Canderous and Cade's Crazy Cantina: a shiny new fanfiction social thread!

Hey, I'm back! It's been a while since I've called around.

About the K/J thing, I'm generally cool with it if the situation is that they didn't have much, or any, contact as Jaina was growing up. What I find creepy is when it's specifically said that Kyp was around when Jaina was little, that he frequently visited and babysat or played with her. 'Cause then she'd just never see him that way, even if he at some point realised "holy crap she's grown up and pretty now".

Also, you guys, I need some help... I never read LOTF, but now I'm writing a fanfic where Lumiya is trying to turn Jacen, and I want it to kind of "echo" the scene from LOTF. Not in a super-serious way, mind. I may well end up poking fun at them both. Is it true that Lumiya basically said "hey, you should learn the Sith ways, because it's the only way to stop the coming war. The Sith aren't necessarily evil and you can resist the temptation to become like Palpatine, and besides Vergere was a Sith too, and look, if you don't kill Nelani you'll end up fighting Luke"? Am I leaving out something important?

I've read the main scene - the one where they're in that cavern place - by now, but I still can't figure out why exactly Jacen decided to turn. It never made any sense to me. Halp?

 

It seems to me, Inverna, that the seeds of his turning was well before that. I read only part of the Swarm series (couldn't get beyond the first couple chapters of the first book), and at the beginning of that, he was no longer the warm, caring, thoughtful Jacen I and many readers loved. He was cold and apathetic. Unless they went into the years between the ending of the Yuzzhan Vong War and the Swarm, then I don't think his turning will ever make sense.

 

Iverna It doesn't make sense to you, because it doesn't make sense to almost anybody. But you are basically right with your interpretation. She tricks Jacen to coming to the planet Lorrd with some stupid tassels which I guess only one person in the galaxy has the ability to interpret properly...and they are on Lorrd. While on Lorrd Lumiya gets into people's minds and make them kidnap innocents and demand to see a Jedi. It is a long way around to get Jacen to come with her to the home of Darth Vectivus who was a "good" Sith. She couldn't get Jacen there alone and Nelani and Ben are with him. Lumiya separates them so she can run her spiel to Jacen about the galaxy is going to go to hell in a hand basket and only a Sith can pull together the various governments and save the universe from great sorrow.

For some reason he believes it and Nelani tells him she is going to tell on him. And then he goes through some Force technique where he looks to the future and he realizes if he doesn't kill Nelani Luke will die, but if he does kill Nelani Luke doesn't die. So what is he going to do? He has no choice? He's got to start killing willy nilly to save Uncle Luke.

I still to this day don't understand exactly Lumiya's motives and I don't want to reread those novels and try to figure it out. If you want a solid answer go over to the Lit Forum. Those guys must write Wookiepedia. I think they sit around and memorize the SW novels like a geeky version of the character Granger in Fahrenheit 451.

 

I always figured Lumiya was always working for The One Sith on Korriban, Darth Krayt and all, in order to undermine the Jedi and weaken the Alliance and Empire for their eventual return.


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Didn't Lumiya say the One Sith betrayed the Rule of Two, therefore they were not real Sith? I got the feeling that she despised the One Sith.

But yeah, no one's motives in LOTF are exactly clear. I thought part of the reason Jacen went dark was to save Luke from dying, yet Jacen tries to kill Luke multiple times later on in the series.

It's been a number of years since I read the books, and they were unclear back then.

 

The latest (dumb) canon explanation as of Apocalypse is actually that Lumiya was wholly irrelevant to Jacen turning dark. It was basically always going to happen because of a vision he saw during his post-NJO travels. Which is dumb, because his vision is of Darth Krayt ruling on a dark throne with Allana by his side. But Allana wasn't even conceived, let alone born, when he had this vision. He was doomed (and basically doomed the galaxy with the whole Abeloth thing) by trying to alter the future from his vision. That explanation completely marginalizes Lumiya's role in his conversion, but that's what we get.

You could argue that because of his vision and because Allana was 4 or 5, he realizes by Betrayal that it was her in the vision and then decided to change the future, making him vulnerable to Lumiya. But Lumiya didn't know about Allana so her motive is still entirely unknown, and that still leaves you with the completely idiotic Jacen being swayed by Lumiya's lies. As Briannakin said, she isn't working on behalf of the One Sith though she did have contact with them. IIRC, they didn't think much of her when Alema encounters them in LotF.

