Full Series The Clone Wars - 5.16 - Lawless - discussion thread

He probably was taunting Obi-Wan in hopes of something even worse, maybe pushing Satine in front of him at the last minute and Obi-Wan accidentally killing her when charging at Maul. If I was a Sith Lord it's what I would do. What horrible way to live knowing you killed the person you loved.

 

But even then hate = power to a Sith. Vader killing Padme might suck for Vader, but it's going to make him a better Sith in the eyes of Palpatine, and thus a better apprentice. If Maul just wants revenge on Obi-Wan, giving him Sith pointers on how to tap into his power and become stronger (and he even points out that it will give him strength) just seems odd.

 

Obi-Wan is an obstacle for Palpatine in his pursuit of Anakin. He has to get Obi-Wan out of the picture or create so much distrust there that there is no hope of Obi-Wan keeping him on the light side. It would make sense to do everything in his power to get Obi-Wan out of the way, if you strip everything away from Anakin that he cares about then you have a broken man willing to do anything and not caring who it affects.

 

Alright, I'm with you.

How can Palpatine remove Obi-Wan from the picture?

One thing he's already been doing is undermining Obi-Wan's training by stroking Anakin's ego.

 

Shoulda hunted Obi-Wan's ass down on Mandalore while he had the chance.

 

I would think that it would be fairly easy to get Obi-Wan out of the way, the trick would be doing it in a way that doesn't alienate Anakin from Palpatine. For instance, "Palpatine's intelligence" is what leads Obi-Wan to Grievous. He could just as easily send Obi-Wan on a wild bantha chase and have Dooku set a trap for him that gets him killed. The problem there would be that even if it worked, if Anakin knew that Palpatine essentially dropped the ball and got Obi-Wan killed, that might be counter productive.

 

I also really like Bo-Katan in this episode. I was impressed how freshing Bo-Katan is compared to other TWC female characters.
There's a short moment when Bo-Katan brushes her hair after watching Obi-Wan successfully launching his jetpack for the first time. I am glad this "unnecessary" scene was not cut from such a fast-paced and action-packed episode so that we can see this naturally feminine moment of Bo-Katan.

 

Die to Dooku? Yes. Die to Grievous? I'm not so sure. I figured Palpatine wanted Grievous dead at that point. It would then force the Jedi to play their hand against Palpatine once the war was more-or-less over and Palpatine can turn that to his advantage to justify Order 66. If Obi-Wan died aboard the Invisible Hand, I figure someone else would still be sent against Grievous to finish him off. I don't think Grievous was intended to get out alive.

 

Best. Lightsaber. Fight. Ever.

 

Sidious knows the truth - Topically-applied fluoride doesn't prevent tooth decay. It does render teeth detectible by spy satellite.

 

I thought it was too short. The duel begins near Maul's throne then the next thing you know they've already battled across the room and Savage is hurling Sidious off the balcony. It felt like there was something cut.

 

There definitely was.

 

Watched the full episode for a second time and I absolutely loved it. A step up from Shades of Reason, at the same time I think they should of done a better job of having it been some time since that episode, a couple of weeks maybe even months. At the same time, I feel like this arc could of used another episode.

Obi-Wan's light humor at the beginning was a nice touch to a dark episode too, TCW at times can do humor very well, especially when it comes to Obi-Wan.

The confrontation between Maul and Obi-Wan is interesting because Maul was obviously trying to get some anger and hatred out of him, he did it in Revenge and wanted to see how far he could push him. Obi-Wan being the Jedi we all know and love him for obviously doesn't fall for it and fires back, Satine was always going to die during this scene. It was too perfect of an opportunity to finally get his revenge on Obi-Wan, I'm not gonna kill you but I'm gonna kill someone so important to you it will break you while you sit in exile in my jail cell. The only other person at the time that could of had this effect on Obi-Wan is Anakin...and well he can't be used here. Probably my favorite scene in the episode until Maul senses Sids

