so off putting to people that saw the original version. Han Solo is a guy that will shoot you first under the table, a loveable rogue. When Greedo shoots first we're completely robbed of that impression and left with no character building from the encounter. It goes from 'badass' to 'eh whatever he tried to kill him'. Something like that is not a minor little quibble, it fundamentally changes the way a character is perceived. Luke Skywalker the earnest farmboy turned Jedi Master is not the same person as Luke Skywalker, celibate Jedi Monk.[/quote]

We'll never get anywhere discussing the whole "Han shot first"

As above, I don't think Lucas' intends for Luke to be celibate.

Now, I think Im understand your point of view - in fact I think we agree.

Absolutely. We are at loggerheads for completely the wrong reasons - and as you'll see below it is entirely my doing.

Okay, as I guessed above it is the "original EU" that you want kept in place.

Well we agree on the whole NJO and what followed can absolutely have no part in this new trilogy and any future spin offs.

The topic of the thread does take your point of view too and I think I see part of what has had us at odds - I have been using "EU" to refer to NJO and LOTF and you have thought I meant the entire needs to be obliterated. Not quite what I intended, but I should explain that I can see why it might need to, and should, be

So first off to clear the matter up - we both agree that the NJO and everything after needs to be scrubbed. Personally I liked the Vong (it was something new and fresh for Star Wars and maybe we can see a post-ST retcon to reintroduce them), but it has to - if only to bring Chewie back.

Next, you desire to have the new trilogy incorporate the events prior to that is actually perfectly reasonable and workable - especially with Lucas taking the interest you say in its crafting - dare I say I might like that myself as my personal favourite is The Truce at Bakura. I too much preferred this era of the EU - Mara was a pain and not really likable in my opinion and I felt the Remnant lasted way too long than was logical. If they retconned the 25 years down to 5 or 6, I'd think that ideal. The odd Imperial warlord popping up after that would be fine. I also think Anakin Jnr. and Ben need a name change to something more original - and all the kids should not be Force adept.

Now, if that is correct we get to the crux of the matter and we may be able to make ground - while I'd be delighted if that early EU was included, I am very open to it being "erased" too if it doesn't match the story Lucas envisions and what the Sequel Trilogy to tell.

And that is the thing that I am not understanding in regards to your point of view - that you are not looking at it this way? Is it that the Thrawn trilogy felt in every way for you like the Sequel Trilogy? That it isn't "a nerdy overly obsessive fanboy" thing for you at all?

Well, my friend, it is his universe (no matter who bought it) and it always will be.

And it is clear that Disney want him involved and Arndt is screenplaying his story.

 

Yes, because I try to view the situation from a profit-oriented company's viewpoint.

Yes, LFL and Disney will certainly want to sell books… but while they'll certainly hope to sell them to the hardcore EU fans, they'll want even more to sell them to the far more numerous new fans they no doubt dearly desire to create with the new movies. So, try to see the situation from the viewpoint of a young boy/girl or teen who's been dazzled by episode 7 and now wants to find out more about the Star Wars universe… and then getting told that you need to read 20+ long-published novels to get fully caught up. The temptation to just read online spoilers/summaries would be great.

But instead, imagine being told that it's a whole new, exciting Star Wars universe for the novels, one you can experience and discuss with everyone else (and especially new fans like yourself) as they are published because everyone is on the same footing, and no one part of the fanbase has deep and longtime prior knowledge of them. This situation is IMO much more enticing for a new fan than posting some innocent question about a long-published novel and then being put down by some EU crank to the tune of "I read this book 12 years ago and I guessed the answer to your question even more I finished it!" (not to say that you would be one such crank, but the situation might happen).

And let's face it – even if the EU is entirely rebooted, a lot of EU fans are going to swallow their disappointment and sadness, and then go out to buy the new novels anyway. IMO, Disney/LFL will judge that the advantages of putting everyone on the same footing regarding the novels and the post-Endor continuity well outweigh the risk of alienating a number of hardcore EU fans.

