ST Who's The Baddie?

Yeah, there are Force Ghosts and all that jazz for the good guys, but they are still dead. It's more of a happy afterlife. A Sith-resurrection would make them more like "A horrible thing from beyond the grave that should not be!" ala Frankenstien. Ups the drama because, y'know, sinning against the good and pure Force Ghost nature. Doesn't hurt the drama, it makes it more intense because, like the Terminator or The Thing, IT. CAN NOT DIE! AHHHHHH!!!! RUN!!! And so forth.

 

Villains get less scary after they are killed. Because if they are killed, it means they already were dealt with once. It's like how in Dark Empire the Emperor was far less impressive than in the movies (to me at least). I was so thoroughly unimpressed by him, I couldn't even bother to finish DEII and III.

 

Zombies would also be acceptable, yes. Or just buy the rights to 3 episodes of "The Walking Dead" and just overdub random lines about "Sith" and "jedi" and digitally put lightsabers in character's hands.

 

I will say, Dark Empire, for me, got a hell of a lot more retcon resonance and actually became more logical just because of Plaps whole Darth Plageuis / resurrection speech to Anakin in "Sith". Like his clone scheme in Dark Empire was the closest he could get to that, an abomination of Sith magic, his master's old ideas, and cloning. Probably why I'm so partial to the idea of Plagueis as the bad guy and I haven't even read the novel!

 

Darth Plagueis would be a great antagonist but then again it probably wont happen.
I just want an awesome villain, one like General Grievous, not some ******** ROTS & 2008 Clone wars Grievous but this Grievous.

THAT IS THE KIND OF VILLAIN I WONT IN MY MOTHER ****ING STAR WARS!!!!!!!!


*you need to review our list of disallowed words

 

LOL Lord Optimus!!!

At this point in movie speculation, the Darth Plagueis storyline is the only tangible thing that makes sense amongst the saga.

 

Dark Lord Humungus for the win! "Just walk away Luke....just walk away..."

 

Just walk away Plagueis nay sayers and we will spare your lives....just walk away and you shall keep your pride. Just walk away and we will let you pass...just walk away. But seriously, Plagueis with an army of Sith would be epic. If Lucas didnt write treatments for this then Arnt, after reading this thread, is undoubtedly doing so.....if not he better just walk away.

 

A guy who may be responsible for Anakin's birth, was Palpatine's master, and studied the art of cheating death sounds like a pretty iconic villain to me.

 

Can you support this?

Any argument against Plagueis in the ST that is supported by things like "because the Sith are gone" or anything Lucas has said over the years about the story is weak. The situation we have in speculating about the ST is basically that we were told there would be no more movies and that the story ended with Ep VI. But now we are being told that we will get more movies, and these movies will be continuation of the episodic story. This would mean that it's not going to introduce a profoundly new storyline. It would also mean that SOMETHING has been re-considered about how the story comes to close.

Thats not to say that he WILL be in the ST, but if you don't think he will, tell us what makes you think that.

 

Right? He's central to the entire Sith grand plan as well and was big on ending the rule of two which could open the door for an even more epic scenario. Imagine them being led by Plagueis:



Plagueis comes back to the flesh on Dathomir with his wisdom of the force and the help of Nightsisters darkside magic and builds a small army of sith starting with nightsisters and warriors from Darth Mauls tribe. Epic epic epic. Or he rebuilds the original Sith species on Korriban through his manipulation of midichlorians. I would think the Sith species would look something like this:

 

Exactly, all these Plagueis haters saying there is absolutely positively zero chance of Plagueis being the big bad guy seem ignorant and stubborn.

There was a time when the idea of Vader being Luke's father would have been preposterous.

Just 5 or 6 months ago nobody would have ever predicted that Lucas would sell out to Disney and we would be getting a Sequel Trilogy.

Even after the Disney announcement many people thought the possibility of Ford returning as Han were 3720 to 1.

We know next to nothing about the ST, but somehow these people know for sure Plagueis won't be the villain, I can't help but think of this clip.

