Full Series Official "The Clone Wars" Series Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

But the thing is, in what context? Was destined for the role, or was it something he proved from his own actions, which wasn't how the prophecy was interpreted?

 

I have heard some crazy things in my time here, but THIS one never gets old.

Sooo far from the fact truth.

 

Luke only agreed to go after he found his Aunt and Uncle dead

 

He already had made up his mind before that, his burning family just allowed him to leave since there was nothing left on Tatooine for him.

 

All i remember about what Luke said is that he couldn't go and had to help his Uncle or something like that but then changed his mind when he found them dead

 

On why Gallia was with Obi-wan and not the great sith Slayer Anakin (who even with a prophacy surrounding him does not have the track record Obi-wan does since it was him that should have killed Maul in TPM). I figure that Maul even at the start of Revival was a personal mission for Obi-wan. That's something that Anakin despite is super protective nature would understand, possibly without words. Its also possible Anakin was originally tracking Maul with Obi-wan something came up that required Anakin and Gallia just had the misfortune of being a temp stand in for him.

 

That was the only reason he couldn't ago - he had promised his Aunt and Uncle. Them dead, he free to go and help Obi-Wan stop the Empire.

 

Well, Obi-Wan IS human and maybe, just maybe, less prideful and just intent on following through his initial kill, without specific thought as to the prophecy. People don't always do the logical things, even usually logical people. It can be a weakness of thought without being a negative attribute.

Or maybe they think Maul is unhinged and no longer a Sith, just a very bad Zabrak. At this time, they know Dooku is #2 Sith and Maul cannot be #1.

 

The point of Star Wars is that destiny can bring you to a specific place, but you still have to make the choice, for good or for evil.

Anakin chose poorly in ROTS - he could have brought balance then. He chose correctly in ROTJ.


Anyway, I was watching Witches of the Mist whilst on the treadmill last night, and I forgot Mother Talzin says Savage and Maul are going to fulfill their destiny. Wondering if the witches have their own prophecy.

 

I guess I just see it more like God making it clear that he has a plan for someone (Qui-Gon voices the opinion that Anakin was conceived by the midichlorians and that the will of the Force led him to Anakin). This supernatural energy field that is credited with a will creates Anakin and gives him to a virgin mother/mother that did not have sex approximately 9 months earlier. You have this messiah Jesus Jedi willed into existence by the Force/God that is allegedly destined to destroy the Sith, and Obi-Wan pairs up with Adi instead because something came up and Anakin was busy? Just seems like Peter going to the cross instead of Jesus and telling Jesus not to worry that the sacrifice to remove sin will be carried out by Peter to make up for his three denials.

It's one thing if you don't believe it, like Mace and perhaps Yoda, because then you're not going to buy into the idea that there's anything particularly special about Anakin other than a high midichlorian count and won't let a suspicious prophecy dictate your actions. But Obi-Wan seems to believe this divine birth/destiny put before Anakin by the Force that the Jedi spend their life studying/obeying the will of, and yet it's more important that Obi-Wan get his balls back (which incidentally he's forbidden to use).

Speaking more generally and not in reference to the above quote:

As for whether Maul is or is not a Sith I think isn't entirely relevant. While we have only isolated audio clips to go by, it seems like Maul considers himself still to be one, given how he identifies Dooku as a "pretender" and the idea that he sees himself and his brother as the "true lords of the Sith." Even if he doesn't, he's still an evil dark sider with the same ability that he had when he was a Sith and I wouldn't think that a simple name change from Sith to non-Sith would affect whatever impact he contributed to the imbalance of the Force.

Otherwise, if Palpatine hypothetically decreed that the Sith were no longer to be called Sith, but undergo a name change and henceforth be known as the Dark Side League of Awesomeness, would that render the prophecy irrelevant and there are no longer "Sith" to destroy? I don't think so much emphasis can be placed solely on the name "Sith." If Palpatine and Dooku were killed and Maul and Savage were ignored because they aren't "Sith," that doesn't mean that they won't keep the Sith going, since Maul knows their teachings and is no less qualified to lead a Sith Order now than he was had Palpatine died of a sudden heart attack while Maul was still his apprentice. Maul would have taken a new apprentice and would have kept the Sith going. He's no less eligible now, regardless of the Rule of Two.

 

Sure, logically I buy your last paragraph. But humans are not always logical and don't always do what "we" think they should have. Even Jedi.