 

With rare exceptions, young boys/girls/teens don't really seem to be into actually reading books these days - computers, yes - Games Consoles, yes, Audiobooks on iPhones/iPods, yes. The evidence is in the spelling, vocabulary, punctuation and grammar. If they were reading proper books (or even e-books) they would tend to pick those things up.

What I want is to continue following the characters etc. that I know, enjoy and want to follow - not characters that someone else dictates should be stuffed down my throat - especially after the statement that there would be no more movies had induced me to pay over as much cash as I have.

If my experiences with a couple of other (factual historical) boards are any guide, that just doesn't happen. People have always been courteous - even published historians with a string of books and a few tons of superior knowledge to their name. One of them even said that a suggestion of mine about an identification could well have been fact.

Sorry, I wouldn't be one of them - and I would be pushing the fact that 'it's always easier second and subsequent times round' to anyone who'll listen.

 

I think post-ROTJ EU followers have dwindled down to a negligable demographic to LFL and Disney, as CW comics followers had before them. And Marvel followers before them.

 

I was agreeing with a previous persons question "what would it matter if the EU were wiped out" by saying that it probably wouldn't matter much overall. To me, however, it would matter a great deal, and I would not purchase any further merchandise.

A few have said "that's your opinion until the new books turn out to be great". I wouldn't care how good the new books are. To the comment "you got into the EU for the wrong reasons", anyone's reasons are their own, neither good nor bad, only true. I got into star wars because of the decipher card game, and the books at my local library. I embraced the media as a whole because of the cannon that was set up.

KOTR being a great game prolly created a few star wars fans. TCW is bringing in a new generation of kids. The film maker's shouldn't care about my opinion, because I'm in the minority, but I reserve the right to stop caring about a property when the thing I enjoyed about it gets broken.

 

You misunderstand me - and I'm trying to rephrase it but although I know in my head what I want to ak I'm not able to put it to words.

Anyway, you came into Star Wars via the merchandise as opposed to the movies?

I was going to say that I'd never heard it that way before but I realized that I did too - the Bespin Luke and Hoth Han as Christmas presents.

Where the TESB action figures released that early before the movie? Or am I mixed up.

 

So… what are you saying, exactly? That LFL should take into account EU fans and not scrap the post-Endor EU because they might risk alienating a large proportion of the people who still buy novels? I don't buy it. How do you account for Harry Potter, Twilight, The Hunger Games, and other book series that proved popular enough to warrant adapting them into (very profitable) movie series? Yes, those were all children/young adult series, but I don't expect to see anything in episode seven that would be a turn-off to those demographics (in fact, I very much expect LFL to make sure the new movies are as inclusive and attractive as possible to those demographics). And in the case of the hypothetical new SW novels, young people's interest in them will already have been created by the movies, so the novels will have a built-in advantage that original book series don't have.

At the time the statement was made, Lucas might well have been sincere about it. But everyone is entitled to changing their minds. Like you, I enjoyed my time with the EU and its characters, and I hope some part of it will survive in the movies, if only in the form of cherry-picked names/characters/items/ships/etc. But let's face it, people like you and I who enjoy the EU are a dwindling breed. Certainly most of this board, and the literature forum in particular, is nowhere near as active as when I began to lurk here during the year leading up to Revenge of the Sith. Hopefully, the new movies and all the new tie-ins will revitalize the fandom and return it to those glory days, and if the price for that is bidding farewell to the EU, then I will do so with sadness but also with hope in my heart.

Perhaps you're right and longtime EU fans displaying haughtiness toward new fans are baseless. However, I maintain that putting everyone on the same footing with a new post-Endor EU at least would prove more popular (and profitable) with new fans than adhering to books that were published some twenty years ago in some cases.

I really don't think they'll be rebooting the continuity a second time if they decide to do so with the EU for the sake of the new movies. For one thing, the new trilogy – and the announced movies that will follow that – will have set in stone once and for all the continuity for those years.

