Discussion Why the odds are "3720 to 1" you'll actually like EP7

Exactly, that's why I am trying to keep my hopes down for VII but find myself thinking about it constantly. Now they can go in new directions as it were.

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. Its almost like I don't want them to have too much freedom story-wise and make a mess of it. I doubt we will ever see something on par with Empire again, but here's to hoping!

 

Speaking of embarrassment, the use of nudity in that show often kills my ability to take it seriously. It's a shame the producers equate epic fantasy for adults with a style that feels like it's aiming for American Pie demographics.

 

I don't think its much of an issue and its about as gratuitous as the violence. Though I admit some episodes seem to have been written by a hormone driven 13 year old boy.

 

Seriously, The Crippled God, I wish I could like this post twice. It is very accurate and puts into words what I am feeling.

On review, I acknowledge that this may have been slightly hyperbolic. I believe, based the 30 and 40 years olds I regularly interacted with in the U.S. Navy, that it is probably more accurate to say that, In the 90's, those that were in their 30's and 40's _respected_ "The Holy Trilogy," though anecdotaly, I am aware of many people of that generation that did genuinely love the trilogy, and participating in the decimation of the Thrawn books as they were passed around the ship. They also engaged as deeply in the 'Wars conversations around the mess decks as those of us who were in our 20's in the 90's.

 

Brilliant post!

 

My comment addressed yours quite well, thank you. Bringing ticket sales into an argument pretty much snuffs the legitimacy of your argument. Lots of horrible movies made tons of money.

 

While I wouldn't say ROTJ is especially final, it is certainly very decisive. The Battle of Endor was a turning point moment, the Emperor and Vader died, the Death Star was destroyed, and the Rebellion triumph. The theoretical arc of history that would follow the film was very clear to anyone taking a serious look at it. The EU, regardless of anyone's opinion on the matter, followed that arc, portraying an Empire grasping with increasing desperation to try and turn the Rebellion back from the march of triumph, but they never had any real chance to chain things together.

The reality is that story is not outwardly all that interesting, because's it's rather pre-determined. Anyone who's spent a bit of time playing RTS games knows the feeling - there's a point where you have all the resources, a technology advantage, and a massive fleet, and there's no way the enemy can recover, but you might have a great deal of fighting left to go to smash all the standing stock the opponent possesses. You might even take big losses if you aren't paying attention, but you aren't really in any danger any more.

It the movies try to tell that story, if they go into the gradual downfall of the Empire, they will fail. The EU resorted to all kinds of desperate measures (with varying degrees of success) to make the Empire remain a viable threat for as long as possible, but there's really no way to fully live up to expectations. Besides, merchandising demands that they can't reuse the pre-existing designs in a significant way. Expect big ships with a roughly triangular shape and the word s-foils to be spoken, but nothing more than that.

That leaves us in uncharted territory. The fans knew what the PT was going to be about, broadly. Anakin was going to become a Jedi and then turn into Darth Vader. Palpatine was going to rise to become Emperor, Obi-Wan and Yoda would be involved, and some big conflict called the 'Clone Wars' was going to happen. We really have nothing, aside from some very, very extremely tenuous speculative links that suggest the whole 'Mortis' thing might somehow be meaningful. Indeed, the very name 'Sequel Trilogy' is something of a misnomer, it's much closer to 'New Trilogy.'

 

Jar Jar Binks was not suppose to be likeable. His main purpose was to motion for emergency powers for Sidious in Attack of the Clones. I usually go into a film with crazy expectations. I wanted Anakin to be fighting trillions of sith lords at the same time. My imagination is ridiculous. So, expect the best while accepting the worse.

 

Rule of Two Trillion? Now you're talking!

 

Uh, that was not his "main purpose", my friend. Sorry.