 

Maul and Savage are pretty much deadly rogues criminals tearing up the galaxy at this point. They probably aren't seen as any prophacy. Stopping them before they kill more people and do more damage to innocent folks like the Snaggletooth guy is taking priority to just sending Anakin to kick sith ass because thats was a prophacy they understand about as well as kids get Santa says. If your going to stop Maul it makes more sense to send Obi-wan who has defeated him in the past and perhaps another powerful Jedi with good tracking skills. Adi Gallia was a friend of Obi's right? I'm sure she offered an asset that was needed to try and capture the two deadly fugitives. I'm sure Anakin based on power alone suited the mission. If he was unavailable Obi-wan picked a worthy stand in. He also has a rather personal struggle against Maul at this point and its only gotten more personal since Gallia's death.

Its the circle of life man!

Comparing Anakin's story to the new testiment is a pretty interesting idea since he was born from the force (?). I've thought about that before. However as VS noted people don't always do what you'd think. I've never been one to believe that faith and god just hands you stuff whether your his son, some homeless guy begging for change, or the prince of Xing. You gotta move forward and work to reach your destiny along a twisty, winding, smokey path you can only see maybe 4 steps ahead of you. Anakin is going to get there anyways.

 

But if Anakin is in the middle of a battle or lies injured in the infirmary etc. it would be utterly ridiculous for Obi-Wan to sit around twiddling his thumbs for hours, days, weeks, possible months until Anakin was ready to go. History had shown that you do not need to be the Chosen One to destroy the Sith and considering the vagueness of the prophesy even if Obi-Wan believed Anakin would ultimately bring balance to the Force he may not have interpreted it as the Chosen One single-handedly taking out all the Sith (and would-be Sith) or the Chosen One being the only person capable of killing a Sith – but even if he did… well, the police can’t always afford to wait for Superman if a supervillian attacks either, they will do what they can to try and stop him/her.

If there had not been a massive scale war going on Anakin might have been more involved in chasing down the Sith, but since the Jedi were stretched quite thin it just wasn’t practicable for him to be available every time the Sith briefly emerged from hiding. The Jedi had to react quickly when information on the whereabouts of the Sith was discovered so they sent the best they got available at the time.

Well we can agree about the prophesy – if I had it my way the PT would be absolutely free of any “Chosen One prophesy” and virgin births.

Yes Anakin’s presence was completely unnecessary in that scene, but why should they discuss bringing Anakin the next time when the official conclusion of the meeting was: Maul and Opress are dead/not a threat, so we need to focus on winning the war..?

 

I'm not saying that Anakin is going to show up and pwn Sith with Thor's hammer. But if Obi-Wan believes that Anakin is some divinely ordained individual given to the Jedi to be trained to defeat the Sith and restore balance to some metaphysical energy that guides the universe, that's a huge thing. Yet the prophecy is pretty much never touched upon, nor does it seems to guide anyone's (notably Obi-Wan's) actions. Even if it was just a matter of Anakin not having faith in himself and avoiding putting any effort in, that would be one thing. But Obi-Wan as his mentor should be more of a Qui-Gon figure urging Anakin to take up that role, even if the faithless Council don't believe it. Had Obi-Wan been killed and Qui-Gon been alive to take on Anakin's training and Maul re-entered the picture, I would think Qui-Gon would be the one to put faith in Anakin, not go on a personal vendetta of vengeance.

Qui-Gon was the one that was going off on the concept of a Chosen One and Anakin having a miraculous birth. Obi-Wan pretty much just is disinterested in Anakin in TPM, is a fairly critical mentor in AOTC and really doesn't touch upon the idea of the prophecy, but then in ROTS voices the belief that Anakin is the Chosen One. I take that to mean that something happened in the Clone Wars (whether it be Mortis or something else) that allows him to see in Anakin what Qui-Gon did. As it stands right now, not a whole lot seems to have changed in that regard since AOTC, which may mean that whatever event that puts faith in Obi-Wan hasn't happened yet.

I would think that dealing with Maul would be a potential opportunity if Obi-Wan keeps digging his own grave of emotional despair in trying to deal with Maul personally, only to eventually accept that it's not his destiny and have faith in Anakin. If Obi-Wan just keeps this going as a personal vendetta and ends up "re-claiming his kill" then he's back to square one. In one instance I see character growth, in the other I see un-Jedi like behavior with consistently negative reinforcement and yet Obi-Wan doesn't learn his lesson and bludgeons his way through it until he wins.

