Full Series Theatrical Film - "The Clone Wars" - Discussion

The battle droids and clones are equally nameless and random in the big battles of both films, so I don't see what the distinction is there or how that affects the brutality of the violence. I'm of the mind that structuring the PT such that the Clone Wars start at the very end of the second film was a really bad idea, and I think it would have been better to start a film with a crawl that explains the war so the movie can start with it from the beginning. There's no crawl, but TCW film starts with the war so I think that's a major advantage it has over Ep. II, and there's really no need for a crawl explaining the war since Ep. II does that (not fully IMO, but there is an entire film dedicated to it so that's something, which incidentally is one of my big problems with it...they spend an entire film explaining how the Clone Wars start without really fully explaining it).

Like how Ep. IV starts with "there's a galactic civil war, now watch this awesome space battle!" without fully explaining the politics or mechanics of the war (again back to the point of how TCW film is much more like Ep. IV than Ep. II is). Ep. IV also begins with explosions and nameless characters dying.

One other thing I forgot to mention is how the CGI of the PT is kind of jarring and can take me out of the action at times. It particularly bothers me that GL made the clones all CGI when they easily could have been extras in suits. The fact that TCW has everything computer-animated so I don't have to suddenly reorient my visual palate every time they go between Jedi and clones or show both together is a big plus for me. It's easier to buy into what's going on and stay into it.

 

You're missing the point. When I said that one had a story and the other didn't, I meant that it actually made sense and wasn't random filler. Sure both films have random nameless characters, but the actual named characters were brought there for a reason in AOTC. In TCW, we are instantly dragged into a random battle and having no clue what the hell is going on. Not looking at the TCW tie ins that explain the reason behind the battle, you are easily confused.

And no ANH's opening scene was elaborated and explained in the film itself. Not to mention the crawl explains it too... It was actually a critical component of the overall story (Leia and the DS plans).

"There's no crawl, but TCW film starts with the war so I think that's a major advantage it has over Ep. II"


I don't even...

 

The named characters in TCW film are also there for a reason. It'd be hard to introduce Anakin's Padawan without Anakin being there, and Obi-Wan is with Anakin as a sign of their partnership just like in the beginning of Ep. III. I like the Anakin/Obi-Wan character dynamics in TCW film much better than in Ep. II. The characters are not random. I grant you it's a little more abrupt of a beginning than Ep. IV due to lack of a crawl and therefore may be a little more confusing to people watching it without being familiar with the other Star Wars films as you're hypothesizing, but it's a consistent plot thread throughout the first 1/4 of the film that they need a victory on Christophsis so they can leave to save Jabba's son and assure access to his hyperspace lanes. It's not a random battle with no plot connections.


TCW film starts with the war as I think Ep. II could have and should have, and I value that over whether or not there's a crawl. Not sure how to word that more understandably for you, I think it's a fairly simple concept to grasp.

 

You are basing your critique on what you wanted to see in the film rather than critiquing what the film actually showed (same goes with AOTC). They could've easily introduced her elsewhere, or stayed with the planet, only if it actually made sense. Basically I didn't see the battle as Ahsoka setup. Literally the entire Christophsis was "shove it in your face" storytelling. Pretty god awful writing as it was random event after random event with little to no explanation. We start with massive explosions with no meaning behind the battle to "I get a new Padawan!!1." And then Ahsoka says she's Anakin's new Padawan. I'm sure by then everyone's head hurts due to the amount of confusing crap going on. The events on that planet go beyond feeling disconnected and incoherent. Battles should have meanings being them, not show a battle for the sake of showing a battle. And no, named characters, no matter who they are, can't fix stupid storytelling.

Saying you want to see AOTC begin with a war is just beyond ridiculous. There's no setup.

"but it's a consistent plot thread throughout the first 1/4 of the film that they need a victory on Christophsis so they can leave to save Jabba's son and assure access to his hyperspace lanes"

You honestly think that the film needs Christophsis to show that? They could get rid of that and go straight to the plot of Jabba's son. And again, they could push Ahsoka's introduction elsewhere if they wanted to.

 

In Ep. II they take an entire film to introduce the Clone Wars without ever giving definitive reasons for why the Clone Wars are taking place, neither with regard to the planetary systems seceding from the Republic nor the creation of the clone army. To me that's more offensively bad storytelling than any of the oversights in TCW film. I think TCW film is pretty bad, I just think Ep. II is worse. If they weren't going to explain it fully anyway, they easily could have did it lip-service in the crawl to start the film out with the war, just like in Ep. IV.

I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but the first 1/4 was originally made a prequel episode to take place in the series but they later plopped it onto the beginning of the film instead. It is a bit awkward, but I think the rest of the film is actually worse so I think it's better off as-is.