 

I think the unmet expectations of the PT have less to do with what people thought would happen, and more to do with how they define a good movie... or more specifically, how they define a good Star Wars movie. For many, TESB is the pinnacle of what Star Wars can and should be. It's also the least Lucas-like of all the movies. For better or worse, the prequels are George Lucas movies through and through, with an inspired focus on the cinematic elements that he's interested in, and a complete disregard for the ones that he isn't. Personally, I'm a Lucas fan, from his early short films all the way through Red Tails. I can easily forgive the elements that don't work in his films for the (IMO) unrivaled brilliance of the ones that do, but I can also totally understand why some people are unable to take that leap. Anyway, I'm very optimistic about the new trilogy (as my avatar would suggest, although I admit my first reaction was far more cynical), and there is still a fair chance I'll be let down by it, but since they're working from a GL story I'll most likely eat it up as long as they don't hire incompetent directors or radically depart from the style and story of the first six movies.

 

You're still missing my point.





"Excuse me, Chancellor"
/LM

 

Ticket sales are entirely relevant when the subject of discussion is not the quality of the movies, but how well-liked they are.

 

Mystery Roach, I generally like your posts, and you often make great points, but in the specific case of Star Wars I disagree with your opinion for the following reasons:

1. More than one person, including me, has indicated that they saw these movies a number of times in an attempt to try to find a way to like them. In my case this includes the 3D TPM because I have a child who likes flashy lights whizzing around in 3D.
2. More than 1 person, including me, has indicated that they bought the Blu-rays because even though the SE OT's are flawed, they are still the OT on Blu-ray. Personally, I've only cracked open TPM for bad movie night and to play the EP I drinking game ( http://www.angelfire.com/md/clui/drinking2.html ). AOTC and ROTS will probably remain unopened until my child is old enough to handle depictions of children being murdered and Dexter Jettster's creepy child molester mustache.
3. No matter what, these are Star Wars movies. Sitting around the night before the movie in a camping area by theater watching the entire saga from a projector on a duct taped white sheet on the side of the building

I realize that this is anecdotal, but based on my experiences with other real life people I suspect that I'm probably not literally the only person that suspects that the box office and subsequent ancillary profits at LFL are probably in part due, not to the PT's quality or popularity, but due to their connection to the greater universe we fans love called Star Wars.

With all due respect, Mystery Roach, in the case of LFL profits are all that needs to matter and there's nothing wrong with that, but for an argument about the popularity of the PT, I don't believe you are able to say, without resorting to hyperbole, that there is definitively a direct correlation between box office and how well-liked these movies are.

 

You do make some fair points, however one must remember that the older generation Star Wars fans are not the most important demographic for any new movies, and I seriously doubt we account for the bulk of sales. One can only truly judge popular perception of the PT by the interest of children and those who were children when they first saw them... and despite having a much larger field of competition vying for that interest, Star Wars has continued to thrive among the younger generations over the past 13 years.

 

I'd venture to say that the probability that I will like Episode VII is actually pretty high. And I think that holds true for the audience in general.

Whether I will love it and hold it in high esteem is a different story.

I'm very attached to Lucas' personal style in Star Wars. I think that he, despite his weaknesses in some areas, is a true master of the visual medium -- which is film's greatest strength, in my opinion, over books (which have the advantage of being far more detailed and allow you to read characters' thoughts), video games (interactivity), and other forms of media.

Whatever else I hope for in the new films, my greatest desire is that they should capture the visual splendor of the first six. That, more than anything, would integrate them into the Saga for me.

 

(Continued from my last post...) And anyway my original point was only that Grand_Moff_Jawa was erroneous in twisting Lars_Muul's assertion that most people loved the PT as evidenced by how financially successful they were into a ticket sales = quality argument, which is not the same thing at all.

 

The reasons the odds are that high for many people are:

1) Once bitten, twice shy. Anyone under 30 may have some (understandable) difficulty comprehending the degree to which Episode 1 really was the most-anticipated movie of all time. I remember back in the 80s, when the rumor was that Lucas would take five years off between Jedi and Episode 1. He ended up taking thirteen years. All that time, we waited, and anticipated, and imagined...