The best I think we're left with in LotF is that Lumiya and Vergere were the last remnants of the Palpatine order and they were simply trying to continue his galactic domination work via Jacen. Anything more detailed and concrete than that starts getting counter-intuitive (like Jacen turning to stop Luke from dying and then trying to kill Luke).

 

We can all agree that the Darkside screws up ones thought processes and the person has no clue what he's doing and why, only that he must. It explains Jacen, Anakin, Luke, Dooku, and everyone else that is not Palpatine.

Palps knew exactly what he was doing. Lol.


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Yep, the darkside is one hell of a drug.

 

That actually makes a lot of sense, especially in Jacen's case. Wasn't there those Darkside PSA's on youtube a while back about the darkside frying your brain?

 

Anakin: Hi, my name is Anakin and I'm addicted to the Darkside.

Everyone: Hello, Anakin.

Palpatine: Welcome to Darksiders Anonymous. Dooku, if you would do the honors and help Anakin here understand what it is we do here?

Dooku, grumpily: As you wish, Master.

Palpatine: No, no. Dooku, we do not say "As you wish, Master." Remember, we're trying to purge ourselves of our addiction.

Dooku: Then why do you have me...

Palpatine, sighs: Nevermind. Asajj, please?

Ventress: Oh fine.

 

The Twelve Steps to the Light Side

1. Admit we were powerless over the Dark Side—that our lives had become unmanageable (e.g. Force-choking the waitress that brought you the wrong order).
2. Believe that the living Force could keep us from desiring to destroy and conquer the galaxy.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the light side of the Force.
4. Make a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. Make a list of the wrongs you made (if this list can result in your arrest and conviction and possible execution...make sure it is heavily encrypted and do not share with other members).
5. Admitted to all the exact nature of our wrongs (e.g. blowing up planets, killing younglings--once again do not share if it will result in prosecution before your 12 steps are complete).
6. Ask the Living Force to remove all these defects of character and keep you from killing people who cut in front of you in the speeder lanes.
7. Fully turn ourself over to the Light Side of the Force and ask it to purge our shortcomings.
8. Make a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all (this may be difficult if you blew up an entire planet).
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others (e.g. don't tell your son his father is some darksider you slept with while drunk at a party...just say "there is no father").
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it (e.g. tell your daughter you are sorry you tortured her).
11. Continue meditation to improve our conscious contact with the Force.
12. Carry this message to other dark siders, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

I'm not making fun of AA. They are a good organization. I just wish there was a Darksider recovery version for Jacen in the EU.

 

Oh, whew, that's confusing. I'm glad I'm not the only one who can't make sense of it though! Was Vergere definitely a Sith or was that just another lie, though? It was never clear in the NJO, and I stopped reading after that series.

I think I'll just go with Lumiya wanting to lure Jacen to the Dark Side, maybe interfering in his visions, etc, because she wants to use him a tool to take over the world. That's a Sith thing to do, right? They don't seem to need much more complex motivations than that, in the end it always comes down to wanting power...

It'll probably end up being a complete parody at this stage. There's just too much silliness. Why would he attack or fight Luke after going to all that trouble to avoid just that? Jacen, you silly boy...

But thanks for the explanations, guys! Or the attempts at explanations, I should say.

 

I think Wookiepedia says Vergere was definitely a Sith, but all during my reading of the novels I thought it might be a lie. But I either missed something or there is something written in a Before the Saga book that clarifies that point. I just thought that was a "What the Hell" moment when I found out she was Sith because I didn't see any clues. I don't like it when authors do that. To them if there was no clues to the contrary...then it is okay to say somebody was a Sith. It would be like if we found out in EP7 that Yoda and Obi-Wan were also Sith and that is why they actually survived and Palpatine had them hide Anakin's children. Oh, yeah...all that dialog that pointed against the Sith theory...well that was just Yoda and Obi-Wan playing the part of Jedi in case anybody was recording their actions. You know that wouldn't be too bad of a plot bunny.

Anyway, who knows what Lumiya was thinking. I think she was smoking death sticks. She was stoned all the time...that makes more sense than anything else I read.