 

Perva, I don't want to speak for other *pro-Plagueis* members on the thread, but for myself it's not about bringing a dead character back to life. It's not about inventing a new galactic messiah. It's about a character, that I question, ever actually died in the first place. A character, by means yet to be revealed, has survived since his *disappearance* near the conclusion of TPM time-wise. Has stood at a distance while his powerful, temperamental, narcissistic apprentice incorporating a distorted, unbalanced, variant Sith method tore the galaxy to hell for 30 years. Making a majority of galactic citizens 1.) Miserable. 2.) Rebellious against status quo rulership. 3.) Haters, or at the very least highly skeptical, of any Jedi. And yes, Plagueis was worried about Anakin. He was not sure if he created him, or if the Force pushed back and created him. I'm not assuming you have not actually read the book, but the amount of shoehorning with Plagueis' tale juxtaposed against the saga as a whole... In the novel it is rather obvious the amount of work and thought that went into seamlessly weaving Plagueis' story into both the saga and EU. No contradictions.

With my personal feelings aside, I digress. The novel, "Darth Plagueis", is an expanded universe story. That has been a sticking point for some in the past. EU material is generally not considered CANON.

Two things from this:

1.) As I have stated earlier, the "Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise", was not only on film, it was the hook that started Anakin down the dark path. Splitting hairs on material being "canonical", on the DVD audio commentary for ROTS during the Opera scene where Palpatine is telling Anakin the story, Rick McCallum speaks up and says (I'm going to paraphrase since its been a few years since I've seen it), "This is the hook! Palpatine is telling Anakin where he came from." The novel leaves this mystery open as well. Whether this character returns or not, one cannot deny Plagueis had a major influence on the beginning of the Skywalker family.

Did Plagueis create Anakin?

If so, then the door of possibility is opened that he could re-create himself, play possum till rigor set it, or any other variation of resuming life.

Did the Force create Anakin as a countermeasure to Plagueis and Sideous' meddling?

If so Plagueis, who by the end of the book was adding to his midi-chlorian count, healing old wounds, making his flesh young again. One who was always a step ahead of Sideous, deciding it would be better to slip through the cracks and wait this Anakin thing out. To disappear as it were until a better time to implement the true plan. Why share your immortality gift with an eventual enemy? Not very *wise*.

2.) If, as many claim, they want a "fresh" enemy. A new Sith, or some other kind of danger that hasn't been mentioned before. Yet, a villain (threat) that has the power to propel the overall saga story forward by making the PT and OT struggles relevant in the ST. That's a pretty tall order. When it comes down to it, devising an *unknown* threat to the protagonists of the saga is harder than it seems.

Let's say Darth Hemlock shows up in Episode 7. He says he's been around for awhile outside the Empire controlled galaxy. Everyone will say, "How can this be? Anakin destroyed the Sith!!! He's the Balance!! He had to eradicate all Sith to bring the Force back into balance!!! (Which is a philosophical contradiction IMO.) This doesn't make sense!!! Does not compute!!!!"

Or let's say an old, charred, one armed Mace Windu shows up with 7 Dark Jedi that make up the "new" Jedi Council. A group that not only doesn't recognize Luke and his potential pupils as legitimate Jedi trained in the classical fashion, but see the Skywalkers' not as heroes, but as extensions of the Jedi Order destroyer Anakin. They and their kind needing to be eradicated to bring the Order back to prominence. The huge threat to Luke being his short apprenticeship becomes a liability against this group. They know more about being a Jedi than Luke does. If this happened people will say, "Yoda told Luke he's the last of the Jedi, how can this be?!?! This doesn't make sense!!! Does not compute!!!!!"

Let's be honest, we got a series of movies that suffer from a bad case of the "shoulda woulda couldas". We love them, despite the flaws that stem from an astonishing lack of commitment to closure. ROTJ is not the end of this saga. Anything that has been said in dialogue is now up for revision. Presumably, we'll have to accept Anakin / Vader and even Luke's work in a new light as cameras roll on a series too tough to die.

Which is an easier pill to swallow?

Developing an enemy threat that has ties to the former films through a shout-out in the most recently created SW film and showcasing his life in a major novel that refreshes his name in pop culture?

Or a villain in the vein of the two I mentioned earlier?

The character of Plagueis is not a rehash of Sideous, as much as a Sith Lord in the vein of KOTOR is a retread of Sideous. Sideous was evil. He enjoyed it. He did a few beastly things that even gave Plagueis pause. Continuing the course Anakin charted by embracing the dark to ultimately be good, we may see in the next trilogy, regardless of the villain, a different approach to being a Sith. Not unlike the Universal Force and the Living Force utilized by the Jedi. Plagueis is interesting because he used the Force as a means to his ends. He followed his passions. He wasn't driven by blind ambition to rule the galaxy, nor was he as enamored with "the power aspect" of the darkside as much as Sideous and Vader were. Conquest wasn't Plagueis' primary motivator. No doubt the reason his master Tenebrous had questioned his worth as a Sith Lord, and even Sideous' assumptions that he'd become greater than his master because of Plagueis' seeming disinterest in galactic affairs. If you are wanting a "new" type villain, with a different motivation, that poses a real threat to Luke, this is your guy.

