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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

ST Who's The Baddie?

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by fishtailsam, Oct 31, 2012.

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  1. darthbarracuda

    darthbarracuda Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 4, 2012
    I'm not against the idea of Plagueis coming back and being in the ST...maybe he actually found the secret of immortality and didn't really die...
    But I really hope they don't include witchcraft and stuff like the Dathomir witches...it's OK in the clone wars but doesn't belong in the movies.

    I'd personally like to see Sith in the ST, and I think they will put them in it.
    However I think it'd be cool if the main antagonists in the first ST films were like non-Force users, maybe like Mandalorians or something...but they are just puppets of the Sith and the Sith aren't revealed until the very end of the first movie when one of the head top Mandalorian dudes talk to the Sith via hologram.
    OK so I'm a little ahead of myself in detail but the main point is to start out with a non-Force enemy, and then they are betrayed by their Sith masters. I think it'd be so sweet if they could have like a secret attack on the Alliance/New Republic...but idk
     
  2. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    I think I've made this point several times but I'll try and make it again. Of course there are numerous ways the Sith could return in the ST but does that really mean they should? I'm certainly not advocating a trilogy about bounty hunters wielding lightsabers because that would be pretty silly. I'm not advocating Dark Jedi because I personally find that a weak substitute for Sith. I'm simply advocating for a little creativity and hoping for something we truly haven't seen before. I'm advocating for something along the lines of philosophical differences in Luke's Jedi Order which could allow us to really get to the heart of what it means to be a Jedi Knight. Neither of the two sides would be necessarily wrong in their beliefs but there conflict would cause disorder in the galaxy. I would have the fledgling New Republic battered on all sides from multiple enemies and not being able to rely on the Jedi because of their own conflict. The New Republic would be faced with the moral question of whether it is right or not to unify the galaxy when so many are fighting to keep their independence (the Old Republic wasn't such a benevolent government in itself and I can see many systems not wanting any part of the new government on Coruscant and becoming isolationist). Something like this has much more potential IMO than a rehash of the Sith but to each their own.
     
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  3. Lord TW

    Lord TW Jedi Master star 2

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    Dec 25, 2012
    1. No Sith does not mean no light saber duels. General Grievous, anyone?

    2. The more I read this, the more I like the idea of Plagueis. BUT...

    3. Introducing new villains into an established series, without any prior knowledge or mention, is not impossible. It happened with each episode of the PT (tho some might say weakly); it happened in Harry Potter (better - think Order of the Phoenix); and, most recently - and to terrific effect - it happened in Skyfall. The film makers managed to create a villain with a backstory that made complete sense in the context of James Bond.

    Frankly, IMO, the bigger challenge is finding a good protagonist. I don't believe using Luke or the big 3 is necessarily an inspired idea, nor do I like the idea of Solo offspring or any other EU fan fiction garbage (sorry).
     
  4. LunarMoth

    LunarMoth Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 27, 2012
    As long as the writting is solid, I'm down with a non-Sith ST. Most of my comments on the Sith subject are in response to people saying that they can't do it. Personally, I think we will see Sith in the ST, but I don't feel that we "have to".....

    I would like to see a bit of conflict between Luke and Leia that stems from Luke wanting to do something like remove the Jedi from any role in government, while Leia wants his, and therfore the Jedi support, ni rebuilding the Republic.
     
  5. Darth Cornish

    Darth Cornish Jedi Grand Master star 1

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    Nov 7, 2000
    Perhaps a better approach would be to show Vader doing something unimportant, then we have the perfect excuse to show Vader in Ep vii doing lots of unimportant things.
    Star Wars Episode VII: Unimportant Vader. It has a nice ring to it.

    I do think it is a challenge though, to link in a new baddie after a six film arc that ties everything up nicely - and anything that can be done to tie in a new baddie with what has already gone before is in my opinion a good thing.
     
  6. Tan-Wessel

    Tan-Wessel Force Ghost star 4

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    May 31, 2001
    Just playing along for fun. I caught myself up on Plagueis via the wookiepedia...

    Let's say Sidious was initially correct after all and Plagueis did end up preserving his identity after death as opposed to Sidious dismissing the notion and concluding that it was actually Maul's death that accounted for the disturbance in The Force he felt. Let's also presume that Anakin still is the Chosen One and did bring balance to The Force. There were Sith, the Dark Side, and all kinds of other philosophies on the Force well before Sidious and Anakin existed, and the Jedi began to lose their connections to The Force.