 

This same footing thing, it is easy, a jumping point to start reading. I read junior jedi knights, a beginning readers book in 2nd Grade, Young Jedi Knights in 4th and 5th grade. I loved Lowie, Jaina, Jacen, Anakin and Tahiri. Imagine my suprise that the second generation was starring with the big 3 in a series known as NJO. I have been hooked since. I was upset when Chewie died, when Anakin died, when Jacen fell, when Mara died, and when Jacen died. You don't need a reboot for new readers.

Lets hypothetically say they use Ben as a primary character within the ST, you could have a series about Ben with no baggage. He has moved past his mother dying and his cousin trying to get him to fall to the dark side. He is the Jedi Knight. Fans of EP 7 read it for him. He goes on adventures and missions with a cast of characters created through the ST or by the author of the EU series. Everything else remains untouched. But the series can be enjoyed by new readers wanting a Ben adventure and old Eu readers alike. Look at this Sword of the Jedi series coming up. It isnt a perfect example but Jaina will be highlighted. Granted the cast requires back ground and fleshing out but needless to say it is good to get a book not about the big 3

 

I think the NJO were part of the reason that the readership for EU stories dwindled so much. I know that once they started coming out I bought titles almost exclusively outside of that time frame. Survivor's Quest, and so forth. You notice there's been a surge in those being published now with Smugglers, Allegiance, and books like Mercy Kill (Which spans multiple time frames) which have done rather well commercially as far as I can tell.

 

Harry Potter was published in adult versions as well - and has very good use of language as well e.g. Diagon Alley. But the Harry Potter tales were books first, films second. My first contact with the series came from a Stephen Fry reading (perhaps an audiobook) on the radio one Boxing Day afternoon/evening.

My point was as written - a good many youngsters have not developed the habit (as older ones of us have) of curling up with a good book; ergo, they would probably not buy prose books in text - they'd be more likely to buy the audio version, if at all.

 

Oh man, we're never going to hear the end of this, are we? Why can't SW ever be uncontroversial?

 

NEVAR
THE GEEKS WILL NEVAR STAHP

 

Didn't you know... controversy increases sales. XP

 

Controversy is a sign that we care. An opinionated fanbase is an active fanbase.

 

The controversy has been brought in from outside; just like what happened when classic Trek was axed before the five year arc was completed.

What did the Trek fans do? Well, several tons of waste (shredded) paper were Fed-Exed to the offices of the people responsible for that decision.

What happened when Chewie was killed-off? The Author that had done the deed (under someone else's instruction) got death threats.

Similar (though not so extreme) discontent accompanied the death of Anakin Solo.

 

If I recall correctly the "problem" with the NJO, according to the feedback the publishers got, was that it was a new and fresh idea - not Chewbacca or anyone else dying - but that the villains were not the Empire or Sith.

This was upsetting to me - that Star Wars fans want the same old thing.

I'm glad the NJO will be gone, but I'd like the Vong brought back in a spin off animated series - toning them down a bit would be fine.

 

The NJO is upsetting for a lot more reasons.

 

The problem with NJO was that it took so many books to get to the end of it. I liked the idea of there being micro series within the larger picture, much like the Clone Wars novelizations with Medstar and Republic Commando. The vong were new and cool, however too in depth for many viewers. We don't know the storm trooper caste system but with the Vong we got shapers and shamed ones and warriors.

 

Yeah, I heard that

Shameful carry on. What is going on in people's heads that they think threatening people acceptable behaviour?

 

Should have sent complaints to the editors at Del Rey... they plotted out the whole Vong Invasion and originally wanted Luke to die in Vector Prime... yes Luke. Wow aren't we all glad Lucas axed that idea, but they wanted somebody to die and went with Chewie. I'd almost have rather they done Luke and guaranteed their arc would be rendered infinities or apocryphal come Episode VII.

 

Yes, and I thought EU-ers craved depth and detail.

 

What are your thoughts on it?

 

Nejaa wasn't mentioned in the PT at all. Read Jedi Trial. Might be decannonized soon since its the old Clone Wars stuff but whatever. So Anakin is the only one who can break the code? Nejaa is an imperfect being as well. How many people have left the Order? 20? More? Darkside users.