Bo Katan is becoming a favorite of mine, she's looking for what is best for Mandalore, Katee is one of the best guest voice actors we've had on the show and I can't wait to see more of her, next season will probably be an invasion of Mandalore from the Republic. Is Maul out of power there? Is Almec still in charge? What's going on with the crime lords? So many unanswered questions and I actually like it because we'll be returning to Mandalore, hopefully by next season too. I'm not sure how I feel about her and Satine being sisters, she obviously disagreed with her ideas of pacifism but at the same time she was her best option, she needs Maul and Almec out of power and Satine can help with that.

Now the duel, amazing. In terms of quality it was better then Vizsla v.s Maul because just how perfect they made it. Sids movements were absolutely flawless, he was the beast we saw in ROTS against Yoda, his movements so fluid, he was so agile, all over the place and you could see how much fun he was having. He doesn't get to do this often, might as well let loose and have some fun. Even when he got pushed off the balcony by Oppress, he was laughing and enjoying himself while he force pulled them down with him. I loved when he got Oppress 1v1 how much he toyed with him, this was someone who has taken pretty much everyone out with ease since he's been introduced. Here Sid is toying with him, he even didn't have his lightsabers ignited for a bit.

I feel like they are definitely going to make Maul a tragic/sympathetic character. He truly cared for Oppress. I have no idea what they'll do with the character now though.

Also for the argument why no one else could sense him. Sids has become so strong, he only allows himself to be sensed when he wants to. Maul didn't sense him until he was right outside his door. Even while fighting he probably kept everything condensed. Maybe Obi-Wan could of sensed him if he wasn't going through such emotional turmoil and didn't have his mind on other things. He failed to save Satine and needed to get out of there. His mind was too clouded.

 

Wow. In no particular order:
+ Abercrombie tribute - well done.
+ Seeing Korkie and pals once more - establishes that Satine has a family, for those who've forgotten. Korkie getting bashed in the head and then being rescued by said pals (? we can assume that happened?)
+ I had to laugh at Maul's look of astonishment as the Twilight gives a wonderful spectacle in its demise nice to see the ship again, however briefly
+ comic relief with the mechanical recalcitrance of the Twilight and Obi-Wan's near face plant when the strut lurches
+ seeing the Hardeen vest again *breathes heavily*
+ Satine's urging Obi-Wan to stay true to his principles, as she did to hers, even to death. *not to say that she did awfully well as a ruler, though. Why not call for help as soon as the Crime Lords attacked? She seemed to have given in to despair and not listened to her advisors. Aren't there mercenaries out there?*
+ Savage. Just, Savage. His death and Maul's reaction to it touched me. The green mist ... ah, me.
+ Palps ordering his ship and actually treating Maul as a rival, without trash talking "Oh, you're not a threat to Big Scary Me!!" Sids coming to the planet himself.
+ Obi-Wan's stunned 'No' as Savage and Maul appear from the smoke and his tenderness with Satine's body, and the kiss to her dead hand. Even if she had never gotten over him and he had gotten over her, such devotion to their past deserved acknowledgement. And he gave it.
+ The duel. The fall when Sidious pulled Savage and Maul with him.


- The big battle at the end, not really sure who was fighting whom for a moment.
- Use of 'Imperial March.' Anivader was not in the ep.
- Maul's whimpering at the end, and the sickening thought that he, like Venamis, will be used in ghastly experiments to find out how he survived bisection.
- hoping that there is not Bo-Ka-nobi plotline upcoming. Give him a gap year from romances, writers! Working relationship, okay.

 

This episode really shows how Obiwan is in control of his emotions and how different he is from Anakin. Unlike Anakin, Obiwan losing someone he cares about, or the fear of losing someone, does not drive him into evil, such as entering the darkside, and slaughtering the people responsible for his loss out of anger/revenge. He never even tried to find Maul to kill for revenge after he escaped.