    Perhaps the whole imbalance was really due to Plagueis putzing around with midichlorian-manipulation resulting in The Force "punishing" him from a certain point of view by creating Anakin in a "Be careful what you wish for" situation. His earlier midi-manips probably unbalanced The Force somewhat, but to negligible degrees wherein The Force could course-correct itself without needing any major event to occur. But his major attempt, along with Sidious' assistance, really screwed things up necessitating The Force to do something with all those unstable/unnatural midichlorians and bottled it up in what becomes Anakin. Anakin/Vader brings balance to the force through his own death and not so much Sidious' death, allowing all that bottled up displaced midichlorians to dissipate naturally back into The Force (although, destroying the Sith was another part of The Prophecy, but it didn't really state that there was a correlation between the two. And technically, "destroying the Sith" independent of bringing balance to The Force still allows for any future reborn and/or newly created Sith faction."

    Let's continue the Plagueis fun (whether you're for or against it anyways)...

    Even though it was a failed experiment, Plagueis still learned some things from the failure as does any scientist. It may have been the actual event that implanted the idea in his head on how to go about "keeping people from dying" including himself. In this sense, I see it similar to when Qui-Gon died and how he didn't exactly know how, but had an idea of how to preserve his identity via becoming a Force ghost - initially his body didn't fade away at all and following that he was only able to reconstitute his consciousness/identity as a disembodied voice which incidentally took about 10 years or so. After doing such, he must have figured out how to do the fading away, actual blueish Force Ghost part since he taught it to Yoda and Obi-Wan. Anyways, flip it with Plagueis, who dies by Sidious' hand, uses whatever knowledge and proficiency he has with The Force and particularly midi-manips into retaining his identity through reconstitution or transference to some sort of vessel only to find that his theory is right or close...but he lacks the amount of midichlorians necessary to execute actually coming back in a corporeal form. When he did it before with Anakin, it was definitely the unintended result and he even had another powerful Force user in Sidious helping him out with his own power. So we now have a disembodied Plagueis floating around with the know-how, but without the power...or better yet focus nor the availability of midichlorians to manipulate (due in large part to Anakin hoarding a good chunk of it already).

    Fast-forward past Dooku's death (Qui-Gon and Maul's too if you want...but all three died at about the same time), all the subsequent Jedi deaths up through The Clone Wars and disembodied Plagueis still doesn't have enough midichlorians to work with in addition to those he has access to throughout the Galaxy not umm "attached" to any Force-sensitive being...but he's getting there.

    The next milestone for Plagueis would be the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin duel. It's pretty evident that suited Vader was nowhere close to what he was supposed to have become in Sidious' eyes. Sidious was so proud of not only himself, but Vader too in a twisted sense - he makes mention of this paternal pride during his duel with Yoda in the Senate building (paraphrased): "He will become even greater than either you and I." In the OT, Sidious is repeatedly seemingly annoyed with Vader as opposed to how he coddled and ego-stroked Vader in the PT. Even after Vader got freshly suited, he was still a fan. It's after noticing how much less abilities and proficiency Vader has that Sidious' attitude changes, but contents himself with Vader being just "good enough" since all the hard parts are all over and he already got the prize...but the second Luke shows up he is so eager to replace Vader with the bright new shiny model that he may be able to do a do-over with. Anywho...the relevance of this is that perhaps when Obi-Wan defeated Anakin, and whatever else remained of Anakin that the lava pretty much took out as well, this also included Anakin's unique strong connection to The Force...not just physical reasons for his greatly diminished connection and abilities, but also due to the mental and spiritual trauma he had just experienced. This could have resulted in a lot of midichlorians being freed up or at the very least accessible by disembodied Plagueis to play with.

    What else happened during this time? Padme's suddenly going into labor prematurely as well as the sudden surprise to EVERYONE that there are twins. It's assured that Padme wasn't expecting twins because if she were, then she would have definitely have told Anakin, when she told him she was preggers, who had no idea about Leia being his child also until Luke screwed up with his feelings. The twin (either one...unknown for the moment which) could be the result of Plagueis having enough midichlorians to manipulate now, enough meditation and focus since there wasn't much else to do all these years, and the power to try again. He duplicated enough of what he did the successful/unsuccessful time around that he knew was right which is why the attraction of a test subject was to Anakin's offspring. Remember that the medical droid even makes mention of having no idea why Padme is dying, that she shouldn't be but is...and that all parties involved reluctantly just make the supposition that she died of a broken heart and the loss of the will to live (adequately effective enough for dramatic effect regardless).

