Full Series The Clone Wars - 5.16 - Lawless - discussion thread

The idea of Sidious caring about the Sith Lord championship belt is laughable. The stakes are so much higher that the mantle seems like a consolation prize in comparison.

If you want to say that Sidious has to take out Maul personally to ensure his identity remains a secret, or to protect his "Grand Plan", that's at least reasonable (though I disagree). But to claim the "mantle" of the Dark Lord means anything to Sidious is just wrong and out of character. Seriously, who cares about the title of Dark Lord? I think Maul is the only one (because he's butthurt over getting replaced), not Sidious or even Dooku or Savage care about the title. Ventress doesn't care anymore. Almost no one else outside the Jedi even knows what a Sith is. Why does Sidious so desperately need to defend some intangible title that almost no one knows exists, much less that he holds it.

Sidious is SUPREME CHANCELLOR OF THE REPUBLIC and wants the title of EMPEROR, he wants to rule the galaxy, he couldn't care less about being "The Dark Lord of the Sith" or teh ultimate "Sith Master", it's beneath him at this point. What does the title grant him that he does not have without it? Nothing significant, his supporters would stay loyal to him without the title, the only one who knows anything about it is Dooku, and he's in it for the long haul.

This is a guy who has played the nice old man in front of the Jedi and the entire galaxy for decades, I think his admittedly massive ego can handle Maul's challenge for title of "Dark Lord of the Sith". It's Maul's mucking things up (though I question how much Maul is really getting in the way) that he can't stand for, not Maul bragging to no one who cares that he's the "True Dark Lord of the Sith".

If TCW claims that Sidious is out to defend his title like some wrestling villain, they'd be wrong. I hope they don't cite Sidious' pride as his main motivation

What makes this really hard for me to swallow is:

a) Maul isn't much of a threat. Seriously, this "vision" of his is incredibly short-sighted. If Maul were smart, and he's not, he'd wait and do the same thing to Sidious (and even Kenobi) that Sidious did to the Republic and the Jedi.
b) Dooku, perhaps with Grievous and a boat load of battle droids to take care of the riff raff, should be able to handle Maul. But I can't depend on TCW for that.

 

Sure but even then there's nothing saying Maul wouldn't have been able to figure it out on his own. Pretty sure to be an assassin you'd have to have some wits about you. We've seen from this arc that he has a brain up there, I wouldn't put it past him to be inquisitive about his master's plans. This is hardly a new thing in the EU, Zannah was constantly keeping an eye on Bane, watching for any sign of weakness.

 

So Darth Maul was never trained to be a true Sith? Oh, Plagueis... you old arrogant fool.

 

Of course Maul knows that Sidious is Palpatine. In TPM, the two of them are having a discussion on Palpatine's balcony.

The pirates did not 'own' Maul. Savage was injured, and the pirates had turned against them. They were outnumbered, and a Jedi was after them, what else were they supposed to do apart from run? In the end a lucky shot took Maul's leg, but apart from that they did not suffer any more injuries, and managed to escape, while in the process taking out some of the pirates.

 

..........and you can stop right there.

 

Not really, since some have claimed that Sidious has something to prove.

 

In James Luceno's short story End Game, it said that Maul knew fully that Darth Sidious was also Senator Palpatine, and he also uncovered on Naboo that Palpatine answered to an individual named 'Hego Damask', and he began to wonder what exactly his role as a Sith was. In the Darth Plagueis novel, Maul voices concern that he does not know fully how to carry on the Sith imperative if Sidious where to die somehow, though he does understand that the war is with the Jedi and the goal was to tear apart the Republic. This is confirmed in Revenge, when Maul mentions the Clone Wars 'began without him'.

 

Agreed. He has nothing to prove, but everything to protect.

 

I think Maul is big threat to Sidous mostly coz Maul wants to form third force in the galaxy,opposed to Republic and separatist and that could change a lot of things for Sidious.

 

Yah. I think he is A big threat. Someone told me that in the book for this episode Sidious calls Maul A rival. This episode is going to be the best one yet.

 

Doesn't that make my smarmy declaration MORE true? Or did I blow the joke when I forgot to include this-> ?



EDIT:
All of the Bonus Maul Shorts are on Nook. Took them awhile to load the correct/updated version of TPM, but I pounded their CS dept until they got it right.

