Full Series The Clone Wars - 5.17 - Sabotage - discussion thread

"Dude, I know they teach us that it's all midichlorians and stuff...but sometimes I think the Force is, like, this mystical presence that surrounds and penetrates us, y'know?"
"That's so deep, man. You should teach that stuff."
"You think?"
"Yeah, kids need to learn that man."

 

The midichlorians aren't the Force. That's a misconception. They serve more as organisms that help Jedi and Sith manipulate the Force. They're also the reason why not everyone is able to use it.

 

Isn't that my point? Palpatine and the Senate should be taking the blame. The Jedi would be part of those millions of people.

Palpatine and the Senate are leading the war. They are the Heads of State and control the government. The Jedi have no political powers and don't have a seat in the Senate. The Jedi don't create laws or policy. The Jedi follow the orders and commands of Palpatine and the Senate. Just because the Jedi lead troops, does not mean that they are leading the war. And there are non-Jedi and clone officer leading troops too.

But then, by that logic, the Jedi are under the jurisdiction of Palpatine and the Senate, and they have no power to end the war.

The top commander of the Republic military are Palpatine and the Senate. By the time the war ends Palpatine will have complete control over the military. The Jedi as well as the clones and non-Jedi officers follow the chain of command, using a similar real-life military rank structure. Palpatine and the Senate on top, then from admirals and generals down to privates. Palpatine outranks Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan outranks Anakin. Anakin outranks Cody. Cody outranks Rex. Rex outranks Fives. And so on. How Padawan commanders rank with clone commanders, I don't know? We have seen in this show that Palpatine can give commands to the Jedi, overrule Jedi orders, and order clones around. The clones are not the Jedi's private army.

The Kaminoans created the clone army. We assume Sifo-Dyas ordered them, but he died around the same time. The other Jedi had no idea what was going on. Where is the illegality and where is subverting democracy? Seems the average Republic citizen would want to thank the Jedi. Without the clones, the CIS would have subjugated the Republic.

Most of the CIS is made up traitors to the Republic. Why single out just Dooku?

But you're exaggerating the situation. Obi-Wan followed Jango to Geonosis for find out why he tried to assassinate Padme. He found out Dooku and Gunray were behind the assassination attempt, and that they and the CIS leaders were planning an attack on the Republic. He informed the Jedi and the Senate, before his capture. The Senate gave Palpatine emergency powers so he could create an army. Obviously, he turned the clone army into the Republic army. The Jedi went after Dooku and the others. Notice, they didn't come in blasting. For all they know, Obi-Wan was dead, and Anakin and Padme weren't even suppose to be there. They acted more like police going to arrest criminals. Dooku ordered the droids and Geonosians to attack the Jedi. The clones were later sent in.

I agree with most of this except the "recalcitrant" part. When were the Jedi being recalcitrant in the public eyes. Their major complaint was they felt Palpatine was abusing his powers and the Senate wasn't doing a thing to stop him. In ROTS cut scenes we see the Loyalist Senators were hesitant to talk to the Jedi because the felt the Jedi were too closely aligned with Palpatine. Seems the major public opinion was Palpatine and the Jedi were on good terms, even thought the Jedi were really turning against him.

 

Looks like Commander Fox is gonna get a bigger role in this arc, because he's one of the four characters in the picture for this arc on StarWars.com http://starwars.com/explore/the-clone-wars/

 

Yah! Clones!

The Jedi are under the jurisdiction of Palp and the Senate right? That's why peace keepers took command of an army and became soldiers isn't it? The Jedi may not have the actual ability to end the war. It is a civil war after all. However, folks can protest the Jedi to do a better job and protest what they see as internal corruption. I think folks IU also get hung up on the Jedi's old role as peace keepers and may not separate them from that. Again, Jedi were the heroes called to end wars in the past. They are used to that and want the Jedi to do both. Now look at them. On top of that in "Padawan Lost" if you listen to Palp's dialogue on the video billboard he is addressing fears that the Jedi are dragging the war out to gain power. People always come up with conspiracies and outs to place the blame. People on Coruscant apparently can't take hot showers or read when it gets dark anymore. Life's tough. Honestly people IRL who take what they have for granted would freak out if that happened. I really wanted to forget "Pursuit of Peace" but if "Corruption" is relevant now...