    The twin is Plagueis' successful attempt at creating life (the intended life) through midichlorian-manipulation. It is what caused Padme's death. It templated the one fetus and made a copy of sorts. At this moment in time the Force is still unbalanced, so neither Yoda nor Obi-Wan have a clue that something is amiss. Whether Luke or Leia is really the vessel for Plagueis is a toss up. It'd be pretty controversial, to put it lightly, if either one was suddenly revealed to have been housing the Master Sith, especially Luke, given years-worth of attachment by fandom. Maybe it's easier if the twin was Plagueis' successful attempt at creating life, but not yet capable of transferring his consciousness into, thus preserving both protagonists' achievements and characters. Instead, Vader's death on Death Star II and bringing balance to The Force is what allows Plagueis to finally be able to perform the last step into coming back in either twin. He avoided the ramifications of The Prophecy, got revenge on his apprentice, grew even more knowledgable and proficient with the Force, and can return pretty much unchallenged. From a narrative point-of-view you get your tragic hero impetus for the next-gen protagonists while not really tainting what made the pre-existing character a hero in the first place. You get a viable big bad that allows the ST to be part of the overall saga as opposed to its own self-contained trilogy that just happens to take place in the same GFFA as well as a villain of equal or better standing as the last two trilogies instead of feeling tacked on just for the ST to fill the antagonist role...a villain who doesn't have to worry at all about any Force out of balance nor Sith existence reliant on the same.

    Anyways, I'm just playing around. I don't have a horse in this race.
     
  7. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 7, 2012

    your horse wins
     
  8. Blue_Jedi33

    Blue_Jedi33 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Aug 12, 2003
    Tan-Wessel

    Interesting but I would hate the a possession type scenario in the ST of any Skywalker's or Solo's, better that some unsuspecting life form (not a Gungan) stumble upon the area where his life force has been trapped for decades, then this human/Alien becomes the new Sith, Plagueis reborn the other beings, soul erased by the dark side.

    That being said what species would people favor to be this new Sith ?
    How about a Besalisk ?

     
  9. Lord Optimus

    Lord Optimus Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jul 30, 2011
    Here’s an idea similar to something I posted earlier, kind of corny but I like it, downside is Hayden Christensen would have to reprise his role.

    Plagueis possessed Darth Sidious ever since Sidious killed him in his sleep. Once Vader killed Sidious in ROTJ, Plagueis had to find a new force sensitive body to possess. He can’t possess Luke because Luke is strong in fending off the dark side, so he finds a random force sensitive host. He tried the rule of two and playing politics with Sidious and it ultimately failed so in the time between episode 6 and 7 he has been building a small army of Sith to take control of galaxy by brute force knowing the Jedi are still small in numbers.

    When the Sith show up, Luke is confused having thought Anakin brought balance to the force so he seeks advice from the force ghosts of Yoda, Obi Wan, Anakin, and Qui Gon. They decide that Luke must search for the ancient prophecy in order to unravel the mystery of the chosen one and bringing balance to the force. When Luke finds the ancient text, the prophecy tells of a powerful being in the dark side netherworld that is ultimately unbalancing the force. It says that the chosen one must descend into the dark side netherworld and destroy it in order to truly bring balance to the force.

    The force ghosts of Anakin, Yoda, Obi Wan, and Qui Gon descend into the dark side netherworld. Upon reaching the gates they encounter the lost souls of Darth Sidious, Vader, Tyranus, and Maul. Sidious was the body that Plagueis possessed, and Vader, Tyranus, and Maul were the souls he converted to the dark side. They must destroy them in order to enter the gates, Yoda vs. Sidious, Anakin vs. Vader (suited up Vader), Obi Wan vs. Tyranus, and Qui Gon vs. Maul. All the Jedi win and redeem themselves for previous losses. The gates open but only the chosen one may enter, Anakin must destroy Plagueis in order to truly bring balance to the force. Meanwhile back in the real reality Luke and his fellow Jedi must destroy the possessed body of Plagueis and his heralds.