And then it finally got here. And it blew. And some people just can't trust like that again.

2) Memories of earlier eras, when Disney was far less reliable as far as quality goes.

3) Genre fans - not all of them, but a lot - tend to have two settings: absolute, slavish, worshipful love, or angry, dismissive, intolerant hate. Everything is either the "Best. X. Ever." or the "Worst. X. Ever." Now that Star Wars movies are "officially" a "Worst. X. Ever.", it's impossible for some people to even begin to admit the possibility that new Star Wars could actually be good. This is why I still have trouble getting people to watch Clone Wars.

In other words, they need to let go of their hate.

As for ticket sale, it's a truism that in a film series, tickets for the next one are based on the last one. This is understandable - nobody knows what a film will really be like until they actually see it. So people base their judgments about how much they want to see the next one mostly on how much they liked the last one. Thus, VII is kind of behind the 8-ball, because people have some pretty sour memories of the prequels.

 

I think this is an important clue in the mystery of why the PT wasn't universally embraced. It doesn't really have a demographic to cater to. It tried to please old school fans, it tried to please kids and ended up somewhere in the middle with a lot of scenes that didn't catch either demographic. So the kids may have liked Jar Jar Binks (though I am confident a character like R2-D2 in Star Wars was much more popular than JJ will ever be), and the old school fans may have liked to get to see how Palpatine rose to power, but the two angles kind of didn't work that well together. Also, I believe they underestimated children's sense of a good story, thinking that flashing lights and huge effects alone are enough to satisfy. I was six or seven when I became a Star Wars fan, my son is almost seven and enjoys the old movies just as much if not more than the newer films (his favorite scenes are the pod race and the whole Death Star rescue operation in the original).

What if Lucas decided to analyze the original trilogy, jot down everything alluding to the backstory, and deciding on one demographic? Either make it very friendly to children (which the prequels are only in spurts) or go for the people that helped him build his empire, most of them who would have taken their children to the cinema anyway.

That's a good point, especially on the Internet there doesn't seem to be much of a middle ground. It's either the awesome or not. That being said, I honestly think Attack of the Clones is among the worst movies of all time regardless of genre - and still I look forward to Episode VII because it is kind of a blank slate and the chances it will be good are just as high as the other way around. Incidentally I begun a Clone Wars marathon with my son yesterday (we watched the three first episodes of season 1). We both kind of drifted off because there was, as my son said it, "too much going on in space", almost overkill, but at the same time pretty cool to get a lot of space action. It's a good thing these episodes are short, though. And, they are not that bad. Certainly more interesting camera work, animation techniques, but the stories are wafer-thin (well in the first three episodes anyway). But enjoyable, definitely.

 

Totally agree here. People, especially my age (currently in my late 30s), feel the OT can do no wrong. I'm in the minority of folks in this age group that love both. To me they are a COMPLETE story and build off one another. I can play an advocate for either side, but IMO people just need to accept it as one story. When the Blu-Ray was released, my nieces and nephews (who are in their late teens) and I did a marathin and watched all of them in a row. Also one of my nieces friends who had NEVER seen a full SW movie watched them with us. She liked them all and saw it as one complete story. I don't know why people take each film and systematically dissect why they are bad. Yet wont ever dissect the OT. Enjoy them as one collective saga, it works better that way.

Amen brother! It's so rare to see another fan that has the same thoughts about the Saga.I had the same experience. Most of everything I "thought" the PT was going to be about didn't happen, but was usually presently surprised about what I saw. AOTC is one of the films I watch most (I like them all but I find myself watching this the most). Actaully at time of release I saw AOTC 22 times in the first week it was released. I took a week off work and averaged seeing it 4 times a day..