Anakin was apparently available for the debrief.

I never said Anakin needed to single handedly take on all the Sith, hence I mentioned bring Anakin along, not send him in alone. He can't fulfill his destiny if he's not even there, which is why I see any argument about him having to work for his destiny as having no bearing, since he's never put in a position to do anything. Sidious is the only one ironically putting Anakin in a position to destroy the Sith.

It's convenient that Obi-Wan always makes the time for his personal vendetta. If Maul resurfaces and Anakin goes after him because Obi-Wan is busy, I'm not sure that would go over as well.

Obi-Wan didn't seem to buy too heavily into that conclusion.

 

Spoiler

FARK2005 has an excellent point about the scene at the end of Revival. Maul may never have been seen as a big deal in the first place.

I don't think Obi-wan sees Maul as being relative to anything to do with Anakin. Really other than in Mortis TCW just hasn't hit on anything to do with the chosen one.

We are talking about Maul. The guy who killed Obi's great mentor Qui-Gon. When Maul popped back up the the galaxy it was probably as much under the radar IU as it was OOU. The Jedi Council certainly seems to see Maul as little more than a bird on the radar. He's just a criminal now, not a great and powerful scary sith far as most of the Galaxy is concerned. Anakin is a powerful Jedi and charismatic leader isn't he? His skills are probably better used either. Also we have to take Anakin's demeanor into account since again Maul killed Qui-Gon and Anakin might just lose it trying to fight him which would be more of a detriment. This really is Obi-wan's fight to protect everybody.

Obi-wan is going to get character growth inthe Maul arc in way or another. Again, he is getting ready to face the guy who killed his master, again. After this guy who massacred a village to get to him, has been killing alot of people, and then is going to set Mandalore on fire. How exactly to you think that's going to make Obi-wan feel? Did see the clip with Obi-wan looking into the fire with those sad blue eyes of his? Obi-wan is going to be in unimaginable pain blaming himself for not finished the job on Naboo. Thats why its personal for him.

 

I also forgot about that. Good point...

 

Spoiler

I don't really see that as growth. He did everything he could in TPM and bisected Maul. He had no reason to suspect that Maul would return. It's not like he spared the villain only for that mercy to come back and bite him. Obi-Wan had no reason to think that a Sith Lord cut at the waist and sent down a huge pit was going to survive and return 10 years later. When Maul does return, Obi-Wan is pretty adamant about dealing with it personally, and that seems to be what's digging this emotional pit of despair in Obi-Wan. What if they had just listened to Mace who proposed sending Obi-Wan with backup because Maul was just too important? It could have been done with. Maul talks about how Obi-Wan's emotions have imbalanced him. So he's probably not the best candidate to send to Mandalore, he has too much emotionally invested there (with Satine) and he's going to likely suffer more. They could have sent someone else, or Obi-Wan could have recognized that he was emotionally compromised and that someone else should go. I don't see the payoff if the story is just Obi-Wan bludgeoning through emotional turmoil after emotional turmoil due to foolishly playing into Maul's hands. I would see character growth if he's able to let go of that turmoil, but not if he doesn't learn his lesson and keeps running off to face Maul over and over and over until he eventually wins.

I don't see growth or any kind of lesson learned there other than pain sucks and Obi-Wan keeps walking into it.

 

Force, I hope they do justice to characterization at that point - and not just Obi-Wan's characterization but those close to him as well. To have him sad then essentially blow it off in the excitement of pursuit would be a crime. I'm not talking long scenes of "oh, my" wiping eyes, in case anyone thinks so, just a general and palpable sense of Obi-Wan's world having been rocked while he struggles to hold onto his Jedi serenity - a nice bit of the human peeking out through the Jedi mantle of duty and detachment.

 

"A lesson without pain is meaningless, for you cannot gain something without sacrificing something else in return, but once you have overcome it and made it your own...you will gain an irreplaceable, fullmetal heart." I get to used this again. ^_^

Yoda felt it was the will for the force Obi-wan face Maul again alone. Isn't this part of destiny like you were saying before? Its not all about believing in Anakin, I don't think.

Yeah its a cliche sorta overcoming adversity story but I eat those up. This Maul arc is going to be one of the first real stories with a villain who is genuinely threatening and must be overcome by the hero at extraordinary cost. You certainly do get development for characters this way. This is probably going to go a long way to created a shadow of the man Obi-wan is in ANH.