    You could throw out the whole Darth Vader lost soul part if you want since he redeemed himself in ROTJ, just thought it would be cool to see suited up Vader vs. Anakin.
     
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  10. Lord Optimus

    Lord Optimus Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jul 30, 2011
    Quick recap of how things play out

    Episode VII – The Sith show up, start some kind of war, Luke seeks advice of Yoda, Obi Wan, Anakin, and Qui Gon. They decide that Luke must search for the ancient prophecy.

    Episode VIII – Luke searches for the ancient prophecy, finds it, discovers what has to be done in order to bring balance to the force.

    Episode IX – Anakin, Yoda, Obi Wan, and Qui Gon descend into the dark side netherworld to destroy Plagueis. Luke and his fellow Jedi destroy the heralds of Plagueis in the real reality.

    There would also be some kind of war going on to make Lea, Han, Chewie, and Lando relevant. Maybe the Sith have a Mandalorian army at their disposal, or there could still be some of the Empire still around.
     
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  11. Lord TW

    Lord TW Jedi Master star 2

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    Dec 25, 2012
    Creative but too complex for the typical moviegoer
     
  12. The other Cleopatra's

    The other Cleopatra's Jedi Youngling

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    Jan 4, 2013
    A sith from the fat gungan subspecies would be nice.
     
  13. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 7, 2012



    i love the anakin vs vader idea... or at least anakin vs plagueis
     
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  14. Palpatine2016

    Palpatine2016 Jedi Master star 4

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    Nov 12, 2012
    I don't think those characters are going to be that involved.
     
  15. JoeyArnold

    JoeyArnold Jedi Youngling star 3

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    Nov 7, 2012

    what would be cooler then?
     
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  16. G-FETT

    G-FETT Chosen One star 7

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    Aug 10, 2001
    Just got done with Darth Plagueis - If thats not a set up for the ST I don't know what it. :eek:

    I reakon Plagueis did "die" in terms of his mortal body, but managed to keep himself going in the after-life. Somehow he will continue to manipulate events after Sidious's death and Anakin and Luke will have to desend into the netherworld to bring balance by defeating Plagueis once and for all.
     
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  17. The Bops

    The Bops Jedi Master star 2

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    Oct 30, 2012
    Does it have to be about 'being cooler'? I want a good story, not necessarily a cool one.
     
  18. Lord Optimus

    Lord Optimus Jedi Knight star 2

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    Jul 30, 2011
    If Plagueis is the villain of the ST, should they keep him a Muun like he is in the books, or change his species. I'm not a fan of the look of Muun's, if they use him in the movies I hope they change his species to something more iconic looking.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Panakas_Dawg

    Panakas_Dawg Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jul 29, 2004
    A little too "Voldemort" for my tastes (I loved HP, but think it'd not sit well with SW as a whole). I do like your idea of him being released, Dracula-like, from his "coffin" by some unwitting pawn in the Force's gameplan.
     
  20. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 1, 2012


    Well, that's a crap drawing; Muuns don't really have noses.

    Here's a better drawing of Mr. Damask:

    [​IMG]


    Maybe a bit too Voldemort-like, but it is what it is. BTW, keep in mind that it was Lucas' idea to have Plagueis be a Muun, so if he appears, it's unlikely to be changed.
     
  21. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    I've seen the second picture before and I've always thought that it was a picture of Voldemort from Goblet of Fire with his head stretched to make it look like Plagueis. I could be wrong though.
     
  22. KED12345

    KED12345 Jedi Master star 4

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    Sep 10, 2012
    It is Voldemort, from Goblet of Fire.
     
  23. Darth Chiznuk

    Darth Chiznuk Superninja of Future Films star 8 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 31, 2012
    Yeah, I thought so.
     
  24. Count Yubnub

    Count Yubnub Force Ghost star 5

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    Oct 1, 2012
    Yeah, I thought so.[/quote]


    I don't know whether he is or not (possibly, but I'm not sure, Voldemort still had nostrils, IIRC) but the point is, there are ways of making a Muun look creepy and evil and cool, should they choose to have Plagueis in the ST. (And that picture of him with the lightsabers isn't one of those ways.)
     
  25. startravellerearth

    startravellerearth Jedi Youngling star 1

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    Dec 12, 2012
    Was that story about Darth Plageius "keeping those he loved from dying" a lie? Palpatine deceived Anakin into thinkin that as a way for him to join him & the Sith.
     
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