It really shows how Obiwan is really a good man. More so then Anakin. And that he is stronger then Anakin because Obiwan never fell. Anakin is weaker, because if Anakin was forced to watch Maul murder Padme, i fear he would turn dark (perhaps even blame the jedi for her death).

 

Palps needs Obi-Wan, Ahsoka and Padme out of the picture. Maybe even Rex to an extent.

On board of the Invisible Hand, Palps can see that Anakin still cares very much for Obi-Wan and not even his influence on him, "leave him or we'll never make it," still doesn't measure up with what Anakin see's in Obi-Wan. I feel right there he knows Obi-Wan needs to get off planet, so his "intelligence" gets Obi-Wan off planet. If he dies against Grievous? Awesome. Grievous can be handled with later. Even if he doesn't die, he is off planet and he was the only one who could of stopped everything from happening besides Yoda. Yoda and Obi-Wan needed to be off planet or dead for Anakin to turn.

I feel like Palps will have a direct influence on Ahsoka's death, disappearance or whatever. She needs to go too. The more Anakin loses, the easier it will be for him to convert.

 

I guess this episode proves that he indeed was hiding his true form.

 

She isn't a hero. A hero does not follow an evil man, and believe in his ideology, and ideology that is extremely pro-war. I don't think Satine's pacfisit ideology was good for Mandalore, but neither is gung ho pro war mentality either.

If Pre Vizsla had not died, she would be his right hand man, and still be working with evil and have no problem with this corrupt government SHE HELPED put into place.

She had no problem following Pre Vizsla orders in attacking/burning a town of innocents.

She had no problem working with a terrorist group.

Just because she disagrees with Maul, and tries to fight him and his men, doesn't make her good or even a hero.

Just because someone fights evil, doesn't make them good simply because they are fighting wrongdoers (evil vs evil happens all the time)

Now if Starbuck in TCW showed regret for her past sins, and realized that what she had done in the past was wrong, and strives to do good and make a better future for Mandalore, then she is a hero, and a good person.

 

Holy crap.

Best episode of the entire show. I don't see how the finale of this season can top this, I really don't.

 

To me, to be a true hero, someone has to be a good person.

And if someone does not care that they committed evil in the past, and doesn't even regret burning up a village of innocents, and has no problem with working with an evil faction, then i don't see how this person can be a "hero".

Yes some people may view this person as a "hero", if said people were benefited in some way by this "hero" or perhaps believes in the "heroes" beliefs. But then again, plenty of evil tyrants in the real world, have been seen by some as "heroes", that doesn't make them so.

I'm sure some Separatists see Dooku has a hero, but Dooku is still a villain.....still an evil man.

 

I don't really see Pre as all that evil, at least no more evil than most leaders. But to be honest, I have almost no memory of the S2 Mando episodes.

I also don't see the Mandalorians desire to be warriors evil, either.

I don't see the government under Pre as anymore corrupt than any other government. I actually think it would have been less corrupt than the one it replaced, Satine's government.

So, helping put that government in place was a good deed, imo. Hell, even though Pre got whacked, Maul soon followed, making for a destruction/rebirth cycle that will likely be better than what Satine had going.

Yeah, I don't know what the hell was going on there. I like to pretend that episode doesn't exist.

Leia had no problem working for a terrorist group.

Of course not, it's just one act. But it was a good act, a heroic act, the right act, the noble act. Imo.

But fighting evil is good, no?

And it's not the first time she's fought evil, imo. Fighting Satine's government was fighting evil.

I saw a hint of remorse over the situation Mandalore was in.

Besides the terrible "A Friend In Need", I don't think she's done a whole lot of wrong. I think taking down Satine's government and resisting Maul's rule was was her striving to do good and make a better future for Mandalore, I think that was the whole purpose of Death Watch.

I don't see Death Watch as an evil faction, I see the oppressive, corrupt, ineffectual New Mandalorians as evil.