I am writing a Lumiya and Jacen story right now. I am going to clarify her actions as the story goes on. I hope there is no, "Why did she do that?" moments at the end of my story.

 

From Betrayal (because I've been thinking about this all day and had to look into it further):
[Sith phantom speaking to crazy Lumiya]
He will learn that the attack at Toryaz Station was your doing. That good men were ruined by the phantoms from your mind, phantoms taking the forms of those they loved. That this war to come could have been prevented but for your interference.
"Yes, someday, perhaps... And by the time Jacen discovers the full truth, he will understand how important he is, how he could not come to be without those events occurring, and he will forgive me."
I feel his emotions. He will hate you for these events.
"But he will love me for them, too."
Yes.
"Then I know balance. The balance of the Sith."

It's deeper than wanting power. Lumiya ultimately gives her own life to ensure Jacen's secret Sithliness is protected for a little while longer (after killing Mara), so it isn't about any sort of personal gain to her.
Rereading earlier parts of their encounter, she at least presents it to Jacen as more about helping him realize a destiny and purpose, which appeals to him because he feels all bored and useless in the days since the Yuuzhan Vong war (poor Jacen). Assuming any amount of truth in what she says, she and Vergere recognized the follies of the psychopath brand of Sith like Palpatine and are more about this balance aspect of Sith, feeling that Jedi unnaturally restrict themselves with their methods and rules. So she feels it to be her duty to the balance of the Sith to help the next promising Sith Lord rise to power; but not necessarily to dictate his course from there, once he had achieved it.

Or something like that.

 

LexiLupin -- From that passage that is what I thought also...and that is probably what Aaron Allston had in mind. It's just the plot got so confusing and her actions didn't always make sense. That's the trouble you have when you have multiple authors and a story line that takes a dozen books to detail. I think even the authors get confused.

 

I don't think it was Jacen. I think it was Jaacen.

 

I once read a plot bunny or something that suggested that pretty much every Jedi in LOTF was a clone. It actually made a lot of sense. Luke was definitely Luuke or Luuuke in that series.

 

Ooh, was it the Zahn April Fool thing? That was great. Now I have to find it...

edit: http://star-wars.suvudu.com/2012/04...s-and-exclusive-epilogue-by-timothy-zahn.html

 

Ohh yeah. I think I might be mixing that with a plot bunny someone once told me. It all just kinda blurs together now :S

Edit: Or maybe the person's idea spawned from that.

 

The presence of all those clones (cloones?) reeks of . . . SuperShadow. Oh dear. We're doomed.

 

I love the epic epicness bit.

 

Nobody can say that Zahn doesn't have a sense of humor. Or Del Rey. They approached Zahn to write it. Hehe.

 

That would be an interesting plot bunny. When Jacen went off on his journey to learn the Force he was captured by a beautiful mind-witch who developed a psychic link to him and kept him in an illusionary state of mind where Jacen thought the mind-witch was actually Tenel Ka.

The mind witch was going to kill him, but fell in love with the boy and decided to keep him alive, but within the illusion. She knew he was a Jedi and eventually people would search for him. So she had him cloned and the clone was given Jacen's memories and he returned to his family. Unfortunately the clone was defective and had difficulty determining right from wrong and was easily tricked...such as the time he gave up his life savings for a packet of magical beans. He eventually fell into the clutches of Lumiya and he believed every nonsensical rubbish that came out of her mouth. His feable clone mind could not comprehend the events happening around him and one day he snapped. He went into a homicidal rage killing those he thought he loved the most until his beloved sister came to put him out of his misery.

Meanwhile, around 45 ABY the mindwitch dies and the real Jacen Solo is freed from the clutches of the evil creature. He eventually returns to his family and is promptly killed by Ben Skywalker who thought he was a zombie.

Such a sad, sad, story.

 

Jedi_lover, for the love of the Force, PLEASE write a series of vignettes based on your twelve-step program.

 

And this is why I turned my back on the books. Again.
Confuses the hell out of me, doesn't make sense anymore. I really liked Jacen. Granted, he got a little annoying during NJO but it was something you could work with, you know? He was a teen with growing pains smack in the middle of puberty. His actions are forgiven. But beyond that? Urgh.

But looking at the Dark Side as a drug is actually a pretty cool idea. Seriously. Overdosing on Dark Side energy...it'd make for a really awesome story.