 

Seriously, when shooting down Plagueis as the villain offer up a better scenario. I simply can't imagine a better scenario, I can imagine different scenario's but not better ones. A villain with no connection to the last six films that will rival the threat of Sidious/Vader...that's a tall order. We're basically left with:

1.Invading alien horde hell bent on destruction (not star wars, not really. Star Trek?)
2. Sith frozen in carbonite for 1000 years (intriguing idea but it would introduce a villain completely detached from the prior six films and would take a lot of back story)
3. Rouge Jedi from the new Jedi order (weak concept, but I would be open to a scenario that somehow makes that person more of a threat than Sidious/Vader and stronger with the darkside without Sith training)
4. Another Skywalker falling to the darkside (a tad repetitive but with good, no, GREAT writing it might work)
5. A non dark side villain such as Thrawn (to me that would be a weak continuation of the Empire story without the key mythology)
6. The Republic fighting crime lords and such with the help of the Jedi with no Sith or dark side force users at all (maybe for a TV show)
7. Whatever you can think of....?

 

Huh? What does it matter if anyone remembers that line? If they create a new villain then guess what? There's a 100% chance that no one ever heard his name mentioned--not even once--in any movie. But the fact remains that Plagueis has a back story that's intimately involved with the Sith, the 'Grand Plan' to overthrow the Republic, Emperor Palpatine, and even Anakin himself. Plagueis was the 'Phantom Menace' pulling the strings in Episode 1, and he was the master of the villain who prevailed over the whole Saga.

The fact that Plagueis was mentioned in ROTS doesn't mean he should be the villain of the new trilogy, but I don't understand why it means he can't be. If Plagueis does turn out to be the villain, then Palpatine's line adds a layer of subtle foreshadowing that makes the story even more interesting.

Also, I think it's unfair to presume we're talking about bringing an old villain back to life when in fact we're discussing the possibility that he never died in the first place. The back of the Darth Plagueis novel reads: "Plagueis was the most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived. But could he be the only one who never died?". That's where this thread comes in. If Plagueis didn't die, then maybe he will resurface as the villain of the new trilogy. No one knows exactly how he might have survived, why he has been absent from the Saga thus far if he did, or how he would come back into the picture afterwards. The 'anti-Plagueis' advocates keep demanding answers to those questions but the specifics aren't really relevant to the theory or speculation of it. If Plagueis is the new villain, then the story writers will develop some plot mechanism to explain that.

Plagueis isn't an irrelevant or throwaway villain and I don't get the feeling anyone here is necessarily trying to 'shoe horn him in'. His role is pretty huge and he would work well as a final bad guy. We're not just talking about a new trilogy--we're talking about episodes 7, 8, and 9 here. Plagueis is intimately involved with many important aspects of the Saga.

There would be a greater sense of finality and continuity in our heroes defeating the "most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived" and "the only one who never died"--the 'Phantom Menace'--the Master of the Saga's main villain and the man responsible for Anakin (the main character and tragic villain of the whole franchise) being brought into life...the Sith Lord who beat death and knew all the secrets Sidious and Vader could never learn...who came from the Bane line of Sith who have been in hiding for a thousand years to execute the 'Grand Plan'...than for some random new villain to pop out of nowhere who has no connection to franchise until that point.

That's just my opinion. I know there's a good chance the guy will have nothing to do with the new trilogy, and am prepared for that. Darth Plagueis is probably just a really good EU book. But I don't agree with many of the reasons people have for being against the idea. They act like the prospect of Plagueis being the main villain is totally random and uncalled for when that's not really the case--and they act like a new bunch of Sith, dark siders, or alien invaders are somehow less random and uncalled for.

 

Very compelling Bullhead CIty & Death-T

Just the idea of Plagueis has so many possibilities.

That, plus some other possibilities Air Jedi posted in the Whose The Baddie thread.

1. He never actually died.
2. Resurrected as himself.
3. Reborn in a new force sensitive body.
4. Mentoring evil force ghost.
5. Possessing evil force ghost.

I'm open to whichever of these would produce the most intriguing story.