 

I would put the ratings the other way around. AOTC is not good, and TCW is just horse ****. And while AOTC could've introduced the war better, they did go into the clones, as well as introducing Dooku and the CIS. Even if AOTC didn't have tight writing, the Separatist meeting with Dooku, Obi-Wan's investigation, and the crawl + Bail's dialogue prior to the battle, helped a bit for the audience. I'm not going into the love story because that was just crap setup for Luke and Leia.

And yes, I am aware of the TCW film's episodes. As I said before, it was poorly put together...

 

Because Obi-Wan uncovered the CIS building an army and confirmed that the CIS(and Dooku) was responsible for terrorist attacks against the Republic. He then contacted the Republic who voted on if they wished to take military action against the CIS. The vote passed and thus the war began.

The creation of the clone army itself was meant to be mysterious. We were not suppost to know the answer.

 

Yes, there's no opening crawl to the TCW film, but it seems that the opening narration was meant to take the place of an opening crawl - just as they've continued to do an opening narration on every episode. I thought the opening narration to the TCW film provided adequate information for the plot.

 

You don't say

Jabba's son, not for filler Christophsis.

 

Well, Mace Windu says the only Jedi Knights he can spare (to rescue Jabba's son) are Obi-Wan and Anakin who are on Christophsis.

 

Why are they even there? Do you see where I am getting at. Hell, they could've been in that room with Mace and completely avoided that planet.

 

We still don't know why there is a Confederacy of Independent Systems. So we don't know what their issue with the Republic is, or why they'd feel justified in executing terrorist attacks. We don't know anything by the end of the film about that that we didn't learn in the opening crawl. So why take a whole movie to get there?

Same with the clones. Why wait till the very end of the film to introduce them in war if you're not going to explain their origins anyway? These things could have been covered in the crawl and the movie could have started during a battle like Ep. IV or TCW film.

I like how the villains are handled in TCW film better. In Ep. II the Count is mentioned in the crawl and a couple times by characters in the film, but doesn't actually appear until the end of the film, and we don't see him with Darth Sidious until the very, very end. In TCW film Ventress gets a proper introduction scene with both Darth Tyranus and Darth Sidious that establishes their hierarchy and roles in the war, and then she's used in action scenes throughout the film (instead of only the end like the Count in Ep. II). And then in the end of the film the audience graduates to a Darth Tyranus fight, which has more weight to it when you've seen him in the beginning giving orders to Ventress since as his superior one would expect him to be more powerful with the Force, and even him using Force-lightening is more epic because you've been seeing a dark side character fight for much of the movie who couldn't do that (unlike Ep. II). As I'm sure you'll agree this difference is even more important when comparing turd sandwiches.

 

Wasn't the point of the battle of Christophsis over resources or something like that? And the battle is then rushed because the plot with Jabba's son is introduced? The movie starts up right in the thick of a major battle in the Clone Wars. Immediately gives us a big taste of it and what TCW will be all about. Then it introduces the plot with Jabba's son who needs to be rescued to gain access to those hyperspace lanes. The darksiders who stand in there way (classic SW right?) are properly introduced as big bads. Many characters both old and new who will be big players in the show are introduced right off the bat. Things role from there.

Works for me since sometimes plans change. Ahsoka's introduction is pretty abrupt but its not like Anakin is immediately like, "Oh welcome to the club. Lets go blow up some droids". Battles of war are normally full of explosions and nameless soldiers getting ma'amed in a fight. War is supposed to be terrible like that. I didn't get the impression it was all flash. I can think of alot of reasons to bash the movie bit it definitely wasn' like a Michael Bay film. Both the TCW Movie and AOTC featured battles that were pretty much on par with each other in that department.

The TCW movie however didn't have that boring as hell, forced attempt at a love story. Yeah that's an important plot point but it about puts me to sleep. So does just about everything up until the point where Mace Windu shows up at the Geonosian Colosseum or whatever that doesn't involve Jango Fett or Tuskin Raider slaughter. I have always been just as satisfied with the mysterious introduction of the clones in AOTC. The TCW movie also puts me to sleep with just about everything that happens on Tatoonie and Coruscant. I really find AOTC and the TCW movie on par as far as my enjoyment of them.

 

Its all there in the films. Its about trade sanctions, political manipulation and greed. In the end there is a CIS because Papatine needed one so he maniplated its leadership to make war against the Republic.

We were not suppost to know Dooku was a villian - of course LFL handled this in terrible fashion and gave away the secret in the AOTC trailer - but that was what they were trying to do. You can't try and make the audience wonder if Dooku is evil if you give him a scene with Sidious, or show him doing evil at the start of the film. Dooku being a Sith is meant as a surprise. Jango was meant to be the traditional villian.

If a character has, or does not have, action scenes is irrelevent.

 

GGrievous, I see what you're saying, but I didn't really care enough to ask the questions you're asking, so I wasn't confused in the slightest, I was busy being entertained.

I have a problem with Anakin getting a Padawan in the first place, but not his apprentice saying "I'm your Padawan" and going from there.