Spoiler

I don't think the Council has any idea Obi-wan is invested in an old friend on Mandalore. They are sending Obi-wan undercover again becaus he is apparently good at it and because Obi-wan is familiar with Mandalore. There is no way in hell Ahsoka will get sent again after what happened the last tme she was there and started a war on the Palace lawn. I wouldn't be surprised if Obi-wan is requested and comes to the call.

I kinda don't think Obi-wan is going to win this one if Sids is any indication.

 

Eh, I don't think Maul's return has changed Obi-Wan. Obviously he can't change much as a character because of RotS. His relationship with Satine is probably the most interesting thing that's featured him in TCW.

 

Or perhaps its made him "reckless"?

 

Emo kids from South Park: "Its like Obama all over again."

 

I actually think this was one of those "oh my God, Yoda you're an idiot" moments for me. He didn't think Obi-Wan was going to face Maul alone and sensed that Asajj was going to help Obi-Wan. I believe Filoni addressed this in an interview somewhere that Yoda knew that if they sent Obi-Wan with reinforcements that Asajj would not get involved. Which IMO just seems reckless that they withheld Republic support dedicated to the capture of Maul in favor of coaxing Asajj to help, who probably has no interest in taking Maul alive.

The character has to learn a lesson. For instance in the 2009 Star Trek film, Spock's planet is destroyed and his mother (a human) is killed by Nero. Spock is 1/2 Vulcan but chose to follow the Vulcan way of life, he is somewhat Jedi like it that he is supposed to remain unattached emotionally and only follow what is logical, but after his mother's death he is clearly struggling with that and as Captain of the Enterprise he wants to rendezvous with the fleet to counterattack Nero, but Kirk sees this as futile and a course of action that would only get everyone killed. Kirk then provokes Spock to attack him by criticizing Spock for never having loved his mother due to the Vulcan philosophy. After his outburst in which he attacks Kirk, Spock then realizes that he is emotionally unsuited to be Captain and steps down allowing Kirk to step in. He then goes and has a talk with his father in which his father (a Vulcan) admits that he married Spock's mother because he loved her, whereas at the beginning of the film he states that he married her because he was ambassador to Earth and taking a human wife was "logical." Spock then seems to calm down after having this conversation in which he realizes that his father actually shares his emotional burden and Spock goes on to help Kirk defeat Nero, even though Kirk remains Captain.

Spoiler

We have Obi-Wan fighting to finish what was started back in TPM and he loses. He then tries again with Adi Gallia, and she dies. He then is going to try again seemingly with the help of Bo-Katan on Mandalore. Given Sidious stepping in, that doesn't bode well for Obi-Wan's efforts to defend Mandalore, and with Pre Vizsla and Maul taking over, that's going to put them in conflict with Satine and the loyalists, which means that Satine may potentially die if Obi-Wan fails.

In this effort to fix a problem, Obi-Wan is only getting more people killed and causing more pain for himself. I would see character growth if, like Spock, he's able to take a step back and realize that he's been emotionally compromised and this whole vendetta is very un-Jedi like. Or if he begins to relate with Anakin and Anakin becomes Obi-Wan's emotional crutch like Spock's father in that Anakin can relate to Obi-Wan, particularly if Satine dies and Obi-Wan's feelings with her are put out in the open. At no point am I saying that Obi-Wan needs to withdraw from the conflict with Maul completely in favor of Anakin, but Anakin can be there as the emotional support to calm Obi-Wan down and a partner that shows Obi-Wan that this burden isn't his to carry alone. If Obi-Wan can defeat Maul without overcoming the emotional turmoil that Maul has put him in, that just seems very un-Star Wars (and particularly very un-Jedi like).

As to the prospect of Maul being killed by Sidious. God I hope not. That's just a cop out that absolves the writers of dealing with Obi-Wan's emotional struggle to overcome his adversary if Sidious just takes care of it for him. I'm of course in favor of the idea that Maul gets captured (as I said in the episode idea thread) after perhaps Obi-Wan arrives on scene with Mandalorian reinforcements and forces Sidious to withdraw.

Unless Obi-Wan's anger at Maul causes him to entertain the notion of cooperating with Dooku to take him out.

Not really

 

Would it break continuity with the movies if Sidious and Obi-Wan duel in TCW?

 

I would think so, yes.