 

I'd like to know how much the general populous knows about the origins of the Clone Wars. Are they aware that it was the Jedi who ordered the clone army, years before the war began? Are they aware of how the Battle of Geonosis (the first one) went down?

What has Dooku told the Separatist Parliament? Do they know about how the war started? Did that info spread to the general populous, as a deliberate machination of Dooku (and by extension, Palpatine).

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Fox kills Ahsoka in this arc.

 

Yeah... that's not gonna happen.

 

The Trivia slideshow explains an innocent person would assume that Anakin meant "Someone made the bomb for him."

 

Already issued a full withdrawal of my comment for that

 

The farther this goes, the dumber the Jedi look...

Must be the whole point.

 

From TPM onwards Prequel Jedi have never shown to be the brightest lightbulbs in the pack

 

Good question. If info the Jedi ordered the Clone Army leaked that would probably further lead to distrust. Now we know that the Republic needed an army. Does the populous know that? Really if Rex can ask, "What is the point of all this?" so can John Smith. And probably not. How many people can give an account of how the battle of Mazar-i sharif went down?

I imagine the Separatist Parliament and folks like Mina Bonteri when she was alive know even less. Their side is more about revolution and escaping corruption so the goal is atleast still clear just as the Republic's is keeping it together.

I'm gonna be really surprised if that happens.

 

What's that? Sounds interesting

 

I would think they would have to at least slightly get into the origins of the clone army. "TWIST everyone! We have a surprise intergalactc war but TWIST we have a clone army ready to go for some reason! TWIST it was ordered by some obscure Jedi! Who knows why they want an army but they're letting us borrow it!"

 

The droid did it.

 

Drunk_Lando

Yes, I agree, most of what you said is a more accurate assessment of the situation. But we are seeing things from an omniscient viewpoint. The average galactic citizen doesn't know all the intricate details and subtle distinctions that we, as viewers, are privy to. They would also probably be incapable of being as impartial as we are, given that they would actually be experiencing all these events as reality and having them interfere in their lives in all kinds of horrible inconvenient ways.

 

No, the Jedi were not under the jurisdiction of the Office of the Supreme Chancellor until the very last few days of the Clone Wars when the Security Act was amended, bringing both the Jedi Order and the Grand Army of the Republic (making Palpatine the Supreme Commander) directly under the chancellor (as per the ROTS novelization).

 

But who was the phone?

 

The droid did it in the library with a candlestick.

 

Wish I had more time but let me just say I loved this episode.

Not perfect but a straight forward gum shoe tale with some great touches (the hologram recreation, vague Mid East accent alluding to current events, seeing non-Jedi life in the temple, the gritty city scenes looked fantastic).

 

Lando - some great points. Just briefly I think the difference between say the US/President and the Republic/Jedi/Palpatine is that it seems clear to me that the Jedi are running the war for the Republic, and I'm not sure Palpatine is necessarily "Commander-in-Chief", in the concrete way that the American President is.

I guess you could also say that if the Joint Chief of Staffs or whatever had a convenient hangout temple office building, maybe people would stage rallies there.

You could also say people might be willing to protest the Jedi because they're less likely to experience reprisals.

 

But wouldn't the Jedi be held accountable to somebody like the Senate if not the Chancellor directly? If the Jedi don't have any to Andersen to then that would make them all the easier to the Populous to get suspicious of. The Maul arc stated Obi-wan had to get the Senate to authorize helping Mandalore. Who exactly was paying Letta's husband?

 

The Jedi answer to the Senate, and by extension the Chancellor, but they are not governed by them.

Like any other private security firm or church (in a weird mix of the two). They do whatever they do, so long as it is in the confines of the authority given to them by the law.

Until the last days of the Republic, at least, in which the ROTS novel explains that bringing the Jedi under direct control of the Chancellor's office is part of the same bill designed to replace the Senators with Moffs.

 

I'm more or less talking about whats going on with the chain of command now and who is accountable for what. It would seem even more suspicious from the perspective of someone IU to have contractors in charge of fighting a war.