This one of my biggest worries with the ST (&EP7). I don't want a writer or director to try and make some academy award wining film with overly complex character depths and emotional story. You are right: SW was a space opera. It's more about the myth and the legend. Sure we love the characters, but the myth and legend of Star Wars is greater than any one character. I don't care if that character is Han, Vader, Luke or Jar-Jar. Stick to the formula, don't change it.

Honestly I think the "true fans" are those that accept the OT & PT & TCW. These all came from Lucasfilm. Essentially from the "creator". I know, this is "just my opinion", but I still can't understand how people can have such a difference of opinion from the PT to the OT. Again only my opinion, I just feel people are missing out by having such a strong negative opinion of the PT. I won't even get started on the ESB lovers. Those are the folks that think ESB is the ONLY great SW film.

I guess I'm being a hypocrite though, because I accepted and grew to love the entire saga, but I'm not willing just to accept Disney will do the same. Like I said before, everything before EP7 came from Lucasfilm, I think it's kinda naive that Disney will churn out a pop-culture classic. I will give it a chance of course, but they will definitely have to go above and beyond to gain this fans support. A good start is the idea of bringing back the old cast. Lets hope for some more good moves.

 

Episode VII is coming from Lucasfilm as well... Disney just happens to be their parent company now. This ubiquitous notion that Disney is making these films is totally misguided. In a way it's unfortunate that Lucas handed over the reins to Kathleen Kennedy right before selling the company because it seems to have left a great many people with the impression that Disney is handling the franchise themselves now, but that just simply isn't true.

 

Disney execs will be quite involved with the big decisions - budgets, marketing, directors, writers, casting and shooting locations.

Apart from that, they won't get that involved.

 

Acceptance is one thing, actually liking everything another. And where do you draw the line? Can you be a true fan if you liked all this except Season 4 episode 2 of The Clone Wars? Does me being a fan since 1982 or thereabouts count as not a true fan because I find the PT lacking? Is it that black and white, or do we have shades of grey? It is not impossible to hold the utmost love and reverence for The Empire Strikes Back and at the same time be disgusted with Attack of the Clones.
I am not sure what you mean by "accepting", however. I accept the fact that George Lucas directed and released The Phantom Menace. I saw it with my own eyes, and have seen video recordings of people standing in line, of people waving lightsabers about in the cinemas as the 20th century Fox fanfare opened the show. The evidence for the existence of the film is overwhelming, and so I accept it. As a person regarding the story of the original trilogy - particularly episodes IV and V - as a particularly worthwhile experience (why else would I have been watching these films over and over and over again since their release) I have a very hard time reconciling the two trilogies (and I still don't) and cannot for the life of me understand how someone can argue that the prequels are just as good as the originals, but I do accept they are what they are. And I don't feel that I am less "true" for it.

 

I find that unconvincing. Consider the parallel to Star Wars's eternal fandom rival, Star Trek.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture had Gene Roddenberry's fingerprints all over it. And it is nearly universally - and quite rightly - regarded as a borefest and one of the weakest Star Trek movies.

For the next Star Trek film, Nick Meyer was brought in, and intentionally set out to do a film that was not at all "Roddenberrylike". Word has it that Gene hated it, but that neither Meyer nor the studio cared. The result was Wrath of Khan, which is nearly universally - and quite rightly - regarded as a sci-fi masterpiece: easily the best Star Trek film ever, and one that is beloved by Trek fans and non-fans alike.

The lesson: Just because "the creator" makes it does not mean it'll be any good, and just because it goes against "the creator's" vision, does not mean it will be bad.

Anyhow, at this point, I frankly don't care what Lucas wants. If he wanted to keep creative control, he shouldn't have sold his franchise. But he did, and that means he's not the last word on what's what in the Star Wars universe anymore. Beyond that, he bungled the prequels badly - worse than Roddenberry bungled Star Trek: The Motion Picture - and I'm more than ready for an equivalent to Nick Meyer to show up and send things in a new direction.