 

Once you've read it, we can chat up a few points in the old PT spot if you like.

 

Exactly. This is why I agree with CT-867-5309 's post. Sidious should only care about protecting his plan, not the "Sith Lord championship belt" (). But the plan is a big deal to protect, and Maul is in a unique position to screw it up.

 

I want to see the ratings for this episode. Actually id be interested to see how well this whole arc is doing.

 

I don't know if it's the voice acting or what, but there is something that really bothers me about Duchess Satine and I can't put my finger on it. I guess she just rubs me the wrong way.

BTW, I read on Wookieepedia that her last name is Kryze. It's that pronounced Cry-Z. I'm sure it's not pronounced Crazy even though that's what she is.

 

She REALLY wore on me in the last episode...

I think the character at this point is so wrapped up in her ideals that she doesn't see she's not fit to rule anymore.

 

Maul is a threat simply because he's not under Palpatine's control. With Palpatine, we're talking about a guy that insists that EVERY Jedi - even those that aren't technically Jedi but still have Jedi training (younglings and padawans) - MUST die, or else he believes there will be endless war. He fears the threat that harmless children today might pose years down the road. The CIS and Republic are indirectly and directly under Palpatine's control. A well trained Force user that Sidious trained himself that is no longer under his control is a threat to him now.

When it comes to protecting his identity, I don't really think there's much of a risk in Maul releasing it. IMO it's remarkably stupid that Maul doesn't expose Sidious, since it would make more sense to light a powder keg under Dooku and Sidious' butts by exposing their conspiracy, destabilizing each government, and THEN taking them out. But instead he seeks to unite 2,000 neutral systems and somehow sees that 2,000 systems will render both the CIS and Republic as obsolete. If Maul was going to expose Palpatine, I feel like he would have done it already. He had multiple opportunities to tell the Jedi. At which point he could have de-stabilized the Republic by creating a rift between the Jedi and Palpatine's regime.

Of course Maul can't expose Sidious, since we know how things play out in ROTS. But I still would have thought that it's an elephant in the room as to why Maul doesn't. It would make the most sense, and TCW hasn't addressed why he doesn't.

If they truly play the angle that Maul wants to be Sidious' apprentice again, then it would make sense that Maul wouldn't jeopardize Palpatine's plan and would instead just seek to take out Dooku. But I get the impression that Maul's claim that he wishes to be an apprentice again is just a desperate lie because he fears that Sidious will kill him. So currently I just feel it's painfully awkward that Maul hasn't used the greatest weapon at his disposal to hurt Palpatine's position.

 

Yeah, she is quite annoying.

 

Perfect.

 

I wonder why the Twilight is in such a bad shape. We haven't seen it since the first season and it's like this now; has it seen much off-screen action or did a stowaway Jawa on Coruscant get his hands on it?

 

Dooku wasn't allowed to have an apprentice because Sidious was concerned that Dooku could be plotting to use her to usurp him. Palpatine could keep Maul as an apprentice, but that would have to remain a secret from Dooku, and ideally Maul would be led to believe that Dooku would be killed.

If they are aware of each other, then that means that they would be aware that Sidious had betrayed them, which gives Sidious twice the trouble.

I know some have argued that there isn't a snowflake's chance in hell that Maul and Dooku would cooperate, but if there was a mutual goal to take out Sidious, I would think that they would both be intelligent enough to work together.

Dooku and Maul may hate each other, but such is the relationship of the Sith. An apprentice is supposed to hate the master. If Dooku were Maul's master, Maul's hatred of Dooku would serve him well. And if Dooku hated Maul for killing Qui-Gon, what better revenge than to essentially make his apprentice's killer his new apprentice (more like a slave)?

That's pretty much why I don't suppose Sidious will want to use Maul in an apprentice capacity. There is a danger if Dooku finds out, or if Maul finds out that Sidious has no intention of killing Dooku. It really only works if, like Tenebrous, Sidious keeps a second apprentice that Dooku is completely unaware of.

While I suspect Maul will survive, Maul's resurrection and his teaming up with Savage was all facilitated by Talzin, whom Filoni has assured has not been forgotten about. I figure a Talzin-Maul alliance is more likely than a Sidious-Maul, unless Talzin wishes for such an alliance as a deception to ultimately kill Sidious.