 

Word. I mentioned earlier in this thread that a possible Plagueis scenario might resemble Voldemort's return in the Harry Potter series.

I would also like to add that it seems a lot of 'anti-Plagueis' advocates presume that a new trilogy can't feature him as a main villain because the audience doesn't know enough about him. Like you would have to read the book to know who he is. That's just silly. No one read a book about who Darth Vader was before they watched A New Hope for the first time. The movies would properly introduce the character and provide all the back story we need. If this does play out, I suspect Plagueis would play the mysterious behind-the-scenes character in episode 7. Bits of his story would be revealed throughout the course of the trilogy, and in episode 8 (the middle of the trilogy) his identity is fully revealed to the audience, perhaps along with his 'master plan'. The big three are too old to face the new threat and put their trust in the next generation to put an end to the nemesis once and for all, with one or more of them possibly dying.

 

Things mentioned in the OT that had major implications in the following trilogy:

Owen Lars afraid of Luke becoming like his father.

The Clone Wars

An old man claiming he was once a Jedi Knight.

The Senate

Luke being too old to train.

Yoda having his own Council.

Yoda saying Luke's father had much anger in him.

 

That's my thought exactly. The book is what it is, a back story, an explaination of the new villain. Dooku didn't even appear in AOTC till near the end of the second act, though he was spoken of extensively throughout the movie. The Emperor is very briefly mentioned in ANH, seen in a 1-800-COLLECT commerical in ESB, and finally fleshed out for the audience in ROTJ. I would assume a similar unveiling of Plagueis in the ST. Doubtless there will be a new apprentice (ahem!, if not more...) that will mug the majority of screen time. That's a point I feel some are missing about Plagueis being in the ST. *IF* he is the main villain, you will still have your fan fantasies fulfilled by apprentice(s). There's nothing really exciting about Sideous visually when compared to Maul or Vader, though he's to be feared because he is their master.

 

Here's one of those possibilities:

What if something Plagueis did is the reason the Jedi can retain their identity in the Force?

 

Those arguments are all alright, I can see that. And if Plagueis is used, they can easily give him a new and better personality than that in the novel.
But ... it's the resurrections that really bother me. If Plagueis is shown as cheating death on screen then death will loose even more of its dramatic weight in future films. "Ghosts" are really the maximum I want to see when it comes to this. Death should be serious, death should be final, death should be scary. If death can be cheated, then we can never be sure whether a dead character returns in future movies or not. For me, this is a dealbreaker. I doubt there is much you could say that would make me ignore my SF-experience. I've seen death cheated so many times now and the story always suffered for it. I don't want to see this in Star Wars.

This can be cleared with a couple of exposition lines. The notion that the Sith alone bring unbalance to the force is fairly ridiculous anyway. The galaxy consists of trillions of beings. What brought unbalance to the force was imo a combination of the Sith and the oppression of the galactic empire everywhere in the galaxy. Darth Hemlock on his own wouldn't bring unbalance. He/She is only one person and he/she probably doesn't have a whole lot of political influence. I think the audience would understand this interpretation. It is fairly simple and it makes sense with both the PT and the OT.

Oh, c'mon. It's not that hard to introduce a new villain to the audience. Bond and other movieseries do it all the time. Plus "a couple" of years have passed. It's obvious something changed in this years. Maybe Darth Hemlock growing to adulthood?
And I admit I find it a bit funny that you would bring the "hard to swallow pill" argument while you propose a villain capable of cheating death. I wonder which pill is harder to swallow?
You see in this very thread there a a few people averse to the idea already.

Yea, Plagueis is Palpatine without the sadistic streak. But that's about it when it comes to differences. They both hide like rats. They both do political machinations. They both do grand, complicated plans.

By the way, I read the novel. Plagueis was all about ruling the galaxy. He is the one who set the grand plan in motion in the first place. In typical narcisstic fashion he also believed (just like Palpatine), the galaxy would be better off under Sith rulership.

As for the hunger for power, please give me a break. We're talking about a person researching into cheating death. Don't you think that has something to do with powerhunger?

 

nope, there were only 20 MASTERS that left the jedi order. "knights" there were a plenty

 

You know, Plagueis' death was pretty odd. It's like he allowed his death to happen or something. I'm starting to accept the idea that he might still be around. But the question that needs to be answered is: where was he all this time, and why did he stay hidden?

Maybe he only lusted for immortallity and not power over the galaxy?

 

I do not want a Skwalker/Solo or anyone else to fall to the Dark Side. Boring and already been done