 

Whether it's all there in the films is a matter of how one defines it. I find leaving so much of it unexplained to be unsatisfactory, so I would not say it's all there. If you want to take whatever little bits they give us and claim that means it's all there, fine, you may define it however you please. The point I was making is that they devote a whole film to a mystery without revealing anything about it that wasn't revealed in the opening crawl, with the exception of the clones which is not mentioned in the crawl but nonetheless remain an unresolved mystery, which is wasting the movie and one of the reasons I like TCW film better.

If we weren't supposed to know Dooku was a villain till the very end of Ep. II, I can't imagine why they could possibly think it was a good idea to establish in the opening crawl that he's the leader of the separatists who are the ones giving the Jedi and the Republic a hard time. Setting him up as a/the leader of the bad guys isn't exactly making it a mystery that he's a bad guy. If it was meant as a surprise is irrelevant, it wasn't a surprise, and if it's not going to be a surprise anyway you might as well do some better stuff with the character like with Ventress in TCW film. Jango doesn't do it for me, he doesn't use the dark side of the Force or a lightsaber.

Comparing two works of art is not like comparing two turd sandwiches. If we were comparing two works of art, I would not come around saying that more screen-time with a lightsaber-wielding dark side Force-user makes one better than the other. But when comparing turd sandwiches, it becomes a different story, and stuff like that becomes much more important IMO. This is a matter of opinion so I don't see the use in attempting to label certain criterion irrelevant.

 

It was good because Ziro was in it.

 

Yeah the whole "Dooku-is-not-bad-but-mysterious" angle really didn't work. He was used well in the film, though IMO.

 

Tarkas, you got a "like" for referencing turd sandwiches.

I actually prefer the "Dooku isn't pure evil, he's a political idealist" former Jedi Master who got fed up with the Republic and the Council over the "I must betray my master but first muahahahaha kill da wimmin and da chilren and Imma racist even though I work with aliens" cookie cutter Sith.

I saw so much more potential in AOTC Dooku than what we have in TCW Dooku.

 

The Jedi stood up for Dooku in the second scene of the film. He was mentioned to be a political idealist, not a murderer. You seem to have approached viewing that film in a very black and white way. Establishing him as the leader of a Seperatist cause we know very little about doesn't make him a villian. Also the Republic was of course being run by a Sith Lord and on the verge of using a slave army to fight their war.

While I'd be inclined to agree that the Jedi are the "good guys" but I never for one moment viewed the Republic in the same way, as in the Republic was not the "good guys."

Now how well this worked is open to debate. I don't think it worked well at all due to the advertising blitz and toys/books coming out before the films release that gave away everything - but that was what the film was trying to do. Ki Adi Mundi telling us, point blank, that Dooku isn't a bad guy about a minute into the film is self explanatory. They could have done it better of course, but it wasn't like no effort was being made.

Your flat out saying that the action scenes were relevent to establishing a villian. I don't agree - If thats you opinion thats fine. I personally think a villian like Palpatine was used perfectly in Star Wars. He never really had an action scene in the OT, yet he was the greatest villian ever, so in my opinion action scenes are irrelevent to establishing villians.

Same goes for Jabba, great villian, never had a lightsaber battle.

If you want to have lightsabers and lightning and frizzy do-bobs thats your perogative. I'm not looking for those things at all.

 

The separatist cause is something we still only know very little about at the end of the movie, which is one of my biggest complaints about the film. By the logic you present, you could argue we still don't know whether Count Dooku is a villain when the film is over because of that very fact. This is a huge failing of the film and one reason I think TCW film is better.

I was asked why I like TCW film better than Ep. II and gave some reasons. You popped in and said my reason was irrelevant. You don't have to agree for it to be relevant in the context of my answer. For the record, as I already said in the post you're quoting but you're not addressing, this is not something I would bring up to compare two good movies but it is a bigger deal when comparing two crappy movies. I'm entertained by dark side Force-users with lightsabers in fight scenes.

 

My thoughts on the current "AOTC vs. 2008's TCW": AOTC is infinitely better.

Firstly, TCW movie looks terrible. Absolutely ugly. The entire film is filled with battle sequences, and though these are exciting at first, I do not like to see 88 minutes (out of a 98 minute film) of clones and droids (all nameless/faceless) fighting it out. Why should I care that they are fighting?

There is a scene where Anakin and Ahsoka sneak through an army in a box. Metal Gear Solid, this is not.

Ahsoka is annoying. I'm a big fan of Ahsoka Tano now, but back then, she was obnoxious, bratty, had 8-year old level nicknames (she's 14, I know, a revelation right?).

Ziro the Hutt. WTF?

I almost missed a great Star Wars TV series because of the disastrous film it decided to start with.

 

I don't think TCW film looks great, but I find Ep. II's mixture of live-action and CGI much more displeasing to the eye. I agree that Ahsoka is super annoying, though I'm certainly not a fan of her now either.

 

All films around that time period have CGI that stands out a little now. CGI just keeps improving. TCW film's looks aren't the main reason I hate it, just a contributing factor.